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^ hard to beat stanwyck!!! her pre-code stuff!!
one of the greats!! krupa is icing
cheers
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08-02-2020 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
He would write occasionally about his love affair with the Benny Goodman bands of the late 30's. And this was in the mid 70's. He was born in 1916, so he was writing about music he heard live around age 23. Iirc, he would rate the different editions of the band, by year, and talk about which edition was the best. How many bands/leaders do fans talk that way about?
It made quite an impression on him. To hear him tell it, the groove was the deepest he ever heard and the music was the hippest, to his way of thinking.
Not everybody uses the audience response as a measure of "hipness". If they did, Kenny G might get better press in the jazz community. But, my impression is that it was profound at the time and represented a sea change from the music just 10 years before.
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Originally Posted by Marinero
Who can imagine life without bebop and all of the players it later produced? Or the birth of the cool, or the great Miles Davis Quintets, and on and on and on.
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Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
cheers
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Evolution != improvement. Evolution is just change, for better or for worse. That applies to biology, music, and innumerable other things.
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Oh I dunno, people regularly dance on our gigs.....well, danced.
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Music is not exactly the same, of course, because humans have memory, an instinct to preserve that which is endangered, and a desire to change without loss. Still, evolution is neither good nor bad, it just is.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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I think Benny was probably quite hip at the time. Maybe a bit old-fashioned for that now.
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I don't think Benny was ever hip. Hipper than Glenn Miller perhaps. (no diss intended.)
But - he did serve an incredibly important function culturally, which was running one of the first integrated bands and presenting black talent - such as Charlie (and Teddy, Lionel and so on) - to a white audience.
There is a general feeling in the histories (I don't know how accurate they are, but this seems to be the vibe) that the music of Minton's playhouse was away from that commercial setting a chance for those musicians to really play... So that was the real hip thing and became bop a few years down the line... But I still find the Benny small band sides to be fresh sounding and compelling. I think you have to give Benny some credit for that.
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Which is funny because I've spent a lot of time around dancers who think bebop was the apocalypse. They were all hanging out with Norma Miller...
Dance roots were present in jazz even as the music moved towards being more a club thing. I think there was some dancing in the black clubs maybe with organ bands (have to ask Dave Stryker or someone?), Coltrane played R'n'B, Wayne played dances with Miles.
They all played dance gigs. That's why they could swing. The feel is still there. Listen to this tempo:
That's a dance tempo.
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I grew up taking this kind of "corn' for granted and waiting for something I liked to come 'round on the AM radio.
I can appreciate it a little more now, especially in the context of Scorcese's masterful use.
Percy Faith outfit, 'Delicado.'
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now this is hip dance music
the great slim n slam start things off
cheers
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ps- notice that the great slim gaillard starts with piano...he plays opening chords with his hands upside down!!! (that was a gimmick of his!!) then he picks up guitar!!! and sings!!..slam stewart played with tatum trio..prob one of the greatest bands ever...his specialty was playin arco and vocalizing an octave above..a master...(he's in that classic charlie christian-teddy bunn 1939 gibson promo shot!)
anyway i love that hellzapoppin clip!
cheers
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Hi, C,Sixty-three years as a musician, Big Band leader, Swing Jazz innovator and mentor to generations of musicians and his "incredibly important function" was integrated bands? He was a major mover and shaker in promoting Jazz music to the world, as it was generally played during his era, and provided a solid, creative platform where many musicians "cut their teeth" before they moved on to their own successful careers. Music and musicians should be judged aesthetically, pure and simply . . . not for their Sociological ramifications to future generations . . .the tawdry and tainted meat and potatoes of the University crowd. Play live! . . . Marinero
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Originally Posted by Marinero
I have a lot of respect for the dude. I’m sorry if you feel offended by some of the important things he did.
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Plus my favourite Benny stuff is definitely the small band stuff. It is his most original stuff I think... (and his later small bands were great too, but obviously not quite as hip for the time.)
The other stuff is great, but I tend to turn to Fletcher, Chick Webb, Lunceford and early Basie for classic pre war orchestra stuff... Benny obviously took a lot from those musicians; but of course he was more famous and you got to credit him with some of the most iconic moments in big band music. And always badass playing.Last edited by christianm77; 08-04-2020 at 12:40 PM.
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Also, there’s this:
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Coltrane as a kid played RnB. A man grows up and puts away childish things. Coltrane advanced the music forward and we’re all the better for it.
The period between’55 and’68, when Wes died was nothing less than remarkable in moving the music forward.
Who could foresee fusion? Not your taste? Mine either, but fact is the music moved on in the 80’s to so many young lions who put their imprint on the music.
Where are we today? Who knows, I’m still stuck in that soundtrack between 1950-1968. There’s enough there to spend a lifetime and still not discover it all.
Apocalyptic? What no Dexter Gordon love? I’d say your loss.
You want to spend your time dancing to Benny Goodman? No problem, no one is stopping you.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
"Art for Art's Sake" . . . everything else is chaff. Play live! . . . Marinero
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Coltrane as a kid played RnB. A man grows up and puts away childish things. Coltrane advanced the music forward and we’re all the better for it.
It doesn’t have to be swing or R&B; it could be Funk, Salsa or West African pop. But the music needs that rhythmic intensity, and the dancers demand that rhythmic intensity from musicians. Barry was talking about swing music and bebop (which Barry maintains was in fact danced to) but you can expand the basic point.
Every jazz musician has done this pretty much. Just listen to the Brecker brothers for instance. You don’t learn to play like that doing background or polite club gigs.
But it’s also a reason why the music moved to straight 8’s a bit as well; the dance roots of jazz changed. Which of course takes us into fusion.
For my taste it is the dance roots of jazz that stop it from turning into mere prog rock (but without the pop hooks of a Yes, for instance.)
The period between’55 and’68, when Wes died was nothing less than remarkable in moving the music forward.
Who could foresee fusion? Not your taste? Mine either, but fact is the music moved on in the 80’s to so many young lions who put their imprint on the music.
Where are we today? Who knows, I’m still stuck in that soundtrack between 1950-1968. There’s enough there to spend a lifetime and still not discover it all.
Apocalyptic? What no Dexter Gordon love? I’d say your loss.
swing dancers are their own subculture which is a bit hipster and so on. They also buy a lot of narratives from people like Norma Miller who was on the scene until she died last year and hated bop.
I love Dexter with all my heart and think he swings like a barn door, but few dancers dance to that stuff. (And needless to say Barry is on some of those classic cuts.) There’s reasons other than tempo and groove. The cuts tend to be too long for social dancing for instance.
i have played some Nat Adderly stuff on dance gigs.
You want to spend your time dancing to Benny Goodman? No problem, no one is stopping you.
Bloody hell everyone seems up for an argument today.Last edited by christianm77; 08-04-2020 at 01:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by Marinero
Reality is usually more complex.
My own understanding of Aesthetics vs Social aspects is constantly in flux. With Benny I think the two things actually worked together. You don’t actually have to choose....
(in fact Benny had to set a social precedent in order to get the musicians he wanted... which could be an example of the quest for beauty driving social change? Put that in your pipe and smoke it Regelski...)Last edited by christianm77; 08-04-2020 at 01:29 PM.
RIP Nick Gravenites
Today, 05:48 PM in The Players