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  1. #51

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    I am giving him credit for being endorsed by Joni Mitchell.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by voxsss
    best fucking live act fuck Off...hahahahah
    I was never a Madonna fan but today's pop is making her sound like a genius. I can actually listen to her a little now.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Over 60 double boomer?
    Over 60, bloomer. Grow some veggies if you can.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Has anyone watched the video?
    Yeah, I watched it. You should see the one where he analyzes Boston’s “More Than A Feeling” if you haven’t already. He isolates the vocals and the word impressive doesn’t even come close, IMHO.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Can not imagine George Benson's vocal with autotune. (or Al Jarreau, or Bobby McFerrin). Yes I know they obviously do not need it, but this does not mean they on pitch, every notes all duration. The diverge from the pitch (wait, what pitch, the well tempered?) many times intentionally in they phrasing, which is part of their artistic expression, with bend, and other nuances.

    If a performance needs to be pitch corrected, then how can we assume the singer has such a control on nuances, what shoud be the essence of the music, and her/his style and message. Those nuances could be there, even the main pitches are not fully correct, but who cares? Gary Peacock is terribly out of pitch from the beginning (at least compared to for example Charlie Haden), but who cares? Terribly bad idea to pitch correct him. Also Coltrane has many recordings with painfully out of pitch notes.

    so if a performance is pitch corrected that at least raises doubts what are we listening, music or a product?
    I think this is getting to the heart of the issue. Anyone with a good ear has noticed that the distinctive singing of Frank Sinatra was characterized by a flattening of vocal pitch, but it was made manifest with subtle inflection and phrasing, so done perfectly. Or similarly, consider the lilting slow motion vibrato of Joni Mitchell. Autotune would destroy these singers. How about autotune for correcting the blues solos of BB King or SRV? Let's go international and use it to straighten out all those Indian sitars, too.

    Anyone who has played in a string or horn section, or sang in a choir, will know that pitch phase lock is extremely undesirable. Even on the piano each key's hammer strikes multiple strings which are strictly not exactly in tune with each other, on purpose. The interference produces a desired slow phase cycle that allows the tone of the note to express a tone shape, or "profile" through its duration.

    Autotune is based on a fundamental misunderstanding, failing to grasp that music is intrinsically an art comprised of the substance of illusion. Misguided perfection doesn't support illusion.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    Yeah, I watched it. You should see the one where he analyzes Boston’s “More Than A Feeling” if you haven’t already. He isolates the vocals and the word impressive doesn’t even come close, IMHO.
    I think I've watched most of the WMTSG videos, if not all. They are always worth watching even if I'm not a fan of the song or band. It's a similar format to 'Classic Albums' albeit without the artist commentary which I always enjoyed (maybe Rick will get more commentary from the original artists like he did in the last video). I tend to find Rick's commentary to be quite good on the whole, but the main appeal is hearing those isolated tracks.

    There's a little bit too much emphasis on (classic, prog and alternative) rock for my tastes, but that's another issue, and he's probably catering to his audience. I'd like to hear more breakdowns of a wider diversity of genres.

    (It should actually be called What Makes this Track Great?, but that's another discussion)

  8. #57

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    "If a performance needs to be pitch corrected, then how can we assume the singer has such a control on nuances, what should be the essence of the music, and her/his style and message." Gabor

    "Also Coltrane has many recordings with painfully out of pitch notes." Gabor

    Hi, G,
    Great quotes! I often reminisce in these discussions how not only the music but the musicians have changed over the years. When I think of artists like Ella, Sarah, Billie, Johnny Hartman, Arthur Prysock, Joe Williams, and the talent they brought to the genre and compare them to the "jazz/pop" parakeets of today, the difference is glaring in that modern vocalists, for the most part, lack the voice, personality, and creativity of their predecessors. Perhaps, the exception is Lady Gaga ,who does have some chops, but she is hardly representative of a generation(s). "Nuance," as G says above is the "essence of music."
    In regards to Coltrane, as a former saxophonist, I ate, drank, and slept his music for years. His early music represents the more lyrical/melodic side of him before the sheets of sound/quasi-atonalism became his later trademark. And, it was during this period that Coltrane began experimenting with sound-- especially expanding the range of the instrument with bending notes, distortions of tone/pitch, and use of subtones/altissimo notes in his bag of goodies that became his, later, trademark. These elements gave his music the personality that said: "This is Coltrane."
    So, much is said about generational differences in music and most of the negative is true. My one criticism of most younger players is that they lack "soul"(as we said in my generation). They are great technicians, well-schooled, know the repertoire, but lack a personal voice that is especially evident when I hear them play ballads. And, IMO, this is partially the result of the lack of steady LIVE performance opportunities where they can develop their ideas, sound, and personality and partially the result of artistic development which does not mean playing 8 hours a day in a cubicle . . . but that's another discussion we've already visited. Here's Coltrane in one of the greatest albums ever produced. Notice at 1:39 and 2:17 (approx) his playing with pitch.
    If ya don't play live . . . you're not Jive . . .
    Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. How's that for generational????

    ?


    And, here's Chad Lefkowitz's(current generation) take of the same tune:
    Notice him exactly copying Trane's licks at 2:14 and 2:34 when he is playing in ballad tempo. Then, being a bopper and being uncomfortable without his comfort zone, he can't finish a ballad without bopping: 4:22 to 6:16 and the 6:54 to end. He does this because he's uncomfortable and it's damn difficult to write good poetry and stay within the ballad context. This is my point. Anyone can play fast. But your soul is revealed when you play a ballad. M

    P.S. And, for the record, I believe Chad is an accomplished musician and I featured him in one of my previous posts for talented young players. However, his road is long if he wants to walk in the shadow of Coltrane and he needs to become a total player M


  9. #58

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    I've been thinking a good bit about this and end of day and refrained from commenting until I made up my mind.

    I've decided that it's just "boomer" talk designed to pander to his "boomer" audience. And by "Boomer" I don't mean to the boomer generation, but I use it as a phrase for people stuck in the past trying pretend that the esthetic of their generation is the only right one.


    He makes some vague hints at producers helping bad singers sound good with autotune, but honestly so what?

    Back in the day you'd just fix bad notes by rerecording wee bits and pieces here and there. Remember that .. just start singing/playing along and tap in the one phrase that was butchered ... done in a split second .. nobody was rerecording the entire take from scratch in order to prove that the singer could sing.

    Then you had stuff like Milli Vanilli .. lol


    I don't really know what he is trying to say. It's not like no one knows how to sing these days ... auto tune or not the leading singer of today still totally slay. People today are in general technically much stronger than ever before

    In general it's funny how "Boomers" constantly swing from "this is too technically perfect and has no soul" to "People today have to cheat" .. Can you make up your mind?


    And mixed with vague accusations of cheating he gives example, but they are just silly. Are you really trying to tell me that Lenny Kravitz couldn't have done those backing vocals without autotune? .. Off course not, so then it's just a choice .. Be it artistic or just practical.


    So end of day Beato has stooped ultimate boomer level, where things are being judged as shitty cause they don't fit your boomer esthetic

    Sitting in 2021 and saying that a 1998 recording with Autotune sounds shitty is like staying that The Beano album from John Mayall's Bluesbreakers is just boring generic blues. Fly Away sounded fresh back in 1998


    End of day Fly Away was an international hit and much better selling single than Beato's own flagship "Carolina". So there is that too

    Fly Away (Lenny Kravitz song) - Wikipedia
    Carolina (Parmalee song) - Wikipedia

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    I've been thinking a good bit about this and end of day and refrained from commenting until I made up my mind.

    I've decided that it's just "boomer" talk designed to pander to his "boomer" audience. And by "Boomer" I don't mean to the boomer generation, but I use it as a phrase for people stuck in the past trying pretend that the esthetic of their generation is the only right one.


    He makes some vague hints at producers helping bad singers sound good with autotune, but honestly so what?

    Back in the day you'd just fix bad notes by rerecording wee bits and pieces here and there. Remember that .. just start singing/playing along and tap in the one phrase that was butchered ... done in a split second .. nobody was rerecording the entire take from scratch in order to prove that the singer could sing.

    Then you had stuff like Milli Vanilli .. lol


    I don't really know what he is trying to say. It's not like no one knows how to sing these days ... auto tune or not the leading singer of today still totally slay. People today are in general technically much stronger than ever before

    In general it's funny how "Boomers" constantly swing from "this is too technically perfect and has no soul" to "People today have to cheat" .. Can you make up your mind?


    And mixed with vague accusations of cheating he gives example, but they are just silly. Are you really trying to tell me that Lenny Kravitz couldn't have done those backing vocals without autotune? .. Off course not, so then it's just a choice .. Be it artistic or just practical.


    So end of day Beato has stooped ultimate boomer level, where things are being judged as shitty cause they don't fit your boomer esthetic

    Sitting in 2021 and saying that a 1998 recording with Autotune sounds shitty is like staying that The Beano album from John Mayall's Bluesbreakers is just boring generic blues. Fly Away sounded fresh back in 1998


    End of day Fly Away was an international hit and much better selling single than Beato's own flagship "Carolina". So there is that too

    Fly Away (Lenny Kravitz song) - Wikipedia
    Carolina (Parmalee song) - Wikipedia
    Boomers had their bands. Rick is Gen X to me.
    I don't get into the 'what makes this song great' with him. I like how he attempts to explain things like Messiaen, Wes or Joe Pass chords to the layman. He tries to be efficient.

    I'm a boomer. I hate my generation.
    That was a punk song from the early 80's. I Hate my Generation.

  11. #60

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    Mystified by all this boomer & gen xyz BS. Guitarists currently inspiring me (eg Nir Felder, Gilad Hekselman, Julian Lage, Matthew Stevens) are probably in their 30s. Scott Henderson is actually older than me (I checked), but likely thinks he's still 25. More power to him. Wonder what he'd do with auto-tune. LOL.

    Gotta boomer coming on? Consume more turmeric?

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Boomers had their bands. Rick is Gen X to me.
    I don't get into the 'what makes this song great' with him. I like how he attempts to explain things like Messiaen, Wes or Joe Pass chords to the layman. He tries to be efficient.

    I'm a boomer. I hate my generation.
    That was a punk song from the early 80's. I Hate my Generation.
    No one cares about Gen-X Stevebol ... Even Gen-X'ers don't care about Gen-X

  13. #62

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    Rick Beato doesn't explain WHY modern music is dying by auto-tune. He plays some examples of it and explains the history, but doesn't get to the title of the video. I think modern music is dying because it is plain bad. If you auto-tuned older pop songs they would persist. But there isn't anything interesting or exciting about today's pop music. It will be forgotten. And I'm not a boomer.

  14. #63

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    I remember thinking Sade plays with pitch, sometimes slightly flat, and I'm pretty sure it's on purpose and is part of her sound. Auto-tune would mess up her sound. I'm sure that a smart producer wouldn't use auto-tune for her. It's just a tool to use or not use, it doesn't kill anything.


  15. #64

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    As long as it sells a lot of widgets technology and it's advances to put real musicians out of work.
    People don't care how the sausage is made so long as it's available on the cheap!

    Can't wait till that same model happens for Lawyers, Doctors, etc, LOL !

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by S F
    And I'm not a boomer.
    Are you sure?

    Cause you bloody well sound like one even if you're younger than me

  17. #66
    beautiful song to wake up to with my coffee with a little creamer

  18. #67

  19. #68

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    Needless to say my favourite flat note of all time is ‘day’ on lovely day by Bill Withers. That should be an absolute honker, but somehow it’s awesome.

  20. #69
    When You Hit A WRONG Note In Classical vs Jazz



  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Under 30, not boomer. Over 30, boomer.
    Got it.
    Do not give up! Anyone can qualify as boomer, whose opinion do not fit, and accidentally older :-) In case she/he is younger, then still have chance to got "talks like a boomer" pass.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Do not give up! Anyone can qualify as boomer, whose opinion do not fit, and accidentally older :-) In case she/he is younger, then still have chance to got "talks like a boomer" pass.
    Sure fire way to tell; when someone sends you a zoom link on WhatsApp, do you ask them to send an email?

    I'm not saying it rules you out from being a boomer if you don't, but it's a good indicator if you do.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Sure fire way to tell; when someone sends you a zoom link on WhatsApp, do you ask them to send an email?

    I'm not saying it rules you out from being a boomer if you don't, but it's a good indicator if you do.
    I'd qualify for that....

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Sure fire way to tell; when someone sends you a zoom link on WhatsApp, do you ask them to send an email?

    I'm not saying it rules you out from being a boomer if you don't, but it's a good indicator if you do.
    Why would anyone ask for sending an email, if already have the link on WhatsApp? What is zoom?

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Why would anyone ask for sending an email, if already have the link on WhatsApp? What is zoom?
    You're probably a Geriatric Millennial then.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero


    My one criticism of most younger players is that they lack "soul"(as we said in my generation). They are great technicians, well-schooled, know the repertoire, but lack a personal voice that is especially evident when I hear them play ballads. And, IMO, this is partially the result of the lack of steady LIVE performance opportunities where they can develop their ideas, sound, and personality and partially the result of artistic development which does not mean playing 8 hours a day in a cubicle .
    It seems to be particularly so with sax players; although most of the crop of younger sax players are as you say technically great and (perhaps a bit too much so) well schooled, they have a disturbing tendency to sound a lot alike.

    They all have studied the same players, same transcriptions, same chord/scale methods, same pattern books, etc. that there is very little of the individuality that made Coleman Hawkins sound different than Lester Young; or why Parker sounded different than Eal Bostic, and so on.

    My New Orleans teachers used to say stuff like:

    "Why you wanna sound like him? What, you gonna be on the radio one night and yo mama won't even know it's you."

    "Why you wanna sound like so-and so? We already got one, and he sounds better at being himself than you do. Why not be yourself?"

    "I don't wanna hear any of that practice room shit in your solo - tell me a story, tell me what you had for dinner."