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  1. #1

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    From Belfast. They have a web page and a press kit.

  4. #3

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    I hope no one will be offended if I point out they look more attractive than Mssrs Clapton, Bruce and Baker.

    Nice sound they get from that setup.

  5. #4

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    A few weeks ago I came across them on my video feed on Facebook performing Fleetwood Mac's OH WELL. The guitarist and bass player (also sings) sometimes switch instruments during their gigs.

  6. #5

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    That was great fun! Thanks for posting, I thought they sounded great.

    "Eric Clapton, please....on vocals"
    That was the song that made me want to play guitar. Listened 1 million times in college. His second solo on that I just went nuts for.

  7. #6

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    I read that the original is made up from two different performances, with the second solo - the best of the two, and sadly missed from the buskers version - added in.

    As for the buskers, great to see, but I do wish they had played their own solos and bass lines. What they did was a note for note transcription - impressive in itself, but ultimately not as interesting as it might have been. But I would drop them a coin or two, for sure.

  8. #7

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    Agree with the last post: why learn someone else's impro'd solo lines note for note, when they themselves likely wouldn't reproduce them live?
    I never did that as a teen; grew up on that stuff. You find your own inspiration. Or not, so it will suck that day.

    People don't seem to realize how important innovation is.

  9. #8

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    please don’t take the following as being dismissive or critical of the video; I’m constantly amazed and delighted by the skills of young musicians. They sound GREAT!

    But there is an interesting social phenomenon here.

    Reproducing solos in private for study has a long and storied history. Ask Eric!

    Reproducing exact solos in public was once strongly discouraged by older professionals in the jazz world.

    Now common (I’ve done it myself) it can be a form of tribute, tipping ones hat to the masters, showing dues paid.

    but it’s sometimes also a form of musical virtue signaling (if you forgive the use of the term) - sort of ‘look I done my homework.’

    its also a safe bet among younger people who may lack the confidence to put their own music out there on its own terms (which is always scary.) and it’s easier to tell whether or not it’s any good. You can compare the solo to Clapton’s and see how close it is to the master.

    Another way it seems to me is that popular music and jazz are increasingly coming to resemble classical music. In the 18th century it would have been unimaginable that any professional performer would play a piece verbatim, now of course it is the norm. So my expectation is that we see more and more of this as the music fossilises. I think it’s basically inevitable.

    TBF social media world encourages these types of performances. original music - even a cover with an improvised guitar solo - rarely picks up as much interest online.

    I honestly don’t think rock should be a thing where older people say ‘the Kids are alright’; I think what they should be saying is ‘AIEEEEEEE WHAT IS THAT UNGODLY RACKET???’ But the era of the cranked Plexi is long gone...
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-10-2021 at 07:38 AM.

  10. #9

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    Rock is about using the Albert Hall for a slap back echo



    (according to Joe Bonamassa Eric complains that sound engineers won’t let him turn up his amps anymore lol.)

    Rock isn’t a thing anymore. It’s gone, preserved in letter but not in spirit. It’s classical music now. But, you know, it had a good innings.

    BTW can’t hear Eric playing the solo off the record here.

  11. #10

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    That's more like it, mistakes and all! Hopefully the buskers are more like this in club venues - not that we have those during Covid - letting their hair down and letting rip. I don't want to criticise, just encourage them to let go.

    Also, let's hear it for Jack Bruce - awesome bass playing. Ginger ain't bad either.

  12. #11

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    Copying is killing music.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Reproducing exact solos in public was once strongly discouraged by older professionals in the jazz world.
    rene thomas played raneys solo on motion on gigs. pony poindexter makes a point in his book how he played complete bird solos on the gig for kicks. nobody thought less of those cats.

    a famous solo like cottontail had to be played the exact same way every time. don byas reportedly played the same stardust solo in amsterdam for a week bird solos would be harmonized and a big band was founded just to perfom the exact solos in harmony. monk with bigband has an arranged monk solo. lyrics were invented to make jazz solos singable. a whole vocal genre with supergroups like L,H&R and later manhattan transfer was built on the concept of reproducing exact solos live. i could not hate this stuff if i tried.

    good solos are celebrated. in the old days and now. where hawk or snarky puppy. what could possibly be wrong with that? it's easy in these digital times to lose the thread.

  14. #13

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    To make money (they are busking afterall) I think they made the right decision playing it verbatim. What is our little bubble here is Jazz/serious music appreciation folks? 5% of the population? The vast majority of the public who even recognizes that song are gonna enjoy hearing that familiar song/solo and I imagine more likely to throw a buck in the hat. Maybe I'm wrong. What are the chances he/she (whoever the busker is) is gonna a play a solo more compelling to the average person than Eric's? Of course there is a chance, BUT if on THIS day their goal was to get as much loot in the kitty then I think they did the right thing. If their goal was to just to get out and play "and fuck all" to anything else then just let it rip with their own take.

  15. #14

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    Copying is not killing music, thats BS. Copying your heroes note for note is a crucial step, and sooo much fun. Yes, it ain't no shame to reproduce iconic solos live. Btw, most guitarists don't bother, especially when playing blues, but it's just laziness. You will never become a master if you can't copy. It's always easier to say oh I dont need to copy, I got my own shit to play. Well, your shit most likely stinks if you didn't do your HW.

    Last time I was on a pop/rock jam, a singer called Smoke On The Water. I played the whole solo pretty much note for note and that was a lot of fun. I can play my own stuff on my own songs or when I'm improvising jazz standards. That's very different. But if you play a classic rock song pls include the original solo, thank you

    EVH would agree

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    I read that the original is made up from two different performances, with the second solo - the best of the two, and sadly missed from the buskers version - added in.

    As for the buskers, great to see, but I do wish they had played their own solos and bass lines. What they did was a note for note transcription - impressive in itself, but ultimately not as interesting as it might have been. But I would drop them a coin or two, for sure.
    Rob, good point. I had also read that the 2nd solo was shortened or edited and that's why after the last note of the solo there is a quick shift in the sound.
    Also, Eric said he hates the solo cuz he comes in a beat late.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    rene thomas played raneys solo on motion on gigs. pony poindexter makes a point in his book how he played complete bird solos on the gig for kicks. nobody thought less of those cats.

    a famous solo like cottontail had to be played the exact same way every time. don byas reportedly played the same stardust solo in amsterdam for a week bird solos would be harmonized and a big band was founded just to perfom the exact solos in harmony. monk with bigband has an arranged monk solo. lyrics were invented to make jazz solos singable. a whole vocal genre with supergroups like L,H&R and later manhattan transfer was built on the concept of reproducing exact solos live. i could not hate this stuff if i tried.

    good solos are celebrated. in the old days and now. where hawk or snarky puppy. what could possibly be wrong with that? it's easy in these digital times to lose the thread.
    That’s true. Context is rather important.



    I think it’s very cool to arrange and transcribe (in the classical sense) a great solo you admire, a bit cooler than simply playing it on your instrument, because there’s a creativity to it. you are doing something with it.

    I like what Bill does with Charlie’s solo here


    Also Rene Thomas (or Bill) isn’t a young student... it’s a bit different?

    But I have heard more anecdotes of players being reprimanded for playing other player’s stuff by elder players on gigs. obivously not everyone has the same sensibility . With Rene it’s obviously a tribute made by one of the leading lights, not a player who is finding their way.

    At no point do I think it’s bad to learn and study complete solos. I think it’s a really good pathway; not the only one as it turns out, but tried and true.

    OTOH, to put out versions of songs played note exact? More complex. I remember there was a thing with Kind of Blue a couple of years back, trying to play with some of these things conceptually. None of the jazz players i know had much time for it. I think it was quite an interesting thing to do though from a conceptual POV.

    What has changed with young players is that the past is now fetishised to a degree. But as I say, jazz has changed. It’s a classical music now, has a different function within society.
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-10-2021 at 12:31 PM.

  18. #17

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    Well for the most part with classical music you’re playing exactly the notes as written - though there can be some disagreement about what exactly those notes are - but with a personal interpretation.

    Martha Argerich, Vladimir Horowitz and Vladimir Ashkenazy all play the same notes, but sound very different.

    BTW as a listener it takes a lot of learning to be able to appreciate the differences.

    Back OT, I think the original Crossroads live performance was quite iconic for each instrument. Jack Bruce really raised the bar for bass performance in a rock context with his playing.

  19. #18

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    It’s worth going back to the original. Still has a power that no cover version has matched.


  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Also Rene Thomas (or Bill) isn’t a young student... it’s a bit different?
    why would it be any different? hep says it right, it's fun. even jazzstudents are supposed to have some, right? they'll discover the truth about the ponzi scheme called jazz edu soon enough, lol.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    why would it be any different? hep says it right, it's fun. even jazzstudents are supposed to have some, right? they'll discover the truth about the ponzi scheme called jazz edu soon enough, lol.
    Why would it not be different?

    learning is to some extent at least context dependent. You don’t teach a beginner the same stuff you’d teach an advanced student. And Rene Thomas can do anything he flipping likes, obviously.

    You might tell a beginner to copy all the licks they can, for example, then ten years down the line tell them off for it and demand that they play their own stuff :-)

    Its not just dickery of course; it’s context. a beginner gets a tremendous amount out of learning licks but a more advanced student needs to grow beyond them.

    jazz students never have any fun lol.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    I read that the original is made up from two different performances, with the second solo - the best of the two, and sadly missed from the buskers version - added in.

    As for the buskers, great to see, but I do wish they had played their own solos and bass lines. What they did was a note for note transcription - impressive in itself, but ultimately not as interesting as it might have been. But I would drop them a coin or two, for sure.
    Yes. IIRC, there is an edit involved. Eric was quoted as saying he was "looking for the one." Been there, done that.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    I honestly don’t think rock should be a thing where older people say ‘the Kids are alright’; I think what they should be saying is ‘AIEEEEEEE WHAT IS THAT UNGODLY RACKET???’ But the era of the cranked Plexi is long gone...
    I'm 72. I'm saying the kids are alright because that's what I think. To have these young ladies, younger than my grandchildren by the looks, take an interest in this music (blues - the muthafatha of jazz), albeit second-handed, through the good offices of Baker,* Bruce,** & Clapton,*** gives me hope for the future of music made by humans with their own hands and lungs, expressing feelings with which other humans can say, "I feel it, too" in real time without the aid of a technical crew out-numbering the band six-to-one, and do it live on a Belfast sidewalk with a couple of battery-equipped amps. I salute them.

    And the era of the cranked Plexi is over only because that sound can be made with smaller stuff. I've still got mine, just in case.

    * Jazz guy
    ** Jazz guy

    ***Blues guy
    Last edited by citizenk74; 01-10-2021 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Font size

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMgolf66
    Rob, good point. I had also read that the 2nd solo was shortened or edited and that's why after the last note of the solo there is a quick shift in the sound.
    Also, Eric said he hates the solo cuz he comes in a beat late.
    And it's that beat late that gives that part of the "solo"* its drive, a certain Monk-like off-kilter scrabbling like a skater to right himself feeling of terror/exhilaration that can only come from improvisation. To catch that and splice it in where it was was genius on the part of the editor.

    * "Solo" Not quite the right word. I prefer "Ride."

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74

    And the era of the cranked Plexi is over only because that sound can be made with smaller stuff.
    Citation very much needed

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Citation very much needed
    Sound? That which goes from the speaker to the mic to the board? It's there.

    The feel, on the other hand? Ain't nothin' like the real thing, Baby!

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Why would it not be different?

    learning is to some extent at least context dependent. You don’t teach a beginner the same stuff you’d teach an advanced student. And Rene Thomas can do anything he flipping likes, obviously.

    You might tell a beginner to copy all the licks they can, for example, then ten years down the line tell them off for it and demand that they play their own stuff :-)

    Its not just dickery of course; it’s context. a beginner gets a tremendous amount out of learning licks but a more advanced student needs to grow beyond them.

    jazz students never have any fun lol.
    you seem to see everything through a teacher/student lens. as far as i'm concerned everybody can do what they flipping like. especially the students. see my sig.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Copying is not killing music, thats BS. Copying your heroes note for note is a crucial step, and sooo much fun. Yes, it ain't no shame to reproduce iconic solos live. Btw, most guitarists don't bother, especially when playing blues, but it's just laziness. You will never become a master if you can't copy. It's always easier to say oh I dont need to copy, I got my own shit to play. Well, your shit most likely stinks if you didn't do your HW.
    I loathed every moment of it. They were not my heroes, who were outside the canon of hairy rock, and not considered worthy of imitation by the publishers of instruction books. Exact copying was a drudge, which taught me everything about exactly where to hammer on (or off) in a song I hated, and nothing about how the song was constructed. I also encountered too many men who aggressively displayed their masculinity with constant references to excretion and other bodily functions.

    So I gave up, and only returned to playing years later, when Internet provided the resources to play more freely, intuitively and intelligently.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    I loathed every moment of it. They were not my heroes, who were outside the canon of hairy rock, and not considered worthy of imitation by the publishers of instruction books. Exact copying was a drudge, which taught me everything about exactly where to hammer on (or off) in a song I hated, and nothing about how the song was constructed. I also encountered too many men who aggressively displayed their masculinity with constant references to excretion and other bodily functions.

    So I gave up, and only returned to playing years later, when Internet provided the resources to play more freely, intuitively and intelligently.
    Bois are gonna boi. I find them very tiresome, myself. My professional policy was to comport myself as a gentleman, as my Mother taught me. It was the least I could do, considering what a pain I was as kid.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    It’s worth going back to the original. Still has a power that no cover version has matched.

    This is a blues but Robert Johnson wasn't a 'blues guitarist'. He was a versatile musician. People expect far too much from Eric Clapton. He's a romantic. Blues isn't particular romantic music. Typically there's a lot of irony. I'm not sure what the lyrics in Crossroads are about.

    If you want to sell your soul to the devil, play Rhythm and Blues. Satan threw blues in there to fool me and I fell for it. It almost destroyed me.
    This cheers me up;


  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    This is a blues but Robert Johnson wasn't a 'blues guitarist'. He was a versatile musician. People expect far too much from Eric Clapton. He's a romantic. Blues isn't particular romantic music. Typically there's a lot of irony. I'm not sure what the lyrics in Crossroads are about.

    If you want to sell your soul to the devil, play Rhythm and Blues. Satan threw blues in there to fool me and I fell for it. It almost destroyed me.
    This cheers me up;

    Like that a lot. Raw.

    I agree Johnson probably wouldn’t have called himself a blues musician. His stepsister points out that he wasn’t a country guy who got inspired one day, he was a city guy who went back to the country for inspiration.

    I had always thought Johnson had died of a gunshot, but apparently he died of a medical illness. There is some speculation about poisoning by a jealous husband. If, as rumored, he had esophageal varices, then he might have died of the effects of alcoholic liver disease, though 27 is a bit young, even for a HEAVY drinker, especially one who was traveling around and playing quite actively up until his death.

    I find the idea of a ruptured aneurysm due to syphilis quite intriguing for obvious reasons...but still this would have been an uncommon cause of death, even among persons with congenital or acquired syphilis.

    I like the idea of a bleeding ulcer better. Much more common both then and now. Definitely more common than strychnine poisoning. ;-)

  32. #31

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    I like them.


  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Like that a lot. Raw.

    I agree Johnson probably wouldn’t have called himself a blues musician. His stepsister points out that he wasn’t a country guy who got inspired one day, he was a city guy who went back to the country for inspiration.

    I had always thought Johnson had died of a gunshot, but apparently he died of a medical illness. There is some speculation about poisoning by a jealous husband. If, as rumored, he had esophageal varices, then he might have died of the effects of alcoholic liver disease, though 27 is a bit young, even for a HEAVY drinker, especially one who was traveling around and playing quite actively up until his death.

    I find the idea of a ruptured aneurysm due to syphilis quite intriguing for obvious reasons...but still this would have been an uncommon cause of death, even among persons with congenital or acquired syphilis.

    I like the idea of a bleeding ulcer better. Much more common both then and now. Definitely more common than strychnine poisoning. ;-)
    Thanks to Mark for first posting that. I saw JB around 77'. It was LOUD. I'd probably chop off a finger to find a drummer and bass player who could play like that. IDK, at my age I might have a heart attack doing that.
    I just started reading a book about Robert Johnson. I'll dive into it more today.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That’s true. Context is rather important.



    What has changed with young players is that the past is now fetishised to a degree. .
    I hope that these very talented youngsters are playing this music because they genuinely love it . If so, they may well develope their own 'voice' later. However, if they are playing it because they have uncritically accepted the guidance of others then they may be disappearing down a rabbit hole from which they may not emerge and will be regarded as an entertaining curiousity. I hope it's the former rather than the latter

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Copying is killing music.
    In some ways, yes, but at my age I can't expect Dea Matrona to see the world the same as me. I always ask myself, would I stick around a bar to listen to them? Yes. They're a good band.
    I've never copied a solo from a record and played it in public. It's not what I do but I don't care if other people do it.

    I have a jazz brain stuck in a pop musicians body. Blues is my thing these days.