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  1. #51

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    I dig some pop music. But all music and art is about - I THINK - showing what and who our culture is in it's time. So I kind of look at art as a Ken Burns documentary, or history subject and leave my personal antipathy out of it as much as possible. It simply is and it show me where the world is at any given time. I have my taste but that's jazz and art music. Pop is a whole different thing.

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  3. #52

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    Right, pop isn’t art - it’s pop art. The adjective is important.

  4. #53

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    50+ years ago everyone grew up going to church on Sundays hearing common practice 4-part counterpoint hymns. Then as they became older, aspired to signal their sophistication and class status by ‘appreciating’ Jazz and Classical. That culture no longer exists. My hope is the kids today, primarily Asian judging from where my son takes piano lessons, who study music as part of a plan to get them into top colleges. Hopefully this gives them a basis for a lifelong love of music.

  5. #54

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    My dissatisfaction with today's music:

    in jazz guitar- new players are too polite and clean and display no connection with rocknroll or blues, unlike the generation of players like Sco.

    in pop- no trends of heavy aggressive rock, but most of you dont like it anyway, so I'm sure its not a problem.

    My reaction- f.. it who gives a s..t I'll do what I wanna do anyway, anyone else dont matter. I think it's a healthy attitude for an overgrown teenager, makes you happy and non whiny.

  6. #55

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    Well I do remember folky songs infiltrating church, boy were they bad. They wanted to "get with it" hehe. And it hasn't stopped (pop schlock in church that is).


    I can only speak for myself but I heard classical music because my parents played it in the home, constantly. And I thought it was.... mmmmm OK I guess. Then I heard the Beatles and 60s and 70s rock and took up the guitar.

    The hippie rockers were emulating jazzers with their instrumental jams by the time Woodstock happened. Even they wanted to stretch out, and do more than sing about girls and whatnot. I agreed and became more and more interested in the virtuosic or near virtuosic playing, and then became bored with it (rock) altogether. My guitar teacher "turned me on to" George Benson and jazz, and that was it for me. You should see my record and CD collection. Who has room for all this stuff?

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Maybe the problem with "music these days" is a divergence between "creative" and "derivative".

    Music has a derivative component (looking back or reflecting the influence of the past, a nod to authenticity) and a creative component (the new sound, blazing a trail). These components must converge and complement within the composing phase to result in good music of all types. This is one of the primary challenges of music composers - finding the right balance between old and new.

    Music these days sounds like it is losing the musicianship and composing talent to form and hold musical convergence; the components don't support each other so the derivative aspects have a "slapped together made by machine" vibe. The creative aspects seem to be increasingly focusing on more nonmusical oriented stuff - the "artist's" story, look, cred, attitude, clothing, etc.

    Truth be told; these days I listen to music and consider how it would fit in at my funeral! Would a listener hear it/visualise it as something that reflected my life?

    Any body else have this perspective? . . . . . . .

    Music has to express the vitality, movement and emotion that you have/had throughout life . . . .

    I am still working on that soundtrack but I already know a lot that will NOT be there!

    Maybe this is a trick to work out what music matters to you?

  8. #57

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    What music matters to me?
    Bands. They're my generation. Jam Bands. The whole scope of boomer music from old to young. Rap was fun at first but it means nothing to me. I like classical sometimes. A little jazz.
    I might be able to name 7-8 pop songs I like in the last 20 years. I am blown away by Olivia Rodrigo. A lot of people are.
    She's the autotune killer. She has a lot of people worried. She's still a corporate Disney kid but that's no so bad.

    Blues I like is hard to come by. I like a non-virtuoso style of Chicago blues like JB Hutto.
    I like new bluegrass.

  9. #58

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    Is all about K-pop now

  10. #59

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    Rodrigo is good. Even Beato likes her haha.

    However is anyone else a bit tired of pop stars taking over the NPR Tiny Desk concerts? I mean that’s were all the nerdy proper musos like Chris Thile and Anna Meredith are meant to hang out and now it’s Demi Lovato (who I don’t hate) sounding a wee bit pitch corrected to me.

  11. #60

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    In other news, I just realised I didn’t dream this



    Ariana Grande has been covering this tune for a while.

    I think everyone was in lockdown with too much time to shed lol

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Is all about K-pop now
    Well Christian I am, as an Englishman, probably about as cynical as you right now - but being significantly older have a slightly different perspective.

    What is popular now has little to no impact. Had I done absolutely nothing with my life then it might have the appeal of immediacy; but that is not the case.

    For my analysis what matters is reflecting on ones past/prior life and considering what, if any, music sums up part, or all, of that period.

    My challenge to you: pick five pieces of music [any style or genre] that could be played in a thirty minute time frame without commentary, that would allow listeners to walk away knowing something about who you were!

    Could you do this, could anyone here?

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by thelostboss
    Well Christian I am, as an Englishman, probably about as cynical as you right now - but being significantly older have a slightly different perspective.

    What is popular now has little to no impact. Had I done absolutely nothing with my life then it might have the appeal of immediacy; but that is not the case.

    For my analysis what matters is reflecting on ones past/prior life and considering what, if any, music sums up part, or all, of that period.

    My challenge to you: pick five pieces of music [any style or genre] that could be played in a thirty minute time frame without commentary, that would allow listeners to walk away knowing something about who you were!

    Could you do this, could anyone here?
    You could go and listen to my latest album. That’s about 35m long. (9 tracks tho.)
    Vs London | The Hot Club of Jupiter

  14. #63

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    No Worries. I will do that, is there a purchase link?

    Can it be considered as your "dying declaration" or more of an "interim confession"?

    . . . . or possibly "some spots I passed through on the way"?

    You young guys get all [or many] of the options!

    Cheers

  15. #64

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    OK, purchased, but I don't know how long the " buy now; my dying declaration" thing will work for you <<G>>!

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by thelostboss
    OK, purchased, but I don't know how long the " buy now; my dying declaration" thing will work for you <<G>>!
    Well thanks very much. I’m very proud of this record and I hope you enjoy it as much we enjoyed writing and recording it!

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by thelostboss
    No Worries. I will do that, is there a purchase link?

    Can it be considered as your "dying declaration" or more of an "interim confession"?

    . . . . or possibly "some spots I passed through on the way"?

    You young guys get all [or many] of the options!

    Cheers
    Feels like it’s summing up to date .

  18. #67

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    I guess that I was not clear enough in my suggestion. Given that we are talking of of "music in the wild" how much music produced by people other than ourselves do we think could, in an emotional and spiritual sense, sum us up to someone who never knew us. [personally I probably have enough recordings of my own music to bore listeners into joining me in the grave!] So; what music by performers other than ourselves resonates enough for each of us to consider that it is a partial representation of "us" as personalities?


    But - for Christian; enjoyed it very much and will recommend it to friends.
    Last edited by thelostboss; 04-15-2021 at 09:15 AM.

  19. #68

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    Thanks lostboss! Glad you enjoyed it.

    I have to confess it’s not something that’s ever really occurred to me.

  20. #69
    Freind if you can't tell or hear the difference between Snarky Puppy and The Brecker Bros, than I get why you might be upset by my comments.
    Same thing in my day between say John McGlaughlin and Al Dimeaola as musicians.
    Al is a great technician and plays with precision, but lacks the depth and emotion of John McGlaughlins playing.

    M main argument is music has been sanitized by technical advances. And if you grow up not hearing great performances by all styles, then you become acclimated to it.
    Before drum machines, and Pro Tools, music was more interactive. Not so perfect and synced to a Click Track. I would rather hear Ringo play drums than any drum machine. Limited as his abilities may be, he made the feel and interacted with the other Beatles.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Rodrigo is good. Even Beato likes her haha.

    However is anyone else a bit tired of pop stars taking over the NPR Tiny Desk concerts? I mean that’s were all the nerdy proper musos like Chris Thile and Anna Meredith are meant to hang out and now it’s Demi Lovato (who I don’t hate) sounding a wee bit pitch corrected to me.
    Top 30 Singles Chart Philippines - Music Weekly Asia

    The Hot 100 Chart | Billboard

    Rodrigo is #5 and #8 on Billboard. She's not in the top 30 on the Philippines chart. BTS is huge. I guess it is all about KPop.
    Strange. She speaks Tagalog.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    I remember my 7th grade music teacher, Ms. Fanning.

    She said OK class, popular music isn't bad!

    We listened to a song by Judy Collins and went over the lyrics. Then a song by Elton John. It was about suicide.
    I thought, OK Ms. Fanning. Popular music doesn't suck sometimes.
    My elementary school teacher played Strauss for us and we danced waltzes, also taught us folk songs and--shudder!--show tunes. I still remember all those songs.

    In high school we had a couple of teachers who taught Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan as poetry. There was an informal Dylan club that still continues btw via Facebook.

    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Freind if you can't tell or hear the difference between Snarky Puppy and The Brecker Bros, than I get why you might be upset by my comments.
    Same thing in my day between say John McGlaughlin and Al Dimeaola as musicians.
    Al is a great technician and plays with precision, but lacks the depth and emotion of John McGlaughlins playing.

    M main argument is music has been sanitized by technical advances. And if you grow up not hearing great performances by all styles, then you become acclimated to it.
    Before drum machines, and Pro Tools, music was more interactive. Not so perfect and synced to a Click Track. I would rather hear Ringo play drums than any drum machine. Limited as his abilities may be, he made the feel and interacted with the other Beatles.
    Ringo is a great drummer. The Beatles would have been nothing without Ringo. All up-and-coming groups should be so lucky to have a Ringo.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    In other news, I just realised I didn’t dream this



    Ariana Grande has been covering this tune for a while.

    I think everyone was in lockdown with too much time to shed lol
    Not a fan but Drake is hilarious;


  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Freind if you can't tell or hear the difference between Snarky Puppy and The Brecker Bros, than I get why you might be upset by my comments.

    So if I actually dislike Brecker Bros then there is something wrong with me? ... Neither is my favorite, but I'll take snarky puppy over the breckers anyday.

    That period in jazz/fusion from from say 1975 to 1983 that has the breckers as their flagship is utterly ghastly ... Reminds me of kids pulling cats by their tails

    But that fact is about taste, so you won't hear me saying that they where lesser musicians than say the Miles Davis Quintets

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Rodrigo is good. Even Beato likes her haha.

    However is anyone else a bit tired of pop stars taking over the NPR Tiny Desk concerts? I mean that’s were all the nerdy proper musos like Chris Thile and Anna Meredith are meant to hang out and now it’s Demi Lovato (who I don’t hate) sounding a wee bit pitch corrected to me.
    Not to sound like a fanboy but Driver's License is an anthem for a generation. Same as Smells Like Teen Spirit. I actually saw Nirvana and they didn't play the song.
    i was right about Cameo. In the 80's I thought that was the straight dance music that would be played down the road.
    Boomers didn't have anthems I guess.
    Hendrix doing the national anthem at Woodstock?

  26. #75
    I'm not here to criticize any individuals preferences in music. I'm only pointing out that technology has changed not only how we listen to music but how it's affected the actual music being made and not for the better imo.

    As far as Ringo and his abilities, I stand by my comments. Love the feel he brought to The Beatles, but even George Martin brought in other drummers to play what Ringo couldn't. Bernard Purdie, was brought in to play "Baby You Can Drive My Car".

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    That period in jazz/fusion from from say 1975 to 1983 that has the breckers as their flagship is utterly ghastly ... Reminds me of kids pulling cats by their tails
    Metheny did most of his best work over that period and there was still some groovy funk stuff from Herbie and others

    For me its 1983-1990 - digital keyboards, cheesy David Sanborn sax, slap bass and over-chorused guitars
    you could not pay me enough to sit through this


  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Not to sound like a fanboy but Driver's License is an anthem for a generation.
    The definitive version:

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    I'm not here to criticize any individuals preferences in music. I'm only pointing out that technology has changed not only how we listen to music but how it's affected the actual music being made and not for the better imo.
    The record player, the radio... that's when technology allowed folks to hear music that wasn't being played live. I would think those put some local musicians out of work way back when.

    And the TV, entertainment hours and hours at home... kind of like the internet.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Rodrigo is good. Even Beato likes her haha.

    However is anyone else a bit tired of pop stars taking over the NPR Tiny Desk concerts? I mean that’s were all the nerdy proper musos like Chris Thile and Anna Meredith are meant to hang out and now it’s Demi Lovato (who I don’t hate) sounding a wee bit pitch corrected to me.
    She's more Filipino than people in the Philippines. She grew up with the food and language.
    I had heart surgery the same place as Bernie Sanders. That day a nurse said- go to the Philippines.
    I thought oh, so I'm damaged goods now. I should fly half way around the world and find a 19 year old province girl. I'll think about it.

    I probably should but Las Vegas is a perfectly good place to die.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    The definitive version:
    Blondes respond.
    This song could have horrible consequences. Karoke bars will be on every corner and people will be screeching out Driver's License.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Not to sound like a fanboy but Driver's License is an anthem for a generation. Same as Smells Like Teen Spirit. I actually saw Nirvana and they didn't play the song.
    i was right about Cameo. In the 80's I thought that was the straight dance music that would be played down the road.
    Boomers didn't have anthems I guess.
    Hendrix doing the national anthem at Woodstock?
    My dad said it was Itchycoo Park by the Small Faces, and maybe Something in the air by Thunderclap Newman? (Maybe it was just him.) He was also massively into the Airplane.

  33. #82

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    She went a little Dylan at the end here;

    Last edited by Stevebol; 04-16-2021 at 05:02 AM.

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Freind if you can't tell or hear the difference between Snarky Puppy and The Brecker Bros, than I get why you might be upset by my comments.
    Same thing in my day between say John McGlaughlin and Al Dimeaola as musicians.
    Al is a great technician and plays with precision, but lacks the depth and emotion of John McGlaughlins playing.

    M main argument is music has been sanitized by technical advances. And if you grow up not hearing great performances by all styles, then you become acclimated to it.
    Before drum machines, and Pro Tools, music was more interactive. Not so perfect and synced to a Click Track. I would rather hear Ringo play drums than any drum machine. Limited as his abilities may be, he made the feel and interacted with the other Beatles.
    Im a big fan of John McGlaughaghaghlin but less so of Al Di Hemiola.

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    My dad said it was Itchycoo Park by the Small Faces, and maybe Something in the air by Thunderclap Newman? (Maybe it was just him.) He was also massively into the Airplane.
    Feed your head..

    White Rabbit and Thank You.
    Last edited by Stevebol; 04-15-2021 at 03:12 PM.

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    I'm not here to criticize any individuals preferences in music. I'm only pointing out that technology has changed not only how we listen to music but how it's affected the actual music being made and not for the better imo.

    As far as Ringo and his abilities, I stand by my comments. Love the feel he brought to The Beatles, but even George Martin brought in other drummers to play what Ringo couldn't. Bernard Purdie, was brought in to play "Baby You Can Drive My Car".
    Purdie did not play on any Beatles' records. He did play on the Sgt. Pepper movie soundtrack albums.

    No one played drums on Beatles' records except for Starr and very occasionally one of the other boys, with the exception of session drummer Andy White playing on a couple of early recordings (from their debut I think).

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Purdie did not play on any Beatles' records. He did play on the Sgt. Pepper movie soundtrack albums.

    No one played drums on Beatles' records except for Starr and very occasionally one of the other boys, with the exception of session drummer Andy White playing on a couple of early recordings (from their debut I think).

    Yes, just like John Taylor played all of the Duran Duran bass lines .. especially the ones on the Rio album.

  38. #87

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    OK let's choose our funeral song. Here's mine;



  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Freind if you can't tell or hear the difference between Snarky Puppy and The Brecker Bros, than I get why you might be upset by my comments.
    Same thing in my day between say John McGlaughlin and Al Dimeaola as musicians.
    Al is a great technician and plays with precision, but lacks the depth and emotion of John McGlaughlins playing.

    M main argument is music has been sanitized by technical advances. And if you grow up not hearing great performances by all styles, then you become acclimated to it.
    Before drum machines, and Pro Tools, music was more interactive. Not so perfect and synced to a Click Track. I would rather hear Ringo play drums than any drum machine. Limited as his abilities may be, he made the feel and interacted with the other Beatles.
    Who was this directed to? Who’s upset by your comments?


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  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Purdie did not play on any Beatles' records. He did play on the Sgt. Pepper movie soundtrack albums.

    No one played drums on Beatles' records except for Starr and very occasionally one of the other boys, with the exception of session drummer Andy White playing on a couple of early recordings (from their debut I think).
    Bernard claims he did, but I played in a band with him, and I could trust him as far as I could throw him.
    One rehearsal he showed up without any drums!

  41. #90

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    I think I see who the dialogue was fir. Man you guys have too much time on your hands. I go to have time to read threads like these! Lol.


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  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Bernard claims he did, but I played in a band with him, and I could trust him as far as I could throw him.
    One rehearsal he showed up without any drums!
    It’s pretty well established Purdie lied about his Beatles tracking.


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  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    It’s pretty well established Purdie lied about his Beatles tracking.


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    Never a dull moment with Bernard!

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    I think I see who the dialogue was fir. Man you guys have too much time on your hands. I go to have time to read threads like these! Lol.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Henry, I just read on your website that you were related to Mingus. Did you ever hear of a guy named Rudy Williams, a sax player?
    He was a guy I gigged with a lot back in the day, and one of the nicest people on the planet.

  45. #94
    Sorry my fault for going down the wrong Rabbit Hole with Ringo and Bernard Purdie. Either way my poi t was the drummer brings the Feel to the track vs a Drum Machine which does not interact with the other players,

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Henry, I just read on your website that you were related to Mingus. Did you ever hear of a guy named Rudy Williams, a sax player?
    He was a guy I gigged with a lot back in the day, and one of the nicest people on the planet.
    Are your talking about cousin Rudy??? Wow. His duster was singer Estella. I’d love to hear stories. Amazing.


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  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Are your talking about cousin Rudy??? Wow. His duster was singer Estella. I’d love to hear stories. Amazing.

    Wow! Rudy was your cousin? Too much! Who was the singer Estella?
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Wow! Rudy was your cousin? Too much! Who was the singer Estella?

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Good discussion fellows on all sides! I started this again from my viewpoint at my age and as a pro musician who's always loved Jazz.
    To me music that Grooves and has human interaction is what moves me.
    So that can be any genre as well, even Pop.

    When it became drum machines and Pro Tools, it became too robotic. Actual songs are not jingles or music sound tracks which depend on the exact clock.
    So when Prince and Michael Jackson became huge in the 1980s Pop embraced this rigid formula, which basically affected all music genres.
    Baby steps. Have to to ween them off autotune first. The girl at 8:15 is pretty good;


  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Wow! Rudy was your cousin? Too much! Who was the singer Estella?
    He had two siblings - Phil and Estella. All musicians. All children or grandchildren of Fess Williams, kind of famous New York band leader. Their mother was a Phillips who was a sibling to my father’s mother as well as Mingus’.


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    Last edited by henryrobinett; 04-16-2021 at 01:18 PM.

  50. #99

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    I blame everything on the movie Purple Rain.

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    He had two siblings - Phil and Estella. All musicians. All children or grandchildren of Fess Williams, kind of famous New York band leader. Their mother was a Phillips who was a sibling to my father’s mother as well as Mingus’.


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    We played together in this crazy gigging big band. There was a lot of confusion when Rudy first came into the band. This insane 'Nam Vet, ex-junkie trumpet player thought that Rudy was the same Rudy Williams that played in the Savoy Sultans, and Rudy did nothing to dispel that rumor!

    I didn't know much about jazz history back then, but I learned that the alto player of the Savoy Sultans (Rudy Williams) had died at an early age in a mysterious swimming pool drowning.
    So Rudy was playing tenor, and also doing some vocals on things like "Hello Dolly". One time he was singing it on a gig, and I watched him slowly turn around and watch something flying through the air. It turned out to be that trumpet player I mentioned before, being picked up and thrown across the room by the huge 1st trumpet player, who was bugged at him for laying out on some section parts to save up his chops for a solo!

    Rudy just kept on singing as if nothing happened!
    Rudy was doing a day gig as a welder, so his chops were not as happening as they could've been, but he had a great feeling for the blues.

    He seemed to know a lot of heavy players, and he got Leonard Gaskin on the band, and the two of them would be telling jokes to each other, sometimes laying out in the middle of a tune, when everyone else was playing.
    Rudy got me involved in a recording session for Al Jabaz Williams, a wild piano player, who had written a jazz biblical thing for big band and choir. I don't know if it ever came out. Rudy said Jabaz had been involved in Motown, and lived in a huge house in Old Westbury.

    Rudy also got me on a great small group gig that he led, with the great drummer/singer Charles 'Honeyboy' Otis, who was probably the greatest Blues/R&B singer I've ever worked with. He did a version of "This Masquerade" that was 100x better than Benson's version.
    Charles dug the way I played, and told me to come down to the gig he was doing at Tramps with Big Joe Turner, because they were looking for a guitarist. I tried to get out of my steady gig, but the head of the office threatened to fire me if I didn't make his gig, so I had to pass on it.

    Rudy mentioned in passing once that he was Mingus' cousin, and I looked it up years later in books on Mingus, and they said Charles used to room with Rudy when he was in NYC. Rudy even played on one of Mingus' albums.
    I lost touch with Rudy and was very saddened to learn that he had passed from cancer. RIP, Rudy.