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  1. #1

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    I played with BB today and I tried to make my playing swinging.
    is it possible to practice swinging?
    Box

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  3. #2

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    It's not only possible, it may be essential.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    I played with BB today and I tried to make my playing swinging.
    is it possible to practice swinging?
    Box
    I'd suggest listening to some of Reg's youtube videos. I think he's there as reg523 iirc.

    You can hear great time feel in every note he plays. And, he's playing solo or with a backing track in many of them. Practice like that.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'd suggest listening to some of Reg's youtube videos. I think he's there as reg523 iirc.

    You can hear great time feel in every note he plays. And, he's playing solo or with a backing track in many of them. Practice like that.
    I like Reg,s playing a lot.
    I think playing with backing tracks limits the possibility of swinging.
    Playing live with a good rhythm section inspires swinging.
    I'm listening to Dexter Gordon's recordings.I like his time feel and the kind of swinging he has.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    I played with BB today and I tried to make my playing swinging.
    is it possible to practice swinging?
    Box
    Yes.

    Although many people’s problems with swing come from a basic misunderstanding of what it is - they tend to dot to much and play the upbeats too short. They ‘try to swing.’

    Usually it’s actually quite easy to fix, but they revert quickly, so you have to keep reminding them. Then the practice becomes about them getting used to this new place and inhabiting it than slowly getting used to the feeling. Recordings build trust...

    In any case overdotting is not what I’m hearing here. Sounds good.

    When I practice this stuff, I tend to practice consistently placing the swung ‘ands’ with the ride cymbal skip note, vocally and then very much feeling the upbeat in my 8th note lines, even accenting them at first. You want to be able to feel the swing upbeat and not unconsciously straighten your upbeat feel as you play.

    (Purposefully playing straight against swing sounds hip af of course, real Blue Note thing)

    I think habitually you play straight and even, so it’s just a matter of playing with drums and practicing your own swung upbeats. I like DrumGenius.

    Straight, even and relaxed, but feeling the upbeats. Rhythmic accuracy is actually very important for swinging, but you have to know what to be accurate about.... (the accents of the phrase basically.)

    in short I’d agree with Hal Galper; never try to swing.

  7. #6

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    Also if you like Dexter I would recommend experimenting with using only downstrokes.

  8. #7

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    Often time feel is associated with swinging.

  9. #8

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  10. #9

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    The phrasing in that track definitely swings. Sounds to me more like you're exploring possible lines. Good stuff.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    is it possible to practice swinging?
    I like your playing and think you're swinging great. It's not the way {insert name here} swings and it's not how you'll swing in ten years, but who cares about that?

  12. #11

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    JGF has gone glitchy itchy for me.

    Swing and feel are topics that I love obsessing over in my own playing. That said, I don't think you have a bad swing feel at all--Kris

    I changed from placing the metronome click from 2 and 4 for 10 years to 1 and 3 in the last 4 years. 1 and 3 really helped me start off with a solid base because those beats are the stable "harmonic" beats. Then I can dial in the swing, and how on top or behind the beat I want to be. 2 and 4 resulted in a lot of triplet-itis for me--very painful for the soul . A lot of people will argue against 1 and 3, but it works for me

    That, and I love to practice long form rhythm--as Bruce Arnold would call it. You take a metronome mark, and divide it by 8--then you have a click at the dowbeat of every two measures. You can divide by 16 and get a click at the downbeat of every four measures.

    Here is 120bpm/8 to give you 15 bpm--or, a click every two measures at 120bpm. Works wonders for improving phrasing. Try it:


  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
    I like your playing and think you're swinging great. It's not the way {insert name here} swings and it's not how you'll swing in ten years, but who cares about that?
    Thanks a lot.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
    JGF has gone glitchy itchy for me.

    Swing and feel are topics that I love obsessing over in my own playing. That said, I don't think you have a bad swing feel at all--Kris

    I changed from placing the metronome click from 2 and 4 for 10 years to 1 and 3 in the last 4 years. 1 and 3 really helped me start off with a solid base because those beats are the stable "harmonic" beats. Then I can dial in the swing, and how on top or behind the beat I want to be. 2 and 4 resulted in a lot of triplet-itis for me--very painful for the soul . A lot of people will argue against 1 and 3, but it works for me

    That, and I love to practice long form rhythm--as Bruce Arnold would call it. You take a metronome mark, and divide it by 8--then you have a click at the dowbeat of every two measures. You can divide by 16 and get a click at the downbeat of every four measures.

    Here is 120bpm/8 to give you 15 bpm--or, a click every two measures at 120bpm. Works wonders for improving phrasing. Try it:

    I know most of these exercises with the metronome.
    Thanks for nice coment.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    The phrasing in that track definitely swings. Sounds to me more like you're exploring possible lines. Good stuff.
    Thanks.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Also if you like Dexter I would recommend experimenting with using only downstrokes.
    I have to try it. Thanks.

  17. #16

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    "is it possible to practice swinging?"

    imo swing is an attitude. swing feel is not about the grid. it's also not about the 8th note.

    i think the deductive method does simply not work for idiomatic music. imo there are no top-down instructions you can follow that will make you swing. the closest to an instruction is possibly dizzy's "the more upbeats you have the more it swings".

    to "practice" swing feel is the strong desire to hone in on an event that felt good before. like hal galper says "you need material to study the process".

  18. #17

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    Outstanding musicians probably feel the swing from their birthday.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Outstanding musicians probably feel the swing from their birthday.
    Yes many do
    But also many don’t?

    Also it’s not a linear thing. There’s all sorts of dimensions to it.

    I think guitarists need to spend more time talking to drummers haha

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    "is it possible to practice swinging?"

    imo swing is an attitude. swing feel is not about the grid. it's also not about the 8th note.

    i think the deductive method does simply not work for idiomatic music. imo there are no top-down instructions you can follow that will make you swing. the closest to an instruction is possibly dizzy's "the more upbeats you have the more it swings".

    to "practice" swing feel is the strong desire to hone in on an event that felt good before. like hal galper says "you need material to study the process".
    Actually for some students it’s felt in exactly the opposite way.

    They are used to feeling it one way, and you have to actually show them the new feeling, and often they can recoil from it because it feels ‘wrong’; they are so used to doing it the old way. (It actually reminds me of my singing lessons. Singing lessons are all about this. Good technique feels very strange for most people at first.)

    Telling them (as Galper does) to not try to swing and to play nice and even usually unlocks the right feel (IF they are feeling the upbeats, which usually depends on whether or not they listen to a lot of jazz) but often they feel that they have to actively DO something to make the swing eights happen (usually articulation of the dotted rhythm with the pick hand) because that’s how they have somehow been conditioned.

    In fact sometimes they will reject the new way absolutely. A recording of them is then helpful to demonstrate the difference.

    So you end up feeling almost as if your are having to almost deprogram them from some sort of indoctrination they were getting from somewhere. This includes some music graduates BTW (not jazz grads specifically.)

    The other thing is a more general problem is that people try to control and micromanage what can’t be consciously controlled. It actually feels good not to do this, but I think it so ingrained in general culture it can be very hard for people to let go. I find it super interesting.

    It’s not the end of the story of course, but it does get them on the right track (often very quickly), and I feel it demonstrates how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and bad framing in music edu leads to problems down the line.

    All of which bears out what you are saying really

  21. #20

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    Interesting:

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    they tend to dot to much and play the upbeats too short.
    like this?



  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Interesting:
    there is a great brushes book by ed thigpen. everything he plays lines up with the triplet. and since grant green is the answer to everything here is a track where you can hear that every note he plays lines up *perfectly* with the implied triplet 12/8 feel.


  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    like this?


    Well, sure, there are plenty of great players with a pronounced dot. Wynton Kelly for one.

    I suspect you know exactly what I am talking about, but anyway... I mean it is more like when you have been told that swing is an inequality, but you still lock into the downbeat and your upbeat placement isn’t consistent because the upbeats aren’t actually being felt. Rather the accent is still on the beat and the upbeats are sort of snatched.

    The inequality itself isn’t the problem, it’s the context. But it usually manifests itself as a dotted eighth sixteenth sort of thing.

    It’s what you get when a classical musician tries to swing. You know the sort of thing!

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Interesting:
    This is basically one of the things I teach. It’s a classic horn player thing actually.

    however it’s not the end of the story. Accents are not always on the upbeats... but most beginners suck at swing upbeats at first so it makes sense to prioritise those.

    You do not in fact want to end up with accented upbeats in 8th note lines, you want to end up with a nice even dynamic, accented where required; this is instead a corrective for accented downbeats you hear in many beginners.

    This is also raises some interesting questions re pick technique.

  26. #25

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  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    like this?


    This video is unavailable, what recording was it?

    I always wonder if I'm "overswinging."

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    This video is unavailable, what recording was it?
    When the solo swings...Unit 7-8293c809-f527-4911-8c20-8e93ffdbc201-jpeg

  29. #28

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    the best things in life are free (hank mobley, workout)

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    This video is unavailable, what recording was it?

    I always wonder if I'm "overswinging."
    Nah

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Nah
    Great, cuz if there's anything corny about anybody's playing on "Workout," I don't wanna be cool.

  32. #31

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    A lot of swing, please:

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    A lot of swing, please:
    More people should talk about Erroll Garner. Whether you love the song or not, people only seem to remember Erroll Garner for "Misty."

    He was MUCH more than the writer of a hit ballad. Everything Garner did was swinging. He played funk and latin grooves like no one else:



    Listen to how he plays "I Got Rhythm"



    The way Erroll Garner does 4 to floor. I love Freddie Green's original feel and concept, but MAN... listen to how Erroll plays 4 to the floor with that jab on the "and" of 3. Perfect. I want to steal that feel for my own comping.



    Erroll deserves more respect even from jazz pianists... He had so much to teach just by listening to his playing

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    A lot of swing, please:
    he's so laid back he actually manages to lose 15 bpm within 90 seconds. clearly he needs a metronome workout

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    he's so laid back he actually manages to lose 15 bpm within 90 seconds. clearly he needs a metronome workout
    That’s correct. Metronomic accuracy = good swing feel. IT’S A SCIENTIFIC FACT.

    That’s what I was told and anyone disagreeing with this is stupid.

    It’s such a shame so much jazz from 1920-1980 doesn’t swing at all. Just think what they could have achieved with DAW’s. They could have been as funky as Snarky Puppy.

    We should go back and quantise it. Do humanity a favour.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That’s correct. Metronomic accuracy = good swing feel. IT’S A SCIENTIFIC FACT.

    That’s what I was told and anyone disagreeing with this is stupid.

    It’s such a shame so much jazz from 1920-1980 doesn’t swing at all. Just think what they could have achieved with DAW’s. They could have been as funky as Snarky Puppy.

    We should go back and quantise it. Do humanity a favour.
    Look...Band in the Box has quite good quantise function...

  37. #36

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    I'm probably just old, but if one more person tells me how "funky" Snarky Puppy or Vulfpeck is...

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    he's so laid back he actually manages to lose 15 bpm within 90 seconds. clearly he needs a metronome workout
    ooo no...Bass part plus right hand is perfekt.