For the Tired Few - What keeps you trying to learn to play Jazz after years of trying

[christianm77]

I did. Still do. Something just never clicks. I've learned maybe 75-100 tunes over the last 30 years, though I can't remember all of them. Many I studied very intensively. I just always sound lame.

You are making solid progress.

[lawson-stone]

I love the music.

I love guitars.

I enjoy a challenge...though I have to keep the frustration part in check. If you don't enjoy the challenge or can't keep the frustration in check, there are easier genres of music you can play. That option is available. But for some reason we don't take it.

Jazz is just such a deep thing, you're never going to get there. So enjoy the journey.

If you take a step back and really look at the big picture, you've probably made a lot of progress. For example...



Seriously Mr Stone...you have improved SO much in the last couple of years. You sound really good. I know it's hard to see when you're inside of it, but trust me, I've been watching.

And this is probably true of many others in this thread, it's just that Lawson Stone posts a lot of videos and I'm a youtube subscriber.

And on the rare occasions I can stop beating myself up, it's true of me too. I couldn't play this well a few years ago. I didn't understand harmony as well. It took me longer to learn a tune. My chord melodies were even worse.

I think most of us are making progress.

That is such a very kind and encouraging thing to say. Thank you. I think part of why I think my playing is so poor is precisely that I'm learning, and realizing how past playing wasn't what I (then) thought it was. You play as much of Jimmy Raney's lines as I have, and you wonder if you'll ever play bebop!

thanks again for the very encouraging words. At the moment, it's love for the guitars and how they sound that keeps me going.

[lawson-stone]

You are making solid progress.

Thank you sir. You are one of the people here I consider my on-line teachers.

[sgosnell]

I have never, ever, had any aspirations of being a professional musician. I play purely for the enjoyment, and because I feel the need. For most of my career I was away from home, in places and using transportation that simply didn't allow me to have an instrument available. I suppose a harmonica would have been possible, but nothing bigger, and I just wasn't interested in it. I played some at home, but by the time I got back home from the wilds of far south Louisiana the honey-do jobs had backed up so far that I didn't have much time for music. I regret that, but I had to put food on the table the best way I could, and I don't regret time spent with my family instead of practicing. Now in my mid 70s it's too late to become a rock star, but I have time to play as much as I want, and I do. The wife sometimes complains, but we work it out. The upside of the pandemic is that I don't have to go to the malls for her shopping habit, which rarely resulted in buying anything anyway. She gets pleasure not from buying, but just from shopping. I get pleasure from just sitting and playing guitar. I'm ahead for the time being.

[John A.]

I did. Still do. Something just never clicks. I've learned maybe 75-100 tunes over the last 30 years, though I can't remember all of them. Many I studied very intensively. I just always sound lame.

I wouldn't say that. I think your chord-melody playing often sounds quite good, and you seem to have a knack for putting together arrangements. I think your improv needs more work than your chord-melody playing (much the opposite for me), but I definitely hear improvement; it comes together more often than you give yourself credit for. Being dissatisfied with your playing (paradoxically) is a sign of learning.

John

[Marinero]

"I didn't have much time for music. I regret that, but I had to put food on the table the best way I could, and I don't regret time spent with my family instead of practicing." sgosnell


Hi, S,
And, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head! A devotee of the Arts needs time and this is exactly the reason why a young person who has dreams of being a "professional" needs to consider his real chances for success and the amount of time he/she needs to gain competency/artistry. If life passes you by, you'll never get those years back. This is why, historically, artists had patrons or chose to live the life of a poete maudit. Today, nothing has really changed. It's a rough road with no real promise of commercial success as some on this forum have shared.
Many in my generation who played professionally didn't have to make the choice, ultimately, since Disco Music changed the scene forever. It, for me, put the final nail in the coffin in the late 70's for playing live music and making a "living." The jobs disappeared and turntables/DJ's or recorded tracks were the soup du jour in all but a few venues. Today, I have a friend who still does Rock gigs in the bar circuit and is a very good bassist who plays in a 4 piece group that does three one-hour sets and they get $150-$200. a night. That's what we made in the early 70's in the R@B/Soul groups in which I played---fifty years later! Sometimes, I wish I made just $1.00 an hour for every hour spent in a practice room. It would easily buy a nice collection of L5's and luthier-built Classical guitars. Play live . . . Marinero

P.S. How does this relate to this thread? Simply, that if your goal is to perform professionally, you may gain competence and have no prospects for paying jobs. M

[John A.]

[QUOTE=Marinero;1080667]And, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head! A devotee of the Arts needs time and this is exactly the reason why a young person who has dreams of being a "professional" needs to consider his real chances for success and the amount of time he/she needs to gain competency/artistry.[/QUOTE

And there's the rub -- in order to actually have a career in the arts you have to set aside the those concerns (or be a person who never has such concerns in the first place). No one who thinks about it rationally in terms of prospects and return on investment would do it. The only way is to assume you will succeed and to organize your life around that, and keep going until you either do or can't try anymore.

John

[lawson-stone]

I wouldn't say that. I think your chord-melody playing often sounds quite good, and you seem to have a knack for putting together arrangements. I think your improv needs more work than your chord-melody playing (much the opposite for me), but I definitely hear improvement; it comes together more often than you give yourself credit for. Being dissatisfied with your playing (paradoxically) is a sign of learning.

John

Thanks for that encouragement. I think you are right in the last sentence!

[Bflat233]

I am nine years into playing jazz guitar and what keeps me going is the music: listening to it, making it, discovering new sounds that I want to create, then having to go into the woodshed for hours - or days or months - to open another door to make that sound come out of my guitar. Listening to jazz is a huge part of my life. Making jazz allows me to feel like I am participating. Whether it's jamming with a friend, performing, or going to a workshop, jazz gets me out of my comfort zone and stretches me. As a listener and a player, what I hear and appreciate is constantly evolving. I can't imagine life without music.

[Marinero]

" I can't imagine life without music." 3rdwaverider


Me, too!

Play live . . . Marinero

[Gabor]

The standards. The stock of standards seems to be endless, and I always find a new one to learn, (maybe to often) because I desperately want to get know, play and improvise it.

So here is a trap: they often say, play what you love, play your heroes. When I started, then advanced a year, I transcribed and played (tried) Bright Size Life, Unity Village, or Guardian Angel and similar... because PM and John McLaughlin were my heroes. Despite those are giant recordings, not optimal to learn a language and suboptimal to progress. Too specific to the artist itself.

Falling love in standards changed my stuck. Just learning them (the heads I mean) gives an unconcious vocabulary of melody ideas, and get knowing the harmonic patterns give an unconcious understanding what happens in jazz, progress shows up in the form of "side effect" (a hobbyist said)

[Pycroft]

"I didn't have much time for music. I regret that, but I had to put food on the table the best way I could, and I don't regret time spent with my family instead of practicing." sgosnell


... artists had patrons or chose to live the life of a poete maudit...

C'est le Diable qui tient les fils qui nous remuent .

[blackcat]

C'est le Diable qui tient les fils qui nous remuent .

Le maître de marionnettes ultime? Do correct me svp.

[Cunamara]

It's fun. That's what keeps me going. Even just hitting one note on the guitar that sounds really good makes me feel great.

But I try not to have any illusions that I am highly talented or will ever be a great jazz guitarist. Well, since I'm 61, that will certainly never happen. Almost all great musicians began by the age of 10 or so; I didn't begin until I was 20. There is something about brain development in childhood that is crucial to developing musical ability. In fourth grade I got assigned to play the cello, but my heart was never in it (I wanted to play guitar but they didn't have that available at my school) so I did not put the effort into it. Even if I had, it would have paid forward into playing the guitar when I got around to that.

[Bach5G]

I got my first guitar for my 11th birthday. Soon, I will be turning 66. So, 55 years of playing the guitar. My teacher tells me I’m making good progress.

[Marinero]

To Pycroft and blackcat,

Although I don't speak French, I loved those quotes. They will become part of my arsenal in the future! Great!

Play live . . . sin Diablo????? . . . Marinero

[Beaubs]

I simply love the sounds of guitar strings playing notes and chords, especially major 7th chords. Those notes light up the neurons in my brain and changes me...

[Grigoris]

I'm reviving this;

I watched a video of Scofield explaining how he learns a new scale by playing in intervals of 3rds, 4ths etc. I get lost in a matter of seconds, my mind cannot see all those shapes. Is it shapes we are after? Does the fretboard light up for you in patterns when you're playing the changes?

Playing the melodic minor in all positions; is that music? No, you need vocabulary; Trying to learn solos by ear to get more vocabulary feels futile. I might get to play the phrase, but I have no idea what I'm doing.
When I improvise in groups, it's just my ear that's guiding me, but that's not enough.

The only thing that helped a little was Pat Martino's Linear Expressions because you feel like you're making music.

I'm chasing my own tail. I don't want to quit, but I have had enough of feeling crap every time. It's the Sisyphus myth in real life.

[Bobby Timmons]

I'm chasing my own tail. I don't want to quit, but I have had enough of feeling crap every time. It's the Sisyphus myth in real life.

Don't give up sir!

I watched a video of Scofield explaining how he learns a new scale by playing in intervals of 3rds, 4ths etc. I get lost in a matter of seconds, my mind cannot see all those shapes. Is it shapes we are after? Does the fretboard light up for you in patterns when you're playing the changes?

For advanced concepts, I think it's important to be sensible about your goals. It's important to push yourself with a few advanced topics, but don't kill yourself with them. I really like intervals, but it took me a long time to be able to play the sequences well and actually integrate them in my playing, like a year.

Playing the melodic minor in all positions; is that music? No, you need vocabulary.

You need both. You need command of the raw materials that you can shape into music, and you need vocab. If you listen to Bill Evans, he uses almost no licks, it's mostly his own stuff that he comes up with from the raw materials.

Trying to learn solos by ear to get more vocabulary feels futile. I might get to play the phrase, but I have no idea what I'm doing.

Figure out the phrase, learn it well, and analyze it to see what it is, how to integrate it, and how to apply it in situations in the future.

When I improvise in groups, it's just my ear that's guiding me, but that's not enough.

Playing music proficiently isn't only ear. It's ear, theory, technique, and creativity. You need to build all those areas.

[Bach5G]

I just did a week of jazz camp. It was mainly geared for high school and young college types (they’re so nice!), but there were a few older cats. The guitar instructors were the city’s top guy and a heavy hitter from Montreal. There were four of us in the class, so lots of room for personal interaction. The last session got cut short and three of us have agreed to set up a Zoom session to finish it up.

I was very much re-inspired. I think I can see a light at the end of the tunnel, but I’ve thought that before.

I’ll add that in our theory class we looked at various solos, eg Lester Young in Lady Be Good, and checked out the changes and the solos. On LBG, half the class sang the roots while the other half sang Lester’s solo (it had been notated). Great fun.

[jim777]

What keeps me trying? It seems like fun, and I LOVE the guitars But seriously, I took up trying to play jazz (as opposed to 'playing jazz') because rock just got so damned boring. It was a way to start over without having to completely start over.

[charlieparker]

Interesting question. First off, I love the music, but paradoxically listening isn't sufficient. For some reason, I feel a drive to make music myself. I'm not really sure why, though, but there is a satisfaction when I produce something that sounds like Jazz.

Progress has been slow or minimal for me for a number of reasons. Number 1 being that, every time I try and ramp up practicing I run into back pain.

Also, I think I've been working on the wrong thing for many years. I've now become convinced that rhythm is paramount and if you can play authentic jazz rhythms in time then the notes don't matter that much.

I've also become convinced that one should start with simpler forms like swing era tunes and progress to bebop after developing a fluency with the older styles.

[Mick-7]

I'm reviving this;

I watched a video of Scofield explaining how he learns a new scale by playing in intervals of 3rds, 4ths etc. I get lost in a matter of seconds, my mind cannot see all those shapes. Is it shapes we are after? Does the fretboard light up for you in patterns when you're playing the changes?

Playing the melodic minor in all positions; is that music? No, you need vocabulary; Trying to learn solos by ear to get more vocabulary feels futile. I might get to play the phrase, but I have no idea what I'm doing.

When I improvise in groups, it's just my ear that's guiding me, but that's not enough.

You have raised some very important points. Here's the thing: You have to combine learning and practice if you want to get anywhere. That means, you don't just practice playing scales or chord arpeggios (which are derived from scales), you make music out of them. Improvise with the scales and chord tones over common chord changes. Play or try to play lines you hear and analyze them, what scale(s) do those notes come from? Everything you learn needs to be applied to making music, which is the end goal. If you feel like you're not making progress and/or the musical effort is no fun, it's a sure sign your approach is wrong.

Progress has been slow or minimal for me for a number of reasons. Number 1 being that, every time I try and ramp up practicing I run into back pain.

Sounds like you need a find a solution for that, the causes and remedies. And at the very least, divide up your practice time, take breaks between each session.

Also, I think I've been working on the wrong thing for many years. I've now become convinced that rhythm is paramount and if you can play authentic jazz rhythms in time then the notes don't matter that much.

One can and should work on both at the same time.

I've also become convinced that one should start with simpler forms like swing era tunes and progress to bebop after developing a fluency with the older styles.

Well yes, blues > chords with simpler chord changes > rhythm changes, etc.

[tbeltrans]

Can't say that I really play jazz guitar. I play chord melody, essentially borrowing jazz harmony ideas to play tunes. I have never really been into soloing over changes and such. In the late 1970s, I was fortunate enough to play guitar in a full time trio that played supper clubs, resorts, and Holiday Inn circuit. It was the whole deal with agents, joining the union, constant touring all over the US and Canada. After two years of never being home, lots of time driving to the next gig, living out of a suitcase, dealing with the AF of M, etc., I decided to leave and look for another career. I am eternally grateful for having been able to do that AND have a choice to quit or continue, especially after talking to a number of people around my age who regret not having done it. These days, from what I hear, you can't really make a living out of it. Back then, you could.

So for me, being able to play what I want and arrange the tunes myself is enjoyable. If I were slogging through scales and chord progressions and whatever else it takes to build a reasonably professional jazz vocabulary and technique, I probably would have quit some time ago. Don't get me wrong - I can read standard notation, know major and minor scales all over the fretboard, can name any note anywhere on the fretboard, and have a solid foundation in music theory. But there is much more to being a real jazz musician. That is why I don't classify myself as a "jazz" guitarist. I know what it takes and I have enough respect for the art form to not count myself among those paying their dues. I am just having fun and playing when I feel like it. Nothing wrong with either approach as long as we don't confuse them.

Tony

[pauln]

If you're in the ditch or hitting the wall or whatever description of impatience with learning progress, I would recommend composing; it's fundamentally different from reading, or transcribing, or lessons, or books, or backing tracks, etc. You can work with those things "satisfactorily" and still not grasp some of music's inner magic. Composing tunes uses everything you already know in a very different way.
Everyone who has composed a tune has noticed that the tune is virtually impossible to forget, despite forgetting simpler other tunes they learned. Composing is an internalization machine - highly reliant on what you have already internalized and encouraging internalization of all the other things you set out to learn into much more familiar and successful processes.

Composing
- reveals and confronts you with what you don't know, which allows you to find it
- shifts transcription from the sound of others to the sound of your mind's inner ear
- forces you to integrate things that you don't when using external source materials
- draws from internalization and promotes that perspective to grasp external sources

You don't have to replace your practicing with composing, just commit to composing a tune and spend the first 5-10 minutes each practice session working on it, no hurry, treat it as warming up. It will make a positive difference in your perspective regarding the rest of practicing.