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Originally Posted by Lobomov
Sorry, L,
I've explained it well and provided an excellent example. I'll allow my remarks to stand as written.
Play live . . . Marinero
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02-28-2021 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by jazznylon
An apology was not my intention for your honest and valid remarks . . .rather clarifying my own comments. Thanks for your reply.
Play live . . . Marinero
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Or Allan Holdsworth on acoustic for that matter
i kind of wish they hadn’t played electric their acoustic playing is so lovely
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Anyway that’s a bit beside the point. But of guitarists that are known to be effects heavy it’s interesting the extent to which they have the sound in their fingers. Bill Frisell is another example.
So the amplified tone thing, I think, is not actually all important. If you sound generic, you will sound equally non descript through effects. (And as most effects are also pretty generic... well you get the picture.)
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Originally Posted by Marinero
That is fine .. Dislike Scofield, Metheny, McLaughlin, Lage, Rosenwinkel and Frisell
Then spice that up with lamenting that there are no unique voices these days and that all modern players are unimaginative robots.
Whatever makes you happy
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" It seems a bit unsporting to sing the praises of individuality on the one hand and object to someone’s individuality on the other when one doesn’t like it." Christianm77
Hi, C,
I am fully supportive of individuality irrespective of genre. However, it doesn't change my tastes in music. For example, Stevie Vai is considered ,by some, a musical guitar genius. It may be so but, I couldn't listen to 2 bars of his cacophony.
Play live . . . Marinero
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Originally Posted by Marinero
I don't think anyone who's worked in any of 'the arts' for more than a decade or 2 believes this. Certainly anyone who believes this is not an artist.
In my experience, audiences have rather highly developed bullshit detectors. It's actually quite difficult to go out there and pretend to be other than who you are and have any success.
As individuals we may not appreciate who a particular artist is, and believe him to be a pretender. Often times what's actually going on is that we don't understand their expression, or we don't have a taste for their art, or we don't approve of the lifestyle of the folks who do.
I have a little story I'd like to share. For a large chunk of my time in NYC trying to be a guitarist my day job was studio assistant to a very successful (though not widely known) painter/sculptor. It was an up close and very personal education in the creative process. At one point he said "By the time you recognize a trend it's already too late to take advantage. All you really have is your own gut feelings and vision. You just have to keep ploughing ahead." I think it takes a long time to learn that, and in the meantime you're one of the pretenders.
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Originally Posted by Marinero
I am sure I would recognise Vai’s playing cold anywhere.
I actually think that’s more important than whether or not I like his playing in fact. It’s something that actually transcends mere personal taste.
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I mean there’s a lot of music I don’t like that I have to respect just for it’s - uniqueness? Individuality.
like bloody Schumann. Awful stuff, but he did a thing.
Also I didn’t get Schubert for years. And now he is possibly my favourite composer. So I have to reserve judgment on some level. It’s more fun that way.
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But I’m also reminded of the quite someone posted of Cootie Wiliams saying that the bebop era made everyone play the same; like Charlie Parker.
I certainly see the 50s as an era of relative stylistic uniformity; like the baroque era. Musicians had their own voice within that but individuality came to for a bit later, in the 60s which is like the Romantic era of jazz in some ways.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Well said!
Play live . . . Marinero
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As soon as you can get me a 7 days a week gig I'll develop my voice. It's funny how we forget the most important part of the golden years. Miles didn't come up performing once a month at the coffee shop.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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I don't think an "Ok Boomer" was ever more appropriate
There is so much young talent out there but ofcourse you need to want to see it.
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"I am sure I would recognise Vai’s playing cold anywhere." Christianm77
Hi, C,
To be honest, I could not since my knowledge of that genre of music is almost zero. However, perhaps among devotees, it is quite clear as you have stated. . . ergo . . a voice. Play live . . . Marinero
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Originally Posted by waltf
Danny Janklow and his terrific group ,in my above post, doesn't count among the many young players I listen to regularly? How young do you mean, then? Pre-natal? Play live . . . Marinero
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Hi, C,
I am a firm believer in listening to what you like not what you "should" like. I had a friend in the past that thought Bartok was the greatest composer that ever lived. I listened to almost all of his major works over a period of months and they did nothing for me. I have played Bach since my early 20's and although I appreciate his genius, his music doesn't move me emotionally. The genres of music we like, I believe, are based on our own unique personality and that illusive, much abused term "soul." Why should anyone, unless for academic reasons, devote time to something you don't like. If your friend loves oysters Rockefeller and you find them repugnant . . . you get the point. Should your listening experiences be a manifestation of Sturm und Drang or do they bring you somewhere away from the mundane life into personal gratification? So, whether young or old, listen to what moves you . . . and save the rest for the academics.
Play live . . . Marinero
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Sorry mr. marinero, you said “Today, it is a rarity to hear a fresh voice”.
It’s not, it just so happens you don’t like them.
So basically the discussion is: “why am i not hearing more musicians play the music that I like” which is as boomer as it gets . I’m considered a boomer as well by my students so don’t worry ?
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Originally Posted by waltf
Are you and my friend Lobo drinking buddies?
Play live . . . Marinero
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An important point: if you don't get to play live with musicians better than yourself, then your development will necessarily be stunted (in jazz, especially). As a jobbing musician for the first 3 decades of my "career", I played all the time, sometimes 400 gigs a year. Many were jazz, some were reading gigs, some were accompanying singers, many were solo restaurant or wedding ceremonies. What I do know was that my earliest experiences playing with older and more experienced musicians were the ones that pushed me into my own style; mainly because those experiences taught me to listen and react. While it's easy to be influenced by a recording artist such as Wes or Jim or Tal, it's even easier to be influenced by the pianist or saxophonist right next to you on stage. As I practiced and listened, I found myself playing better when really accomplished players were on the stand, simply as a matter of "belonging" to that moment. As far as whether guitarists are brought up on jazz or folk or classical, it has never really mattered. There are too many stories of great jazz guitarists starting with folk, country (JOHNNY DAMN SMITH!), Beatles, Hendrix, whatever, and becoming world-class artists.
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Originally Posted by Marinero
I’m sorry you don’t hear a lot of unique voices, but maybe a lot of great players that found their own voice are
playing something else then what you call ‘straight ahead jazz’.
I had never heard of Danny Janklow before but i doubt i would recognise him if played on the radio.
A Kamasi Washington song I would probably recognise.
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Originally Posted by waltf
If you're ever in Copenhagen, I'll gladly buy you a drink!
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We've gotten away
From Lady Day :-)
I don't think she was in the best condition when this was done...
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Just a couple brief comments. Post #46 by RonJazz is one of the best descriptions of the "pathway" I've read. It "is" the process and sadly it is being lost in numerous ways by our culture and our times. They are the words of a true working musician. Also, thanks to Ragman for the excellent interview with BH and the request to return to the original topic and away from personal invective which destroys these discussions through personal animus and takes them to a lower level.
Finally, in the recording, Billie reiterates that you can't learn Jazz . . . your born with the talent. I would agree with one caveat: namely, that the idiom can be taught. However, knowledge of the idiom is no guarantee for a personal voice or to rise above the "craftsman'" level to artistry. This is, for me, a secret society with few members. Thanks again for the great posts.
Play live . . . Marinero
Chief Xian aTunde Adjuah (Christian Scott)
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