The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Improving time feel has been a struggle. It has seemed as if some players just have great feel, others don't, and you can't change categories.

    I'm aware of the usual recommendations for metronome practice. Some swear by it, others disparage it. I don't think I got much out of it.
    There are other techniques which are recommended, which I won't review here.

    But, I am writing to mention something which I think has resulted in some fairly rapid (compared to the usual glacial pace) improvement.

    Basically, it has been playing with a great drummer, an absolutely solid bassist and a kb player with great time feel.

    With them, it often feels as if I can't play anything wrong, whereas, in the past, with lesser (but still pro or semipro) support, it has felt like I can't play anything right.

    I've been recording the sessions too. I've heard lots of things I felt I needed to improve -- the difference seems to be that it's easier to implement the improvements with a great rhythm section. I think the recording is essential.

    The goal is to internalize it so I'm not dependent on others for great time feel. I don't know to what degree that's possible.

    My suggestion to others on this path is to find a way to spend as much time as possible playing with the strongest rhythm section you can.

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  3. #2

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    My guess would be that if you can play with the strongest possible rhythm section, there is probably nothing wrong with your time-feel. I grew up playing music and i didn't know anything else but having a good time-feel.

    But you're right. You should play with people better than yourself. At least better in some areas. Playing with a metronome is good practice but my gues would be that playing alongside band in a box type of software helps even better.

  4. #3

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    In my experience finding a good drummer that actually plays jazz is near impossible and I live in miami (this was before the pandemic). Putting up craigslist ads up online can only do so much and while I have jammed with other instrumentalists using the website the only one drummer that responded to my jazz ad there doesn't know anything about jazz and thinks he can just wing it without listening to any of the songs in the setlist.

    Time has always been elusive to me. I'm empty-headed (airhead for short) so in a way I actually don't feel anything most of the time. Its almost as if I'm a perpetual monk and have no need to empty my mind because my mind is already empty. There may be times when my mind gets foggy but thats only when I practice a shit ton of hours.

    But anyways regarding Time. I'm always lost and have no idea where I'm at so I have to estimate when my solo will end and sometimes I just end it too early. I don't know whether I'm in time or out of time even when I listen to recordings of myself. Though if things get really bad and out of place then thats when it becomes obvious to me that my time is really off. I attempted counting while soloing but I usually don't make it past the first two bars. Too much of a challenge.

    All I got to say is if you know a good drummer.. please protect him/her at all costs. PLEASE

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    In my experience finding a good drummer that actually plays jazz is near impossible and I live in miami (this was before the pandemic). Putting up craigslist ads up online can only do so much and while I have jammed with other instrumentalists using the website the only one drummer that responded to my jazz ad there doesn't know anything about jazz and thinks he can just wing it without listening to any of the songs in the setlist.

    Time has always been elusive to me. I'm empty-headed (airhead for short) so in a way I actually don't feel anything most of the time. Its almost as if I'm a perpetual monk and have no need to empty my mind because my mind is already empty. There may be times when my mind gets foggy but thats only when I practice a shit ton of hours.

    But anyways regarding Time. I'm always lost and have no idea where I'm at so I have to estimate when my solo will end and sometimes I just end it too early. I don't know whether I'm in time or out of time even when I listen to recordings of myself. Though if things get really bad and out of place then thats when it becomes obvious to me that my time is really off. I attempted counting while soloing but I usually don't make it past the first two bars. Too much of a challenge.

    All I got to say is if you know a good drummer.. please protect him/her at all costs. PLEASE
    Given the amount of time, effort and money a lot of jazzers have invested, I think it makes sense to hire a top pro to play with you, to the extent it fits your budget. Bass and drums, if you can afford it. You can book a group lesson and share the cost with your fellow journeymen . In Covid times, the pros will be happy to get paid work. For many of us, that will require playing outside, distanced and masked.

    It's also worth remembering that even top pros take lessons.

    Another couple of points about making this work. If they're not getting paid, the bassist and drummer have to love each other. If one thinks the other sucks, you will lose him. Also, don't expect top pros to want to play Real Book tunes if they're not getting paid. They need to be challenged or, at least, be presented with novel material. So, you need some arrangements of interesting tunes. You can write them or you can buy them.

    I'd also suggest thinking of the sessions as workshops, not jams. The idea isn't just to run through the tunes, but to figure out how to make them sound great -- so everybody has the option, at all times, to suggest trying something again, slowing it down, or looping a section -- whatever it takes.

    Another point about the great drummers. Everyone of them that I've played with is more responsive to what I play than the journeymen. That is, they listen and react. This makes it much easier to play. So, for example, if I want part of my solo to be quiet, the pros will follow it, all the way down to a whisper. Most journeymen, in my experience, won't vary much and I can't get them to come down to a whisper even with hand signals. Just not part of their lexicon. Another thing about the great drummers is that you will hear your rhythmic content echoed in the drums. Some are uncanny in their ability to anticipate what the soloist is going to do next. This is a very different playing experience.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 09-11-2020 at 05:32 PM.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    But anyways regarding Time. I'm always lost and have no idea where I'm at so I have to estimate when my solo will end and sometimes I just end it too early. I don't know whether I'm in time or out of time even when I listen to recordings of myself. Though if things get really bad and out of place then thats when it becomes obvious to me that my time is really off. I attempted counting while soloing but I usually don't make it past the first two bars. Too much of a challenge.
    Stop counting. Listen to the chords. You don't have a time problem. You just don't know where you are in a song.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Given the amount of time, effort and money a lot of jazzers have invested, I think it makes sense to hire a top pro to play with you, to the extent it fits your budget. Bass and drums, if you can afford it. You can book a group lesson and share the cost with your fellow journeymen . In Covid times, the pros will be happy to get paid work. For many of us, that will require playing outside, distanced and masked.

    It's also worth remembering that even top pros take lessons.

    Another couple of points about making this work. If they're not getting paid, the bassist and drummer have to love each other. If one thinks the other sucks, you will lose him. Also, don't expect top pros to want to play Real Book tunes if they're not getting paid. They need to be challenged or, at least, be presented with novel material. So, you need some arrangements of interesting tunes. You can write them or you can buy them.

    I'd also suggest thinking of the sessions as workshops, not jams. The idea isn't just to run through the tunes, but to figure out how to make them sound great -- so everybody has the option, at all times, to suggest trying something again, slowing it down, or looping a section -- whatever it takes.

    Another point about the great drummers. Everyone of them that I've played with is more responsive to what I play than the journeymen. That is, they listen and react. This makes it much easier to play. So, for example, if I want part of my solo to be quiet, the pros will follow it, all the way down to a whisper. Most journeymen, in my experience, won't vary much and I can't get them to come down to a whisper even with hand signals. Just not part of their lexicon. Another thing about the great drummers is that you will hear your rhythmic content echoed in the drums. Some are uncanny in their ability to anticipate what the soloist is going to do next. This is a very different playing experience.
    Interesting viewpoint. Thanks for sharing. I don't ever see myself paying others to play with me though.. But who knows

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    Stop counting. Listen to the chords. You don't have a time problem. You just don't know where you are in a song.
    Chords definitedly help!

  8. #7
    It is an excellent kind of lesson. If you're not opposed to paying for a lesson ...

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    Chords definitedly help!
    They don't help, they are key. You have a time problem if you are late or early.
    If you improvise and have no clue where you are in the progression, you have a different problem.

    Do you have any software that can play a backingtrack (or even better: pay a few pro's to play it for you )? If you improvise over the following blues progression, you should be able (or in the process of learning this) to feel or know where you are in the progression. The change to D-7 should not be a surprise, but anticipated.

    /A-7 / A-7 / A-7 / A-7 /
    /D-7 / D-7 / A-7 / A-7 /
    / F7 / E7 / A-7 / A-7 /

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    In my experience finding a good drummer that actually plays jazz is near impossible and I live in miami (this was before the pandemic). Putting up craigslist ads up online can only do so much and while I have jammed with other instrumentalists using the website the only one drummer that responded to my jazz ad there doesn't know anything about jazz and thinks he can just wing it without listening to any of the songs in the setlist.

    Time has always been elusive to me. I'm empty-headed (airhead for short) so in a way I actually don't feel anything most of the time. Its almost as if I'm a perpetual monk and have no need to empty my mind because my mind is already empty. There may be times when my mind gets foggy but thats only when I practice a shit ton of hours.

    But anyways regarding Time. I'm always lost and have no idea where I'm at so I have to estimate when my solo will end and sometimes I just end it too early. I don't know whether I'm in time or out of time even when I listen to recordings of myself. Though if things get really bad and out of place then thats when it becomes obvious to me that my time is really off. I attempted counting while soloing but I usually don't make it past the first two bars. Too much of a challenge.

    All I got to say is if you know a good drummer.. please protect him/her at all costs. PLEASE
    I'd suggest playing songs that you can sing well. Sing the lyric to yourself and play along with that.

  11. #10

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    Use long delay with metronome. Its doable with a DAW+some nice enough plugin. Havent found&used this kind of function with loopers (I'm sure there are a few like that).
    Say, 12 bar blues maybe. You first play the comp and then you play the solo while your own comp gets played back. Then your solo gets played back and you comp again.

    If you mess up the timing even a little, you'll feel it as punishment the next round. You know, its a bit painful

  12. #11

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    One aspect which has become apparent to me is how important it is to synchronise your body. Rhythm is often talked about in terms of metronomes and so on, but people could play groove and feel before the invention of the ticking box, and there are many with great feel who’ve never been near one in their lives. Synchronisation with your own innate sense of pulse is required whether or not you practice with a click.

    For example - do you find it easier to do rhythm exercises with your voice than with a guitar? I do. The voice is still more natural, and synchronised.

    Drummers are turned on to this btw for obvious reasons; it’s not nearly so obvious to guitar players etc.

    As a working musician, you have to count very often, usually because something isn’t yet intuitive, for instance in sight reading a piece. Counting has to become habitual it’s true, but it’s a mistake to think you become intuitive at doing something by not practicing it. That doesn’t work.

    Furthermore counting can be a way to synchronise the body rhythmically; speaking the beat and synchronising ones playing with it can be a great way to practice (later you can be more subtle, playing behind and so on)

    In Konnakol it is the counting that is done physically, with the hands, and the more complex rhythms expressed with the voice; the synchronisation between the two is one of the key areas of practice.

    Dancing is an obvious way to work on this too.

    One thing that would help almost anyone working on just about anything musical is to separate practicing from playing. Don’t get the two confused. One requires the conscious mind, and the other should be as intuitive as possible. However the first is often necessary preparation for the second.

    When you pick up the instrument it should always be with the intention of doing one or the other.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    They don't help, they are key. You have a time problem if you are late or early.
    If you improvise and have no clue where you are in the progression, you have a different problem.

    Do you have any software that can play a backingtrack (or even better: pay a few pro's to play it for you )? If you improvise over the following blues progression, you should be able (or in the process of learning this) to feel or know where you are in the progression. The change to D-7 should not be a surprise, but anticipated.

    /A-7 / A-7 / A-7 / A-7 /
    /D-7 / D-7 / A-7 / A-7 /
    / F7 / E7 / A-7 / A-7 /
    Like this? I used Ireal


  14. #13

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    Absolutely -- playing with a good drummer/bassist is critical (and a pure joy)!!

    Wayne Krantz talks a lot about time, and recently put out an unusual app to practice playing with "people:" The Humanome. Looks intriguing!

  15. #14

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    That seems to be an app to help those with good time to suffer less when playing with time challenged folks
    Advanced players obviously tend to play with their peers and can’t imagine how difficult it can be at lower tiers where bad time is compounded by technique issues and getting lost in a tune.

    We have a long argument in our band of amateurs, where only me is doing some rhythm precision drills. A teacher (a pro) of our sax player insists on not using a metronome - ‘to have an internal time and to get used to other people imperfections’. During their lessons they play with a drum app with ‘humanization’ level set to max, which is still way below of what our drummer is capable of (the drummer is our friend, but he is not practicing and is not even into this music, it is a once week recreational thing to him - to make some loud noises with us).
    The result - an ongoing traumatic experience, when quite often there is no common time at all, a vertigo inducing feeling of having no beat and tempo. The drummer (even when having a metronome clicking in ear plugs) is being influenced by sax player’s “rubato”, passes it through his body and returns back distorted and amplified.

    It is not getting any better and I doubt it will - it makes me drink more beer afterwards.

    It is a responsibility of everyone to support good time, not only of the rhythm section.
    I’m sure if everyone was doing exercises which bassists for example do (or are supposed to be doing) like clapping over the click, playing to one click per bar or less, playing to subdivision etc, it would make everything much more pleasant. But there are always excuses - ‘feeling’ , ‘emotion’, ‘internal sense of time’, especially from the soloing folks. I have a growing suspicion, that most of this music would benefit immensely if note placement was guided not by ‘feeling’, but by exact knowledge of subdivision this vague feeling is trying to point to. Heart likes to dance and appreciates the exact rhythm - it is what gives a great bassist’s playing a hypnotizing quality.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    Like this? I used Ireal

    Like that, set the track on repeat for 50 times.
    Am i right that this was not an improvisation? Try to improvise. Just listen to the track a few times. Play the root notes (not after the chord change, but spot on) a few rounds. Work your way up from that. Jens Larsen has a nice work out on his website where he limits himself to 3 or 4 notes. Maybe that works for you. For example only use: e d c a.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Danil
    That seems to be an app to help those with good time to suffer less when playing with time challenged folks
    Advanced players obviously tend to play with their peers and can’t imagine how difficult it can be at lower tiers where bad time is compounded by technique issues and getting lost in a tune.

    We have a long argument in our band of amateurs, where only me is doing some rhythm precision drills. A teacher (a pro) of our sax player insists on not using a metronome - ‘to have an internal time and to get used to other people imperfections’. During their lessons they play with a drum app with ‘humanization’ level set to max, which is still way below of what our drummer is capable of (the drummer is our friend, but he is not practicing and is not even into this music, it is a once week recreational thing to him - to make some loud noises with us).
    The result - an ongoing traumatic experience, when quite often there is no common time at all, a vertigo inducing feeling of having no beat and tempo. The drummer (even when having a metronome clicking in ear plugs) is being influenced by sax player’s “rubato”, passes it through his body and returns back distorted and amplified.

    It is not getting any better and I doubt it will - it makes me drink more beer afterwards.

    It is a responsibility of everyone to support good time, not only of the rhythm section.
    I’m sure if everyone was doing exercises which bassists for example do (or are supposed to be doing) like clapping over the click, playing to one click per bar or less, playing to subdivision etc, it would make everything much more pleasant. But there are always excuses - ‘feeling’ , ‘emotion’, ‘internal sense of time’, especially from the soloing folks. I have a growing suspicion, that most of this music would benefit immensely if note placement was guided not by ‘feeling’, but by exact knowledge of subdivision this vague feeling is trying to point to. Heart likes to dance and appreciates the exact rhythm - it is what gives a great bassist’s playing a hypnotizing quality.
    This is a point that gets debated. Some say that the closer you are to the click, the better. Others say that being too accurate sucks out the magic.

    My view is that it depends on a couple of things. One is the style of the music. Another is which beat. The big 2 in a Samba in 2/4 sounds great right on the beat. But, the 16ths are played unevenly by the great Sambistas. Similar argument for a ride beat. And, the unevenness of the beats depend on the tempo.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    This is a point that gets debated. Some say that the closer you are to the click, the better. Others say that being too accurate sucks out the magic.

    My view is that it depends on a couple of things. One is the style of the music. Another is which beat. The big 2 in a Samba in 2/4 sounds great right on the beat. But, the 16ths are played unevenly by the great Sambistas. Similar argument for a ride beat. And, the unevenness of the beats depend on the tempo.
    It is well can be true. Then one could assume that a reasonable way to get there would be to aim for a machine like precision and then to relax back a bit into a human condition.

    But, it also could be one or both of these:
    1) It is actually a dynamics thing
    2) 16s are uneven, but regular -- being swung in a particular way which can been notated precisely and trained

    On the first point, there is a study on swinging quarters (not sure the link will work, posting also summary results):

    How Do You Swing a Quarter Note? An Analysis of the Great Walking Bassists of the 1950s and 60s. by Steven Zwanink
    Steven Zwanink - How Do You Swing a Quarter Note? An Analysis of the Great Walking Bassists of the 1950s and 60s. - 2014
    Summary of Results: I have recently discovered in my own playing, that regardless of which drummer with whom I am playing, that my time feel needs to remain strong and unchangeable by what it is they are doing. This allows me to swing immediately and consistently on my own, or with whomever I am playing, provided the drummer is competent. All of this together answers my initial questions of: Do swinging bass lines rely on a temporal tension between bassist and drummer? No. Can the bassist swing his quarter notes all on his own? Yes. To what extent are the timbral properties of an instrument and the attack with which a string is engaged relevant? Extremely. In undertaking this study I have had the opportunity to think critically about a major parameter of jazz bass performance that is highly ephemeral and rarely quantified, though at the end of this project I now realize that that major parameter, while reliant on time, is actually sound and articulation.
    I found it when I started also playing bass guitar and realizing I'm not delivering. After chasing a bit 'behind/before the beat' and other things, this was the article that had immediate positive impact.

    On the second, about the swung 8s, for example.
    Everyone knows, straight 8s are just even, triplet-based dotted eights are too jerky, to swing you need to have something in between. Musicscore sets a ratio by default to 60% - seems to be a good default option. To get this you subdivide quintuplets like 3+2.
    So I've played a bit with a simple pentatonic lick over 3+2 quintuplet patterns, picking and tying notes alternatively. At some point you start internalizing this subdivision and it feels right in the stomach. This is a distinctively different thing than just trying to be more even than in a triplet, there is some elevated crispiness in the former.
    Now the challenge is to play phrases where straight 8s, swung 8s and triplets are mixed in interesting ways, instead of just stream of uneven 8s hoping the 'feel' will sort out everything. The problem is brain has trouble switching between these base subidvisions, they tend to influence neighboring ones of different type displacing notes.
    That seem to be a very long road -- but it sure makes a very noticable difference even in the early stages.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    Like that, set the track on repeat for 50 times.
    Am i right that this was not an improvisation? Try to improvise. Just listen to the track a few times. Play the root notes (not after the chord change, but spot on) a few rounds. Work your way up from that. Jens Larsen has a nice work out on his website where he limits himself to 3 or 4 notes. Maybe that works for you. For example only use: e d c a.
    First 10 seconds was planned (due to multiple attempts). However everything else was improv

  20. #19

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    Place your accents correctly (that is to say - get the upbeats on the ride skip note, and place your down beats accurately on the beat), and everything else can fall where it may...

    Bop has more upbeat accents than swing, which is why modern jazz sounds more relaxed and the players can lag more. But it's an art form. Compare Sonny Clarke's feel to Wynton Kelly's for example.

    Analysing swing feel can be interesting (I can post some intriguing academic papers if you like) but really I think not that useful to the musician. The musicians needs to learn to feel it. In fact over analysing things on a DAW or whatever can squish the life out of it.

    6 months practicing and recording only with a metronome (i.e. not playing with other humans) and then listening to Art Blakey is just hilarious, but so instructive.

    It's important understand the dialectic between the mechanical or mathematical elements of rhythm (syntactic) from the instinctive and intuitive, human aspects (processual). The Time from the Feel, so to speak. Education materials almost always discuss the the former, and while it's great to to work on that, to really play music you need the latter. Playing with great players is what you need for that.

    So in Brazilian music, the patterns are syntactic, but the swing is processual.

    OTOH there a few important points for someone studying this stuff:
    - time has become much more metronomic. Blakey wouldn't play that way today.
    - people expect you to play more 'textbook' time, so the syntactic elements occupy a greater part of our awareness.
    - great rhythm section players can compensate for your mistakes in syntactic time. It doesn't mean that you have it sorted.
    - you can become too much of a 'sitter backer' and ride great time feel. In the end the aim is to MAKE it.

  21. #20

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    BTW Most students who weren't brought up in a rhythmically aware cultural background tend to feel the upbeat weaker than the downbeat, so that's the main area to focus on.

  22. #21
    Here's something that just came up.

    I contracted a top pro Brazilian drummer to play on a Covid style project.

    I sent him bass, rhythm and lead guitars and piano.

    He recorded at home and sent three tracks. Drumset, tamborim (a small high pitched frame drum) and shaker.

    His parts, particularly the tamborim, have an authentic Brazilian feel. On-screen they're so far ahead of the click (in some sections of the tune, not all) it's hard to believe. I'll post it as soon as I get permission from everybody. The magic, apparently, is in the tension between those "ahead-of-the-beat" parts and the rest of us pedestrians. I cannot imagine a way to teach that using charts, or math or words.