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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    This thread is about unique voices and not about straight ahead jazz ... and you clearly only like unique voices that are part of your estethic

    And sure .. the 1940s-1960s esthetic is a thing of the past .. The world keeps revolving and people have moved to other stuff, so no new talent is trying to hit a vibe that is 60-80 years back in time.


    Listen M. .... I have no problem with you having a specific taste in music. You do you. Like what you want ... But what you're doing again and again is telling us that the players of today have no talent and no voice .. Telling us that they are just robots. In reality the issue is that they just don't play that old school stuff that you happen


    There are plenty of unique voices today, you just don't like any of their music. It really is that simple.



    Sorry, L,
    I've explained it well and provided an excellent example. I'll allow my remarks to stand as written.
    Play live . . . Marinero

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    maybe this is still to jazz rock for M though lol
    Lol .. but speaking of acoustic Sco .. One of my all time favorite records


  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    Ah okay cool apologies for my misunderstanding then. I'll sit back and watch as I don't have much of an opinion regarding finding one's voice but it'll be interesting to see where this thread goes (if anywhere)
    Hi, J,
    An apology was not my intention for your honest and valid remarks . . .rather clarifying my own comments. Thanks for your reply.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  5. #29

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    Or Allan Holdsworth on acoustic for that matter





    i kind of wish they hadn’t played electric their acoustic playing is so lovely

  6. #30

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    Anyway that’s a bit beside the point. But of guitarists that are known to be effects heavy it’s interesting the extent to which they have the sound in their fingers. Bill Frisell is another example.

    So the amplified tone thing, I think, is not actually all important. If you sound generic, you will sound equally non descript through effects. (And as most effects are also pretty generic... well you get the picture.)

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Sorry, L,
    I've explained it well and provided an excellent example. I'll allow my remarks to stand as written.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    That is fine .. Dislike Scofield, Metheny, McLaughlin, Lage, Rosenwinkel and Frisell

    Then spice that up with lamenting that there are no unique voices these days and that all modern players are unimaginative robots.


    Whatever makes you happy

  8. #32
    " It seems a bit unsporting to sing the praises of individuality on the one hand and object to someone’s individuality on the other when one doesn’t like it." Christianm77

    Hi, C,
    I am fully supportive of individuality irrespective of genre. However, it doesn't change my tastes in music. For example, Stevie Vai is considered ,by some, a musical guitar genius. It may be so but, I couldn't listen to 2 bars of his cacophony.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    ... there is a belief by some ... that artistry is simply time + technique + repertoire.
    Disclaimer: I'm not trying to refute anything that M. has said. I just have a few thoughts I'd like to share.

    I don't think anyone who's worked in any of 'the arts' for more than a decade or 2 believes this. Certainly anyone who believes this is not an artist.

    In my experience, audiences have rather highly developed bullshit detectors. It's actually quite difficult to go out there and pretend to be other than who you are and have any success.

    As individuals we may not appreciate who a particular artist is, and believe him to be a pretender. Often times what's actually going on is that we don't understand their expression, or we don't have a taste for their art, or we don't approve of the lifestyle of the folks who do.

    I have a little story I'd like to share. For a large chunk of my time in NYC trying to be a guitarist my day job was studio assistant to a very successful (though not widely known) painter/sculptor. It was an up close and very personal education in the creative process. At one point he said "By the time you recognize a trend it's already too late to take advantage. All you really have is your own gut feelings and vision. You just have to keep ploughing ahead." I think it takes a long time to learn that, and in the meantime you're one of the pretenders.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    " It seems a bit unsporting to sing the praises of individuality on the one hand and object to someone’s individuality on the other when one doesn’t like it." Christianm77

    Hi, C,
    I am fully supportive of individuality irrespective of genre. However, it doesn't change my tastes in music. For example, Stevie Vai is considered ,by some, a musical guitar genius. It may be so but, I couldn't listen to 2 bars of his cacophony.
    Play live . . . Marinero
    That’s not the point you were making though is it?

    I am sure I would recognise Vai’s playing cold anywhere.

    I actually think that’s more important than whether or not I like his playing in fact. It’s something that actually transcends mere personal taste.

  11. #35

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    I mean there’s a lot of music I don’t like that I have to respect just for it’s - uniqueness? Individuality.

    like bloody Schumann. Awful stuff, but he did a thing.

    Also I didn’t get Schubert for years. And now he is possibly my favourite composer. So I have to reserve judgment on some level. It’s more fun that way.

  12. #36

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    But I’m also reminded of the quite someone posted of Cootie Wiliams saying that the bebop era made everyone play the same; like Charlie Parker.

    I certainly see the 50s as an era of relative stylistic uniformity; like the baroque era. Musicians had their own voice within that but individuality came to for a bit later, in the 60s which is like the Romantic era of jazz in some ways.

  13. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    But I’m also reminded of the quite someone posted of Cootie Wiliams saying that the bebop era made everyone play the same; like Charlie Parker.

    I certainly see the 50s as an era of relative stylistic uniformity; like the baroque era. Musicians had their own voice within that but individuality came to for a bit later, in the 60s which is like the Romantic era of jazz in some ways.
    Hi, C,
    Well said!
    Play live . . . Marinero

  14. #38

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    As soon as you can get me a 7 days a week gig I'll develop my voice. It's funny how we forget the most important part of the golden years. Miles didn't come up performing once a month at the coffee shop.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Most 50’s musicians were passing through the bottleneck of copying Parker licks. The 60s allowed players to diversify a bit as well maybe.

    Maybe that’s rubbish, but it’s kind of how it sounds to me.
    Absoluuuuutely. More than a few things changed in the 1960s.

  16. #40

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    I don't think an "Ok Boomer" was ever more appropriate

    There is so much young talent out there but ofcourse you need to want to see it.

  17. #41
    "I am sure I would recognise Vai’s playing cold anywhere." Christianm77

    Hi, C,
    To be honest, I could not since my knowledge of that genre of music is almost zero. However, perhaps among devotees, it is quite clear as you have stated. . . ergo . . a voice. Play live . . . Marinero

  18. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by waltf
    I don't think an "Ok Boomer" was ever more appropriate

    There is so much young talent out there but ofcourse you need to want to see it.
    So, W,
    Danny Janklow and his terrific group ,in my above post, doesn't count among the many young players I listen to regularly? How young do you mean, then? Pre-natal? Play live . . . Marinero

  19. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I mean there’s a lot of music I don’t like that I have to respect just for it’s - uniqueness? Individuality.

    like bloody Schumann. Awful stuff, but he did a thing.

    Also I didn’t get Schubert for years. And now he is possibly my favourite composer. So I have to reserve judgment on some level. It’s more fun that way.

    Hi, C,
    I am a firm believer in listening to what you like not what you "should" like. I had a friend in the past that thought Bartok was the greatest composer that ever lived. I listened to almost all of his major works over a period of months and they did nothing for me. I have played Bach since my early 20's and although I appreciate his genius, his music doesn't move me emotionally. The genres of music we like, I believe, are based on our own unique personality and that illusive, much abused term "soul." Why should anyone, unless for academic reasons, devote time to something you don't like. If your friend loves oysters Rockefeller and you find them repugnant . . . you get the point. Should your listening experiences be a manifestation of Sturm und Drang or do they bring you somewhere away from the mundane life into personal gratification? So, whether young or old, listen to what moves you . . . and save the rest for the academics.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  20. #44

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    Sorry mr. marinero, you said “Today, it is a rarity to hear a fresh voice”.
    It’s not, it just so happens you don’t like them.
    So basically the discussion is: “why am i not hearing more musicians play the music that I like” which is as boomer as it gets . I’m considered a boomer as well by my students so don’t worry ?



  21. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by waltf
    Sorry mr. marinero, you said “Today, it is a rarity to hear a fresh voice”.
    It’s not, it just so happens you don’t like them.
    So basically the discussion is: “why am i not hearing more musicians play the music that I like” which is as boomer as it gets . I’m considered a boomer as well by my students so don’t worry ?


    Hi, W,
    Are you and my friend Lobo drinking buddies?
    Play live . . . Marinero

  22. #46

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    An important point: if you don't get to play live with musicians better than yourself, then your development will necessarily be stunted (in jazz, especially). As a jobbing musician for the first 3 decades of my "career", I played all the time, sometimes 400 gigs a year. Many were jazz, some were reading gigs, some were accompanying singers, many were solo restaurant or wedding ceremonies. What I do know was that my earliest experiences playing with older and more experienced musicians were the ones that pushed me into my own style; mainly because those experiences taught me to listen and react. While it's easy to be influenced by a recording artist such as Wes or Jim or Tal, it's even easier to be influenced by the pianist or saxophonist right next to you on stage. As I practiced and listened, I found myself playing better when really accomplished players were on the stand, simply as a matter of "belonging" to that moment. As far as whether guitarists are brought up on jazz or folk or classical, it has never really mattered. There are too many stories of great jazz guitarists starting with folk, country (JOHNNY DAMN SMITH!), Beatles, Hendrix, whatever, and becoming world-class artists.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, W,
    Are you and my friend Lobo drinking buddies?
    Play live . . . Marinero
    I don’t think so but i guess we could be. We could be as well marinero.
    I’m sorry you don’t hear a lot of unique voices, but maybe a lot of great players that found their own voice are
    playing something else then what you call ‘straight ahead jazz’.

    I had never heard of Danny Janklow before but i doubt i would recognise him if played on the radio.
    A Kamasi Washington song I would probably recognise.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by waltf
    I don’t think so but i guess we could be. We could be as well marinero.
    I’m sorry you don’t hear a lot of unique voices, but maybe a lot of great players that found their own voice are
    playing something else then what you call ‘straight ahead jazz’.

    I had never heard of Danny Janklow before but i doubt i would recognise him if played on the radio.
    A Kamasi Washington song I would probably recognise.

    If you're ever in Copenhagen, I'll gladly buy you a drink!

  25. #49

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    We've gotten away
    From Lady Day :-)

    I don't think she was in the best condition when this was done...


  26. #50
    Just a couple brief comments. Post #46 by RonJazz is one of the best descriptions of the "pathway" I've read. It "is" the process and sadly it is being lost in numerous ways by our culture and our times. They are the words of a true working musician. Also, thanks to Ragman for the excellent interview with BH and the request to return to the original topic and away from personal invective which destroys these discussions through personal animus and takes them to a lower level.
    Finally, in the recording, Billie reiterates that you can't learn Jazz . . . your born with the talent. I would agree with one caveat: namely, that the idiom can be taught. However, knowledge of the idiom is no guarantee for a personal voice or to rise above the "craftsman'" level to artistry. This is, for me, a secret society with few members. Thanks again for the great posts.
    Play live . . . Marinero