The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #226

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    I suppose what Littermark is saying is that ‘baroque’ music is texturally more complex than ‘classical era’ music. And that’s true, actually CPE Bach etc made a conscious effort to simplify textures, although he like many was also a master of counterpoint (could have scarcely been otherwise lol.)

    Changing fashion. Same as I don’t use a chorus pedal anymore haha.

    (but obviously music became more complex in other ways, formally as others have suggested and also in terms of modulations etc.)

    But you know, Vivaldi is texturally simpler than JS Bach. The older Bach was old fashioned for his time. The Italian masters were ala mode, opera etc, and dominated throughout European high society music .

    Apparently this all got rewritten by the Germans later on.

    (I use scare quotes because those terms were invented by 19th century musicologists and disparaged in 18th century music nerd circles. I think the term used at the time was ‘Gallant’ which is nice because it sums up the affect of later 18th century music very well. I’m not sure how you would sum up Bach’s music in the parlance of the time. Probably simply ‘German* church music’)

    Apparently baroque musical culture wasn’t really so interested in instrumental music either. It really took an interest in instrumental music for its own sake for it to become more formally involved I suppose. Something gets more complex, something gets simpler, always.

    * except... Germany didn’t exist yet did it? So maybe.. Lutheran church music? so much of this terminology we use, these potted histories seem to wrapped up in narratives that came along much later ...
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-25-2021 at 03:09 PM.

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  3. #227

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    Maybe I'm missing something, but I think the Driver's License covers ALL sound awful. Adult Swim Festival, OTOH, sounds positively badass IMO.

    Is there something that I don't get, here?

  4. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I suppose what Littermark is saying is that ‘baroque’ music is texturally more complex than ‘classical era’ music. And that’s true, actually CPE Bach etc made a conscious effort to simplify textures, although he like many was also a master of counterpoint (could have scarcely been otherwise lol.)

    Changing fashion. Same as I don’t use a chorus pedal anymore haha.

    (but obviously music became more complex in other ways, formally as others have suggested and also in terms of modulations etc.)

    But you know, Vivaldi is texturally simpler than JS Bach. The older Bach was old fashioned for his time. The Italian masters were ala mode, opera etc, and dominated throughout European high society music .

    Apparently this all got rewritten by the Germans later on.

    (I use scare quotes because those terms were invented by 19th century musicologists and disparaged in 18th century music nerd circles. I think the term used at the time was ‘Gallant’ which is nice because it sums up the affect of later 18th century music very well. I’m not sure how you would sum up Bach’s music in the parlance of the time. Probably simply ‘German* church music’)

    Apparently baroque musical culture wasn’t really so interested in instrumental music either. It really took an interest in instrumental music for its own sake for it to become more formally involved I suppose. Something gets more complex, something gets simpler, always.

    * except... Germany didn’t exist yet did it? So maybe.. Lutheran church music? so much of this terminology we use, these potted histories seem to wrapped up in narratives that came along much later ...

    Well I suppose it's debatable but I don't agree.

    Another opinion might be:
    Relatively straightforward melodies expressed with polyphony on a smaller set of simple chords, relatively limited modes, and fewer compositional forms
    vs.
    homophony and polyphony - but with the other elements expanded

  5. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Well I suppose it's debatable but I don't agree.

    Another opinion might be:
    Relatively straightforward melodies expressed with polyphony on a smaller set of simple chords, relatively limited modes, and fewer compositional forms
    vs.
    homophony and polyphony - but with the other elements expanded
    There is no debate in terms of the relative textural complexity of baroque music compared to what immediately followed it. That’s why the Germans called it baroque music.

    In terms of the relative harmonic complexity.... well depends how you measure it really, no?

    I mean the term ‘harmonic’ means you are measuring counterpoint by the terms of 19th/20th century harmonic ideas. Harmony implies chords and chord movements, but that’s not quite where, say, Bach’s head was at in so much as we can tell. He was a counterpoint guy, of course.

    It’s also true, that just because I can play all this ‘advanced’ jazz harmony but it doesn’t mean I have a prayer improvising a fugue does it? It’s a different thing. (and make no mistake the 18th century guys who we know as composers were improvisers first and foremost whether at the clavier or on manuscript.)

    Mind you the theories describing ‘common practice harmony’ won’t help you improvise a fugue either; the only thing that does that is doing lots of counterpoint, preferably with someone who can improvise fugues.

    This relates to a wider thing. There’s only so much you can spend time doing. In eras gone by you may not have had much of a choice, but now you do.

    I could cite loads of historical examples going back to the Middle Ages but I’ll spare you.

    The trend in the last few decades has been towards timbral nuance and sound design at the expense of other elements we instrumentalists might identify more as being ‘musical.’

    Modern film score composers and pop producers probably see the sounds available to them as an advance on live instrumental colours in the same way as a 19th century composer might see their harmonic palette as an advance on that of Mozart. It’s not what I think, but it’s an axis of development.

  6. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    In other news, I just realised I didn’t dream this



    Ariana Grande has been covering this tune for a while.

    I think everyone was in lockdown with too much time to shed lol

    They play their solos simultaneously to save tape, I suppose.

    Domi and JD Beck, The Nordist and the drummer boy, are the next big thing. They have chops:


  7. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    Did she only know British classical composers? That seems like a rather sheltered childhood. Verging on child abuse.

    No, we learned about many composers. But those British composers are part of our culture, and their work is very beautiful.

    I doubt you would make that comment to someone of a very different culture.

  8. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Does it even makes sense to you? I know you're doing comedy, but still?
    Not yet. GenX thinks the movie Purple Rain was a documentary.

  9. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick

    No, we learned about many composers. But those British composers are part of our culture, and their work is very beautiful.

    I doubt you would make that comment to someone of a very different culture.
    I think you interpreted my comment in an unintended way. I didn't disparage those composers, simply implied (jokingly) that it would be a shame to miss out on all the other composers.

    I would definitely say the same thing to someone from a different culture (rightly or wrongly). I mean it would be pretty awful to grow up in Miami and not be exposed to Cuban music. Just as it would be terrible to grow up in San Diego and not be exposed to mariachi or ranchero. Just as I'm sure those who grew up near Tibet are not exposed to Tibetan music. Sad.

    That being said, I actually don't really like much Canadian music/art. Most of it is hooky to me. Exceptions abound.

  10. #234

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    [/quote]
    I think you are focused on the analogy rather than the point I was apparently poorly making.

    [/QUOTE]
    As much as I do enjoy a good discussion on classical music...

  11. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    I was only comparing it to the Classical period. One of the features of Baroque melodies are that they are highly ornamented. Dense polyphonic texture dominated much of the era in contrast to the more homophonic and clearly defined form in the Classical era. The melodies are also far simpler.

    I mean if you want to compare it impressionist music you can do that too.

    I think you are focused on the analogy rather than the point I was apparently poorly making.

    From professor Wiki:
    In an anonymous, satirical review of the première in October 1733 of Rameau's Hippolyte et Aricie, printed in the Mercure de France in May 1734, the critic implied that the novelty of this opera was "du barocque," complaining that the music lacked coherent melody, was filled with unremitting dissonances, constantly changed key and meter, and speedily ran through every compositional device.[81] Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who was a musician and noted composer as well as philosopher, made a very similar observation in 1768 in the famous Encyclopédie of Denis Diderot: "Baroque music is that in which the harmony is confused, and loaded with modulations and dissonances. The singing is harsh and unnatural, the intonation difficult, and the movement limited. It appears that term comes from the word 'baroco' used by logicians."
    modern musicologists tend to reject the 1750 demarcation between baroque and classical and group all 18th century music as ‘galant’, while acknowledging changes in style throughout the century. Haydn and Mozart are not less complex than Bach and could be just as polyphonically complex when they desired. Sure the harmonic rhythm in later 18th century music is slower and filled with stock figurations, but it is also more rhythmically complex.

  12. #236

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    State of Music Today - Could there be more good music being performed and/or recorded than ever? Money, maybe not so good though.

    Not sure why we're talking about Driver License. A lot better stuff out there imo.

    But, Robben Ford is still writing and performing, as is Larry Carlton, Carl Verheyan, Lee Ritenour, and many others

    And for the much younger musicians (so many young musicians if you search for them):



  13. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The trend in the last few decades has been towards timbral nuance and sound design at the expense of other elements we instrumentalists might identify more as being ‘musical.’

    Modern film score composers and pop producers probably see the sounds available to them as an advance on live instrumental colours in the same way as a 19th century composer might see their harmonic palette as an advance on that of Mozart. It’s not what I think, but it’s an axis of development.
    Good points. I think I would subscribe to this idea. People are frequently trying to find a new sound. Which might literally be a synthesizer, as opposed to a new harmonic sound.

    I personally find timbre to be really important to me. If it sounds good I could play one note all night long.

    I have a strong affinity for pre 1960 timbres.

    As I was outside picking weeds in my garden this afternoon, I was thinking about pop music being harmonically simple lately (not that that is new to pop music.
    )

    Different eras reflect and react to what came before them. (Hold your breath I'm going to make some large generalizations) Romantic composers were reacting to the rigidity of form from the previous period. Expanding The form and length and complexity of their pieces. Becoming more complex and dense like Wagner delaying the tonic by modulating frequently creating minutes of tension without release. Culminating with the Rite of Spring. Then neo classicists throwing out tonality all together (ending the classical common period, if that is important or relevant I don't know but I thought I would mention it.)
    Anyway, the point being, I would not be surprised if in a few years it starts to swing back to harmonically more interesting music. As long as you can dance to it.

  14. #238

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  15. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    Can't dance to it.

  16. #240
    There is tons of horrible music from all eras! Again my point was when musicians were actually involved in the proccess, it was much better!
    Styles and complexity of harmony and rhythms aside as well

    Pop Music especially was at its musical peak with artists like the Beatles Sgt Peppers, Beach Boys Good Vibrations, Police Synchonicity, EWF, etc.
    All of these albums had both great playing by musicians, arrangers, engineers, etc.

    Without collaboration music is very one dimensional. And that's what has happened to cut costs and increase profits. The public doesn't seem to care or notice the difference. So unfortunate!

  17. #241

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    I think the big change is that music is now experienced on visual media.
    Visual stimuli are prioritized. Eyeballs = clicks = money makes the world go 'round.
    I don't see that changing anytime soon.

  18. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick

    No, we learned about many composers. But those British composers are part of our culture, and their work is very beautiful.

    I doubt you would make that comment to someone of a very different culture.
    British composers get a raw deal, not least from
    domestic critics.

    Anyway a lot of the best British classical music is not symphonic but rather choral or song oriented which might affect perceptions; i suppose in the late 19th/early 20th it was all about prestigious symphonies and operas. Here it’s always been about the setting of words as far as I can see, without dramatic action (Britten and Purcell aside) something that extends to our popular music too. It’s all about the lyrics...

    Anyway here’s Wayne Shorter on Vaughan Williams who he shares my enthusiasm for
    Wayne Shorter: '''Happening,''' and Meandering, a Burst at a Time - The New York Times

    Do check out the sixth symphony. If all you know is the Tallis Fantasia and Lark Ascending you won’t know what hit you. Second movement with the sax solo is extraordinary.

  19. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    There is tons of horrible music from all eras! Again my point was when musicians were actually involved in the proccess, it was much better!

    So non-musicians make Ariana Grande records?

  20. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    There is tons of horrible music from all eras! Again my point was when musicians were actually involved in the proccess, it was much better!

    So non-musicians make Ariana Grande, Demi Lovato and Miley Cyrus records? (Random artists that tend to top the charts)

  21. #245

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    Tim Minchin, the Australian 'comedic minstrel', observed that the music industry once had musicians at all levels of management and in the studios, but the contemporary business is almost bereft of musical talent. That makes a big difference in the values of the industry. And, as K says, it is all about the eyes now.

    Ariana Grande did not do much on that Adult Swim thing with Thundercat and the kids, but she could be seen, which is all that matters. This is why we can't have nice things (as they used to say on Adult Swim, back when it was funny).

  22. #246
    So I watched some Mark Letieri videos. Fine guitarist as well as fellow musicians on the videos. But where are the melodies?
    Again it seems like the current trend amongst the Hip Young Musicians is to blend Funky rhythms a la Prince and complex Berklee scale exercises ?

    I only use this a one example.And as much as I like Dirty Loops, they also suffer this same musical dilemma.
    Where are the melodies of greatness a la Stevie Wonder, Steely Dan, Weather Report, Jaco, or a song like "Pools" by Steps Ahead?

    I'm not against any of these younger musicians talent. I just wonder when one or more of them will actually emerge to actually great in the Coltrane, Hendrix, Jaco mold?

  23. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    So non-musicians make Ariana Grande, Demi Lovato and Miley Cyrus records? (Random artists that tend to top the charts)
    Well they're certainly not untalented, but it's a shame that they limit themselves to such mundane and prepackaged material. (Though I suppose one could have said the same thing about any number of prepackaged pop stars of the 40's-50's-60's.) Miley does seem to have a creative mind and a willingness to stretch out of her comfort zone (not just clothes-wise LOL). Look at her collaborations with the Flaming Lips for instance.

    I put this on my iPhone yesterday for a long bike ride. Billy Strings just rocks. Best playing and singing in bluegrass these days if not roots music in general.

    He posted a picture on Facebook yesterday of himself outside of Norman's Rare Guitars with a vintage LP. Look out for his next rock-oriented recordings (he started out in Metal btw).


  24. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    That's my jam!

  25. #249

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    If you grew up listening to music in the 60’s how could you not be floored by the constant new bands and new music? And it seemed normal that every day there was a new “hit” being released. It seemed those days would go on forever. But those days ended. And it seemed to begin with Barry Gordy selling Motown. No one saw that coming. Even Gamble and Huff carried on into the 80’s. Outside of the Bruno Mars and Andersen Paak duo I’ve not heard a true musical hit in over a decade. So get off my lawn.

  26. #250

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    ...But where are the melodies?
    Again it seems like the current trend amongst the Hip Young Musicians is to blend Funky rhythms a la Prince and complex Berklee scale exercises ?
    My verse didn't draw much attention.

    Musicians' resumes played for the listening,
    Everything sounds like a list full of sampling;
    Dropdown menu machine music sings,
    These aren't a few of my favorite things.

    Maybe I should have made it a limerick, or a haiku?