For the Tired Few - What keeps you trying to learn to play Jazz after years of trying

[pamosmusic]

Like mopping, it should only take a few minutes and then you can move on.

Damn that’s well-put.

[rpjazzguitar]

Some people know the fretboard via memorized fingerings. They may do this without thinking about note names.

Others (I'm one) know the note names and think about them.
So, for example, if the chord is A7 and I hear a b13, I know it's an F and I know where all the Fs are.

Others apparently might do this by knowing where that sound is relative to an A7 grip. Or as a melodic minor mode, or something else, more pattern based.

Or so I think. I'm interested how others view this.

[pamosmusic]

Can you give me an example of "a very different way of understanding the fretboard"?

Well, for example I am very very very position oriented. I organize everything around positions. We've had lots of conversations here about the pinkie and I'm a pinkie guy. But anyway ... I do lots of single and two string playing and unusual stuff, but it's kind of difficult for me to understand how people who don't care about position playing manage the fretboard in a systematic way.

Christian hasn't gone into tons of detail about that, but he's mentioned that he's not a big position dude.

Jordan Klemons is one that jumps to mind. He absolutely knows the guitar inside and out, but he is not a position person at all. He's said before that he organizes a lot of his arpeggios and things around "positions" that he sort of loosely associates with shell voicings. So he might have two or three fingerings for an arpeggio that he practices and uses. It's hard for me to understand how he learns the neck so well without using positions that sort of systematically cover it. But he has. It's a much more right brain way about it, and that difference maps onto lots of other differences in the way we practice and think about music.

[rpjazzguitar]

It also depends on tempo and harmony.

For certain tunes I end up playing some arps that I've practiced enough to have under my fingers.

At very high tempo I'll do that if I know the harmony well enough. But if I'm sight reading some unfamiliar harmony I'm more likely to stick to chord tones.

At slow tempo I'm just silently scat singing and playing that if I know the harmony well enough. If the harmony is unfamiliar I'll be thinking chord tones.

At any time, a grip may pop into my mind and I might play that. That usually works. But if a scale pops into my mind, that is usually where the solo starts to suck.

[Cunamara]

Well, 3 1/2 years ago I wrote:

"It's fun. That's what keeps me going. Even just hitting one note on the guitar that sounds really good makes me feel great.

But I try not to have any illusions that I am highly talented or will ever be a great jazz guitarist. Well, since I'm 61, that will certainly never happen."

Now I'm pushing 65. It's still fun, first and foremost. But I have been fortunate to get some very specific mentoring in playing jazz (from a sax player) and I play better now than in 2020. Hopefully that will continue. Just played a quartet gig for a couple of hours this afternoon and enjoyed it very much. Playing with better musicians is pretty critical to improvement, IME. And I have a Monday get-together with a bassist that we've been doing since before the pandemic- very supportive and forgiving living room situation, which has promoted some growth too (and is not strictly jazz-focused).

[Mick-7]

Well, for example I am very very very position oriented. I organize everything around positions. We've had lots of conversations here about the pinkie and I'm a pinkie guy. But anyway ... I do lots of single and two string playing and unusual stuff, but it's kind of difficult for me to understand how people who don't care about position playing manage the fretboard in a systematic way.

Ah, o.k., by "position oriented" do you mean you orient yourself by a CAGED type system? - major chord/scale positions?

I am not position oriented, I orient myself by a combination of visual and aural cues: interval and scale patterns and how they sound, chord shapes and patterns. So position awareness only enters into the picture relative to chord shapes, e.g., how the shape of a 4-note chord played on the top 4 strings would change when played on the middle strings.

Others (I'm one) know the note names and think about them.

I do that too, like I said, a combination of things... some of which has become subliminal so hard to define.

[pauln]

I'm interested how others view this.

One of the things that does not get much press with regard to finger board conceptions is the sense of reference with respect to which of the four fingers has the tonic or root of what is being played. It's part of the sounds of the various styles. It looks like some general trends are that lots of:
- rock and blues fingering uses the index finger as the local reference
- jazz fingering uses the second finger for this
- country western fingering uses the fourth finger and open strings for this
- all styles use the third finger, for all the use it gets, may take a sub reference role when within the interior of a pattern or when stretching outside above (B or E string) or below (E or A string) the local pattern
That is, observing that the fingers may have any one of four possible perspectives at any one moment as to their mechanical relationship to the finger board, each offering different "feels" and idiosyncrasies.

[ruger9]

One of the things that does not get much press with regard to finger board conceptions is the sense of reference with respect to which of the four fingers has the tonic or root of what is being played. It's part of the sounds of the various styles. It looks like some general trends are that lots of:
- rock and blues fingering uses the index finger as the local reference
- jazz fingering uses the second finger for this
- country western fingering uses the fourth finger and open strings for this
- all styles use the third finger, for all the use it gets, may take a sub reference role when within the interior of a pattern or when stretching outside above (B or E string) or below (E or A string) the local pattern
That is, observing that the fingers may have any one of four possible perspectives at any one moment as to their mechanical relationship to the finger board, each offering different "feels" and idiosyncrasies.

Sometimes I think TOO MUCH thought goes into it, just play. This is a good example. And your last sentence is the cure.

(in case it's not clear, I'm agreeing with you... I think too much analysis makes for boring/sterile music. Many pros have "bad habits" (idiosyncrasies) to thank for helping them develop their own unique voice on the instrument.)

[Tal_175]

If you're thinking while playing, then you haven't really been practicing. None of the concepts of harmony or fretboard organization should be mentally processed during a performance.

[ruger9]

If you're thinking while playing, then you haven't really been practicing. None of the concepts of harmony or fretboard organization should be mentally processed during a performance.

At that point I'm only thinking melody. I either internalized the "preparation" (fretboard organization) well enough or I haven't. And if I haven't, that's not bad, it's just limiting.

[alltunes]

I just love the tunes. If I hack my way through Days of Wines and Roses for example I take great satisfaction in that. A lead sheet, a guitar and even a rudimentary ability to play some type of arrangement on the fly is endlessly fascinating to me.

[ruger9]

I just love the tunes. If I hack my way through Days of Wines and Roses for example I take great satisfaction in that. A lead sheet, a guitar and even a rudimentary ability to play some type of arrangement on the fly is endlessly fascinating to me.

I really think in the end it comes down to this. If you love it, just do it. It doesn't matter how well you do it, except to yourself (excluding professional musicians, most of us here are not). If you enjoy hacking your way through a tune, that's all that matters. The more you play it, assuming you have the TIME to play enough to get familiar with it, the better you'll get at it. Time can be the real problem for alot of people. Trying to learn and then internalize a tune (of any genre) in 10-minutes-a-day increments isn't ideal. And if it's in a style that isn't really in your wheelhouse, it probably won't work at all. But again- as long as you're enjoying yourself, that's all that matters.

I love jazz. I listen to it all the time. I come from a rock/blues/singer-songwriter background. I'll never play jazz well enough to gig it (unlike blues/rock/country), and that's fine. I still love listening to it (alot) and I still love dabbling in it.

[pingu]

If you're thinking while playing, then you haven't really been practicing. None of the concepts of harmony or fretboard organization should be mentally processed during a performance.

I’m way off base then !

I’m nearly always considering that stuff ….
very occasionally I can just blow
a few melodic ideas ….
but I still have to be super aware of the
form at all times
otherwise I’ll get lost innit

[Mick-7]

If you're thinking while playing, then you haven't really been practicing. None of the concepts of harmony or fretboard organization should be mentally processed during a performance.

I’m way off base then !

I’m nearly always considering that stuff …. very occasionally I can just blow a few melodic ideas ….
but I still have to be super aware of the form at all times otherwise I’ll get lost in it

I can guarantee you that if I'm sightreading a music score or playing a tune I'm unfamiliar with (especially if it is harmonically complex), there's a lot of mental processing going on.

[Tal_175]

I sort of misspoke. I didn't mean no mental processing. I'll explain what I mean when I get a chance.

[Mick-7]

I sort of misspoke. I didn't mean no mental processing. I'll explain what I mean when I get a chance.

I took it you meant you one's playing technique, how one plays, needs to become second nature, but that's different than what one plays, at least until you're a master. I mean, when I listen to someone like Keith Jarrett, I get the impression that there's a direct unimpeded flow of musical ideas from his head to his hands.

[ruger9]

I took it you meant you one's playing technique, how one plays, needs to become second nature, but that's different than what one plays, at least until you're a master. I mean, when I listen to someone like Keith Jarrett, I get the impression that there's a direct unimpeded flow of musical ideas from his head to his hands.

Right. The idea is, you hear where your next note should be in your head (the melody you are creating), and are able to produce it without having to analyze what mode you're in, where on the fretboard is that next note, etc. You simply hear it a millisecond before you play it. Just like hitting a 96mph fastball... it either all comes together in an instant or it doesn't. The theory is, the more you practice and the more you KNOW (and by "knowing" I mean it could be "book learning" and/or experience) the more effortless it is to do... instant improvisation.

And please, don't someone start with the "there is no such thing as true improvisation" nonsense... "you can't play something you've never played before"

[pauln]

I took it you meant you one's playing technique, how one plays, needs to become second nature, but that's different than what one plays, at least until you're a master. I mean, when I listen to someone like Keith Jarrett, I get the impression that there's a direct unimpeded flow of musical ideas from his head to his hands.

That's kind of the emergent magical aspect of music; doing what can be learned but can't be taught. Each of us acquires increasingly unique "direct unimpeded flow". In the early stages our pathways share a lot of common which allows for teaching, but as we approach our unique internalized pathways there's diminishing pedagogy, none for final delivery to our ultimate goals.

[Tal_175]

I took it you meant you one's playing technique, how one plays, needs to become second nature, but that's different than what one plays, at least until you're a master. I mean, when I listen to someone like Keith Jarrett, I get the impression that there's a direct unimpeded flow of musical ideas from his head to his hands.

In my case, there is some mental processing when playing most tunes. I am aware of the chord I am on, the chord I am going to, where I am in the form, fretboard references for chord specific ideas etc.

When improvisation concepts are discussed on the forum, sometimes people push back by saying that these concepts involve too much thinking. But the thinking part is done while practicing these concepts over tunes for many months. Any concept that one wants to integrate into improvisation (from exotic harmonic devices and chord-scales to simple ideas like chord tones and enclosures) must be practiced and familiarized to the extend that they are accessible with very minimal conscious thought in my experience.

[emanresu]

Just responding to OP.
Recently I figured out that my playing doesn't groove at all. It did get gradually get better and more solid, time-wise.
But not very groovy. Been doing that for a while now. Trying to get the grooviness into the playing.
And guess what.. it almost completely equals to "feel-good" when it starts working.
So that's that. I'm still doing it. This time to feel good.

[jumpnblues]

Tens of dollars to be made. Lots of chicks too.......Ahem.

[pan60]

WHAT KEEPS YOU TRYING TO LEARN TO PLAY JAZZ AFTER YEARS OF TRYING

I just want more: )