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  1. #51

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    My all time favorite thing is Chinatown theme from the movie. There are several versions but I dig this the most. Love the piano there so much.
    Love Theme (From "Chinatown"), a song by Jerry Goldsmith, J.A.C. Redford, Carl Allen, Kenny Kirkland, Reginald Veal, Terence Blanchard on Spotify

    Imho, there is not so much reason to be a fan or hater of some generic thing in music like genre, instrument or player.
    Sometimes this happens but I think its much easier to appreciate individual pieces and not worry about liking the entire catalogue...
    But to OP, these things may take time. I hated to listen to 3x90min tapes of classical music for exams so much that I grew to kinda hate the whole thing.
    Not hate.. but you know, I avoided listening that in my own time. 20 years later and I have my car radio on classical channel and its such a pleasure now.
    Same thing happened in jazz college. Now, after finishing some years back, I love to hear jazz guitar solos that "talk". Not into anything crazy... at least yet
    That is quite common, we've discussed this with some friends (non-musicians) - they get a bit older and tend to skip pop and rock and also get to like those.. hm.. more complex and sophisticated things more and more.

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  3. #52

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    Piano’s a funny one. A blank canvas as an instrument, kind of a machine, not particularly expressive (well more so than a harpsichord), but many great artists have somehow transcended it to an extraordinary degree.

    It must be funny not playing your own instrument on tour or in the studio... let alone having to create your own distinctive sound on whatever the piano de jour happens to be.

    I have a lot of favourite pianists.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    I see what you mean and maybe I agree. I have a recording of Chick Corea (Acoustic band) on which he sounds pretty much the same the whole album. After the first song you know what Corea has to offer. But . . . . on the other hand this invites us to listen to the music. The chords, melody, rhythm, etc. Not to Chick Corea.
    But this could be a guitar-player listening to a piano player. When I listen to a guitar player it's easier to hear differences, because I know the instrument better. I recognize some sax players but most of the time I hear a sax player.
    Corea is also a drummer. And it's obvious in his playing because he plays the piano often as if its a drum. That's part of his trademark style. But Corea is also a top notch Classical player, like Herbie, and Jarrett. Classical is where they come from.

    But Corea's Acoustic band playing is not his best work. Corea from the later 70's with his recordings featuring Steve Gadd, Eddie Gomez, Joe Farrell etc. were about as good as it gets. His later stuff didn't move me as much, but his earlier stuff was nothing but brilliant.




  5. #54

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    "If it's blasphemy, then stone me."

    Lawson you?

  6. #55

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    Personally, I love it all. I appreciate and respect the technical capacity and musicality that's required to play any instrument exceptionally well. To say you've heard all of what's to hear from someone in 10 minutes sounds a bit ignorant.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    "If it's blasphemy, then stone me."

    Lawson you?
    He's poking the bear. He loves piano, but is afraid to admit it. How can you not love Beethoven?

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    I see what you mean and maybe I agree. I have a recording of Chick Corea (Acoustic band) on which he sounds pretty much the same the whole album. After the first song you know what Corea has to offer. But . . . . on the other hand this invites us to listen to the music. The chords, melody, rhythm, etc. Not to Chick Corea.
    But this could be a guitar-player listening to a piano player. When I listen to a guitar player it's easier to hear differences, because I know the instrument better. I recognize some sax players but most of the time I hear a sax player.
    You make a good point there. I actually enjoy Oscar Peterson but only for a a short time. For the same reason, I also found fusion guitar kind of boring. Al DiMeola had fantastic chops, but I found it hard to keep listening after 10 minutes. I also find some of Pat Martino's longer solos equally difficult to stay with simply because the endless stretches of 8th notes at high tempos merges together. Both of these are amazing players justly admired for their accomplishments. This is just my reaction. I like to hear someone work with the instrument, select their weapons, as it were, make their statement, provoke curiosity, invite response, and so forth.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Personally, I love it all. I appreciate and respect the technical capacity and musicality that's required to play any instrument exceptionally well. To say you've heard all of what's to hear from someone in 10 minutes sounds a bit ignorant.
    I'm sorry you feel that way. But I actually have listened to a lot of piano playing in many genres. When I say the first 10 minutes says it all for some players I mean they push and crowd too much of their vocabulary into every line. They can't open up with some space, work with varying concepts, leave room in the music for the hearer to breath. I don't get that from some players. Oddly, the old bop guitarists like Jimmy Raney and Joe Pass who play these long lines still somehow seem (to me) to leave room for a hearer to respond and enjoy.

    I hope you do not consider it ignorance when someone simply does not share your preference. We have had enough, I think, in recent days, of people treating those who differ from them as if they were somehow deficient. We are all different. Neither you nor I have been appointed the arbiter of good taste in music. I've made a point of stating my feelings here strictly as my own personal impressions and reactions, not judgments.Those who play guitar but don't actually like the guitar puzzle me, but that's their life and I can still respect them and enjoy their contributions.

    I hope you are made of that same stuff.

  10. #59

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    You can dislike the piano and you can dislike Beethoven. Both are within the range of possibilities.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I'm sorry you feel that way. But I actually have listened to a lot of piano playing in many genres. When I say the first 10 minutes says it all for some players I mean they push and crowd too much of their vocabulary into every line. They can't open up with some space, work with varying concepts, leave room in the music for the hearer to breath. I don't get that from some players. Oddly, the old bop guitarists like Jimmy Raney and Joe Pass who play these long lines still somehow seem (to me) to leave room for a hearer to respond and enjoy.

    I hope you do not consider it ignorance when someone simply does not share your preference. We have had enough, I think, in recent days, of people treating those who differ from them as if they were somehow deficient. We are all different. Neither you nor I have been appointed the arbiter of good taste in music. I've made a point of stating my feelings here strictly as my own personal impressions and reactions, not judgments.Those who play guitar but don't actually like the guitar puzzle me, but that's their life and I can still respect them and enjoy their contributions.

    I hope you are made of that same stuff.
    You like space, here's some space. Simply but one of many great albums by the late great Oscar Peterson. And his work with the late great Ray Brown, and Herb Ellis was exquisite.



    Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 11-14-2020 at 05:51 PM.

  12. #61

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    156 Million find this so boring that they listen to it over and over again. It's probably only the most recognized piano piece ever written. And just when you feel you've mastered it musically, you recognize, oh, I still have some work to do.


  13. #62

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    Artur Rubenstein’s recordings of the Chopin Sonatas. Give a whirl on the ol’turntable. The dynamics of his playing, and the music, are beatific.

    You know, Tal Farlow ‘copped’ a lot from the classical world. He was always looking out for something different harmonically that he could fit into his bag of tricks. Faure was a fav.

    My point is, without seeing through the eyes (hearing through the ears) of other musicians, instruments and genres you are only cheating your own musical education. Which is why some guitarists will never be more than a guitar player, and others become musicians playing the guitar.

  14. #63

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    I can understand the Oscar Peterson being boring. Great player but, as Lawson Stone said you've heard what he has to say in about 10 minutes.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by arielcee
    I can understand the Oscar Peterson being boring. Great player but, as Lawson Stone said you've heard what he has to say in about 10 minutes.
    Hey, everyone has a right to their own preferences. To each their own. But Oscar is only one of the most recorded artists ever. Where is your recording?

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    My point is, without seeing through the eyes (hearing through the ears) of other musicians, instruments and genres you are only cheating your own musical education
    That's precisely my point. The instrument is irrelevant. Greatness comes in all forms. But to suggest the piano is boring, when there are literally hundreds and hundreds of great piano players, was a stupid comment, IMO.

  17. #66

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    "But to suggest the piano is boring was a stupid comment, IMO"

    not a stupid comment Greg, it's boring to him
    not everyone has to like piano. I like listening to certain players but never had any desire to play it, it's way down my list of what I'd like to play if I didn't play guitar.
    now, organ? sign me up. I never learned to play and sold my B-3 a couple years ago, always wanted to have one in the house and it was easy for organ players to come over for rehearsals. kept one of my Leslies though and it's hooked up to a small portable Hammond now. The old B was just taking up too much room.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    "But to suggest the piano is boring was a stupid comment, IMO"

    not a stupid comment Greg, it's boring to him
    not everyone has to like piano. I like listening to certain players but never had any desire to play it, it's way down my list of what I'd like to play if I didn't play guitar.
    now, organ? sign me up
    How can you call yourself a musician and not appreciate piano too? It's only like the entire orchestra.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Hey, everyone has a right to their own preferences. To each their own. But Oscar is only one of the most recorded artists ever. Where is your recording?
    You're just getting defensive now. You don't have to be a virtuoso to have an intelligent, informed like or dislike, passion or indifference, toward a particular musical instrument or composer.

    This is not about you, sir. We don't all have the same frame of reference, we don't all share the same aesthetic sensibilities, we don't all enjoy the same jokes, find the same women attractive, or like the same foods. It doesn't make anyone ignorant or arrogant or deficient somehow. It just makes them what they are.

    Which kind of fits what I've said about the piano. The lack of limitations can engender a kind of imperialism that crowds out other voices. You love the piano, it's obvious. That's great. Others don't. That's great too. Can you see that without putting on the lenses of a value judgment against the others' different sensibilities?

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    You're just getting defensive now. You don't have to be a virtuoso to have an intelligent, informed like or dislike, passion or indifference, toward a particular musical instrument or composer.

    This is not about you, sir. We don't all have the same frame of reference, we don't all share the same aesthetic sensibilities, we don't all enjoy the same jokes, find the same women attractive, or like the same foods. It doesn't make anyone ignorant or arrogant or deficient somehow. It just makes them what they are.

    Which kind of fits what I've said about the piano. The lack of limitations can engender a kind of imperialism that crowds out other voices. You love the piano, it's obvious. That's great. Others don't. That's great too. Can you see that without putting on the lenses of a value judgment against the others' different sensibilities?
    Yes, I can see piano is not for you. And I'm perfectly fine with that. I don't relate, but hey, it's not about me. Do your thang!

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    How can you call yourself a musician and not appreciate piano too? It's only like the entire orchestra.
    See what you're doing here? You're taking someone's different sensibility, different preference, and turning it into a matter of superiority or inferiority. I hope one thing we've learned in recent years is that we have to be able to express differences in perception, response, opinion, and yes, artistic sensibility without implicitly (or explicitly!) consigning those not like us to a lower status.

    The very problem, for me, with the piano is that in fact it IS the entire orchestra, except only the notes. No strings, no woodwinds, no brass, just padded hammers striking strings. But it can cover all the notes. But it isn't the same. Dvorak's "From the New World" can be played on piano. But who want to hear it? I want to hear the Boston Symphony Orchestra play it.

    Funny how sometimes the voices calling most for diversity often react the most negatively to the fact of actual diversity.

  22. #71

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    screw the piano, I can’t believe no-one’s mentioned the bagpipes yet.


  23. #72

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    Also good friends, I've said my peace here on the topic, or off-topic, as the case may be. I don't want to inflame passions excessively, so I'm happy to sit down and be quiet. I don't have anything else of use or insight to offer. People of sophistication, talent, character, and principle can see matters vastly differently, and that makes for a truly engaging community.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Funny how sometimes the voices calling most for diversity often react the most negatively to the fact of actual diversity.
    Lol! Who's calling for diversity? I've already said do your thing. Let it go.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    screw the piano, I can’t believe no-one’s mentioned the bagpipes yet.

    I knew Rufus! he used to sit in on some of our gigs back in the day.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    That's precisely my point. The instrument is irrelevant. Greatness comes in all forms. But to suggest the piano is boring, when there are literally hundreds and hundreds of great piano players, was a stupid comment, IMO.
    The only one being stupid in this thread is you. But hey, once you graduate high school I'm sure things will change.

  27. #76

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    Everyone should play whichever instrument they like and listen to whatever they like.

    I like listening to most instruments, but I go through phases of liking different things. One of the things I like about jazz is there is always another great musician out there you haven’t heard, it’s inexhaustible.

    I even took up the sax for a while many years ago, but eventually realised it was getting nowhere so I stuck to the guitar. Which was for the best, as I could never have put in the hours on the sax late at night when the kids were in bed. But I could practise quietly in the evenings on the guitar, and that’s how I progressed.

    I like to think you can learn something from all instruments and apply it to the guitar (if you want to!).

    Maybe not the bagpipes though...

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    The only one being stupid in this thread is you. But hey, once you graduate high school I'm sure things will change.
    How was I being "stupid". I wasn't the one offending others suggesting their instrument was boring.

  29. #78

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    well, to be honest, that Mathis stuff you posted is boring...............to me anyway

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    well, to be honest, that Mathis stuff you posted is boring...............to me anyway
    You don't appreciate Mathis either! Hey, I posted it for the Mathis lovers in the house.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    You don't appreciate Mathis either! Hey, I posted it for the Mathis lovers in the house.
    I didn't know there were any!
    Does he really belong in a 'soul' music thread?

  32. #81

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    The guitar is more beautiful (Chopin said 'there is nothing more beautiful than the guitar, except two guitars'), but pianists often play more music.

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    I didn't know there were any!
    Does he really belong in a 'soul' music thread?
    I'm running out of soul music hits.

  34. #83

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    Sorry for starting a firestorm. Certainly didn't mean to say I don't like or even love the guitar or it's players. Definitely not that at all. Can't remember where I was going. Maybe just the grass is greener on the other side. I put down guitar for a year to work on saxophone and same thing kind of happened. I envy the person who can never get tired of something no matter how much they do it. It's strange, though, I read or hear about famous musicians like Trane, Wayne, Sonny, to name a few who at times said they weren't really listening to music much. Whatever, it doesn't really matter. People get inspiration from wherever and whatever. If we all listened to the same stuff, practiced the same things then we'd sound more homogeneous and boring than many people probably think we already do.
    Last edited by arielcee; 11-15-2020 at 09:32 AM.

  35. #84

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    I seem to recall an interview with Julian Bream where he was asked if he liked listening to classical guitar recordings. He said no, he had enough of playing the guitar all day, and most of the guitar repertoire was not by the greatest composers. He said he preferred listening to Haydn string quartets.

    Someone asked Dexter Gordon if he listened to jazz records and he said his head was so full of all the music he had ever heard that he couldn’t stand listening to any records!

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The guitar is more beautiful (Chopin said 'there is nothing more beautiful than the guitar, except two guitars'), but pianists often play more music.
    If Chopin would’ve lived in the internet era, he would probably make a forum thread titled “piano is irrelevant”.

  37. #86

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    The piano is a superb instrument. Some of you don’t like the way players play. Piano players can say the same about guitar players. That’s irrelevant criticism. The piano is the most relevant instrument. If it weren’t you wouldn’t have people navigating 800 pounds of wood and wire up 10 flights of stairs.

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    The piano is a superb instrument. Some of you don’t like the way players play. Piano players can say the same about guitar players. That’s irrelevant criticism. The piano is the most relevant instrument. If it weren’t you wouldn’t have people navigating 800 pounds of wood and wire up 10 flights of stairs.
    The only irrelevant criticism is your criticism of irrelevant criticism.

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    The only irrelevant criticism is your criticism of irrelevant criticism.
    And you know where you can stick your criticism.

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by arielcee
    Sorry for starting a firestorm ... If we all listened to the same stuff, practiced the same things then we'd sound more homogeneous and boring than many people probably think we already do.
    I think you raised an interesting and relevant question which gave rise to several reflections. Thank you for that.

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Let's face it, when it comes to playing or listening to an instrument, the piano is limitless. It's the cats meow. And it never gets boring. Or, Freddie Hubbard on Flugel, or Dexter Gordon on sax, who never runs out of ideas.

    Just like any instrument piano has it's limitations, one HUGE disadvantage is the fact that there is very little ways to change the sound of the note once it is hit, compared to a guitar or a horn.
    Another is, very limited options is HOW to hit the note compared to a horn and even more so a guitar.

    A horn has a HUGE disadvantage as it is a single note instrument, so chords etc...

    And the list goes on and on...

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by greveost
    Just like any instrument piano has it's limitations, one HUGE disadvantage is the fact that there is very little ways to change the sound of the note once it is hit, compared to a guitar or a horn.
    Another is, very limited options is HOW to hit the note compared to a horn and even more so a guitar.

    A horn has a HUGE disadvantage as it is a single note instrument, so chords etc...

    And the list goes on and on...
    But making good music doesn’t require one to bend notes. And you can play legato or staccato if you choose. But if the piano has so many limitations, as you say, how do you explain that every major piano player is both easily noticeable and has there own voice. And you can tell women and men each have their own unique voice. This should be impossible to do if the piano was so limited in its playability. But it’s not. One can discern McCoy Tyner from Bill Evans from Ahmad Jamal from Oscar Peterson from Keith Jarrett from Alan Broadbent. Each is immediately recognizable and with their own unique voice.

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Everybody secretly wants to be a guitarist.

    Attachment 76830
    Mark Twain, James Joyce & Yul Brynner also played guitar.

    Add to the list, please, if you can.

  44. #93

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    André Previn: You’re playing all the wrong notes.

    Eric Morecambe: I am playing all the right notes; but not necessarily in the right order.


  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I'm not much of a fan of piano. Louder, faster seems to be the theme. Like trumpet players: High Loud Fast. I do have recordings of pianists, usually comping for guitarists ;-)

    I tire of piano after about 15 minutes. Peterson is astounding. But after 10 minutes you've heard all he's got because he put it all out there in the first tune. He uses his entire vocabulary on every single chorus because the piano invites it. Maybe I like Bill Evans more.

    So no, I don't like piano enough to spend a lot of time listening to piano-centric music.

    If it's blasphemy, then stone me.
    The topic of jazz pianist has been discussed before at this forum and what you mention isn't unusual. I tend to agree with what you're saying here. Related to your comment of "entire vocabulary on every single chorus": I would add that often one can't tell the first chorus from the last one; L less build-up-soloing (I.e. the building of ideas from the first chorus to the last one and how the ideas are connected); lack of tension and release in a solo or within a chorus of a solo. This results in a degree of "sameness" in each chorus. As noted within this "sameness" is some fantastic musicianship, but does the overall song \ solo lose some musicality? It does to my ears.

    Of course this isn't limited to piano players but as you note "the piano invites it"; I.e. one can do a lot with two hands on a piano that the vast majority of other instruments can't get close to. That is the inherent strength of a piano, but it can also become a weakness.

    Thus I prefer listening to say, Kenny Drew, over Peterson or Tatum.

  46. #95

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    Kenny Drew Jr was talented too. Here he is playing only using his left hand. Gone way too soon at 56!


  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    But making good music doesn’t require one to bend notes.
    I never said that

    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    But if the piano has so many limitations

    I never said that, I said piano has it's limitations, just like any other instrument. And it was a response to your opinion that the piano is limitless. Which of course it isn't, not by any stretch of the imagination.

  48. #97

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    Of course it’s possible to enjoy piano and guitar working together sometimes:


  49. #98

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    Melhdau and Metheny is another.

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Everyone should play whichever instrument they like and listen to whatever they like.

    I like listening to most instruments, but I go through phases of liking different things. One of the things I like about jazz is there is always another great musician out there you haven’t heard, it’s inexhaustible.

    I even took up the sax for a while many years ago, but eventually realised it was getting nowhere so I stuck to the guitar. Which was for the best, as I could never have put in the hours on the sax late at night when the kids were in bed. But I could practise quietly in the evenings on the guitar, and that’s how I progressed.

    I like to think you can learn something from all instruments and apply it to the guitar (if you want to!).

    Maybe not the bagpipes though...
    I live in Scotland and there are lots of bagpipe buskers churning out Amazing Grace and Scotland The Brave, and all that. You get used to it. But the best one was a young girl music student who played Swedish folk songs on the pipes. She vanished one day, don't know what happened to her.

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I live in Scotland and there are lots of bagpipe buskers churning out Amazing Grace and Scotland The Brave, and all that. You get used to it. But the best one was a young girl music student who played Swedish folk songs on the pipes. She vanished one day, don't know what happened to her.
    Probably took up jazz guitar and was never heard of again.