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  1. #1

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    I’m not a Black Sabbath fan but Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple (not necessarily in that order) are dear to me.

    My complaint is with the galloping beat in Crazy Train which has a fine intro. I hear this inevitably tuning into sports events playing music for empty stadiums though Crazy Train was popular when people gathered at arenas and stadiums.


    After the stop time and the riff; in comes the horsey rhythm. The lyrics start, it's corny, I can think of no other way to describe it.


    On the other hand Achilles Last Stand has a comparable gallop rhythm which kicks ass and astonishes me much the way LZ affected when I was thirteen. I can’t get what Bonham is doing. I don’t need to know but that’s partially what draws me to music; ie: the 'what the?'


    There is corny Zeppelin and Deep Purple; Beatles, Al Hirt. I suppose there is corny Charlie Parker and even Monk must have played on bad sessions though I can think of none.


    Am I sure I activate the ‘cornball eradication’ function when I play?

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  3. #2

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    I love corn. The Jersey Silver Queen is just starting to hit the shelves.
    Oh....

  4. #3

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    Worrying about it only makes one self-conscious. If there's corn, let it be.

    When it's all corn is the time to start worrying...

  5. #4

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    Corn is the jazz musician's curse. You start worrying about it and your playing can become either very parochial and tentative, or rote scales and patterns as you try to chase the corn heebie geebies away.

    Re: Zep, I am just old enough that I thought Led Zeppelin was the kid's version of the Jeff Beck Group. Later, I thought Ozzy was the kid version of Zep. And so it goes.

    I guess my band is aiming to be the kid version of the OP Trio.

  6. #5

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    unfortunately corn or cheese is often the result of the record producer or label moreso than the artist...my fave example is charlie parker...who was into contemporary classical music...bartok, stravinsky, varese...wanted to do serious tracks of his alto with strings...so who did his record label hook him up with?...mr. zippiddeedooda -mitch miller...some of birds most painful recordings!!...same thing happened to wes with creed taylor...so many of the jazz guys...wound up doing schmaltz, bad pop tunes or disco that the record label pushed...the records are still out there

    sad

    keep your integrity folks...money comes and goes...but your good name is all you really own

    cheers

  7. #6

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    Corn has a legitimate purpose when its role is to set up contrast for something wonderful, like Kenny Burrell - plays a simple predictable line, does it few more times kind of corny but OK, then plays something that makes your heart hurt... analogous to dynamics, but of "deep jazziness".

  8. #7

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    Sabbath rules, LZ is a bunch of thieves and wankers.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Sabbath rules, LZ is a bunch of thieves and wankers.


    I knew could start a fight eventually.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    I knew could start a fight eventually.
    I'm not sure I really feel that way, I just like starting shit.

    And I love Sabbath, and don't really care for Zep, save for Houses/Graffiti.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Sabbath rules, LZ is a bunch of thieves and wankers.
    Correction: Expert, very talented thieves and wankers

  12. #11

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    1. I suppose some thing were always corn and others became corn because of changing tastes. But which is which is a matter of history or taste. Did critics react badly to the Parker with strings thing? Was it always seen as exploitation, or was it once regarded as innovative music? Montgomery’s A Day in the Life sounds like lobby music to me, and an attempt to remain profitable. Others might think it as a serious attempt to broaden the repertoire.

    2. I think what Bonham was doing was playing to the guitar, rather than with the bass.

    3. It is curious that the British term, ‘wanker’, has become part of the American vernacular.

  13. #12

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    Do we expect every sentence of a to be deep poetry or is it sufficient if a point is made by the text as a whole?

    should every word from a poet’s mouth be High Art, or will “would you pass the bread, please” be contextually acceptable?

    should every musical performance seek to push boundaries, or is it ok to simply reafirm conventions.


    As for Parker With Strings: i dont know if it’s corny or exploitative, but I unapologetically love that take on Just Friends

  14. #13

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    The arrangements are as Hollywood af but there’s something magical about hearing Bird improvise on the melody in that way.

  15. #14

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    Dunno about avoiding Corn but I would advocate avoiding Korn

  16. #15

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    Irving Berlin is credited with a line about corny things that I like: "There's an element of truth in every idea that last long enough to be called corny."

    On a different subject, he said (or is said to have said) these two things: "Talent is only the starting point."
    "Life is 10 percent what you make it, and 90 percent how you take it." (The older I get, the more accurate that sounds!)

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Average Joe
    Do we expect every sentence of a to be deep poetry or is it sufficient if a point is made by the text as a whole?

    should every word from a poet’s mouth be High Art, or will “would you pass the bread, please” be contextually acceptable?

    should every musical performance seek to push boundaries, or is it ok to simply reafirm conventions.


    As for Parker With Strings: i dont know if it’s corny or exploitative, but I unapologetically love that take on Just Friends

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Sabbath rules, LZ is a bunch of thieves and wankers.
    Gosh, Jeffery, I didn't know that was an American word too. Live and learn :-)

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    ...
    "Life is 10 percent what you make it, and 90 percent how you take it." ...
    Wow, that's atomic! Best quote I've read all year, thanks.

  20. #19

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    First of all, Crazy Train is not a Black Sabbath tune, it's Ozzy Osbourne. His early solo records sounded nothing like Sabbath, mostly because Randy Rhoads or Jake E Lee played nothing like Tony Iommy. Not better or worse, just completely different.

    Secondly, it does not sound like galloping rhythm to me. At least not like Iron Maiden songs, which are the kings of gallop to me.

    Btw, I used to be crazy about Sabbath, and then I 'upgraded' to Zep, but over time the appeal of Zep has evaporated for me, but the Sabbath still stands strong.

    And honestly, it's not the first time I hear people saying about Crazy Train as a brilliant intro, but corny afterwards. I can see that, but I like it anyway. It rocks!

  21. #20

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  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    First of all, Crazy Train is not a Black Sabbath tune, it's Ozzy Osbourne. His early solo records sounded nothing like Sabbath, mostly because Randy Rhoads or Jake E Lee played nothing like Tony Iommy. Not better or worse, just completely different.

    Secondly, it does not sound like galloping rhythm to me. At least not like Iron Maiden songs, which are the kings of gallop to me.

    Btw, I used to be crazy about Sabbath, and then I 'upgraded' to Zep, but over time the appeal of Zep has evaporated for me, but the Sabbath still stands strong.

    And honestly, it's not the first time I hear people saying about Crazy Train as a brilliant intro, but corny afterwards. I can see that, but I like it anyway. It rocks!

    Thanks for the clarification.

    Perhaps I owe Jeff an apology.

  23. #22

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    Check out the pre Zep Jeff Beck Group stuff with Rod Stewart. I think it's not corny and holds up better than LZ or Ozzy.

  24. #23

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    Sabbath and Zep and Beck aren't as good as James Gang with Joe Walsh.


  25. #24

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    I don't really know how to define "corn"--I guess I know it when I hear it.

    Back in the 60's corn was Lawrence Welk, the Osmonds, the Brady Bunch SINGING (yes they had a variety show), Hee Haw, Sonny and Cher show.

    Maybe Charlie or Wes with strings was sorta corny, but there was still the smoldering embers of genius under it all.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Sabbath and Zep and Beck aren't as good as James Gang with Joe Walsh.

    Yeah, but they were too big to play my high school...James Gang did, arguably very well.

  27. #26

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    Corn was playing swing solos, or like Louis Armstrong during the bebop era.

  28. #27

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    I just got inspired to go put on some Eddie Condon.

    In some circles, t'was "Mouldy" Corn......"Fig" style!

  29. #28

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    Unfortunately for me, I find most Jazz post 1960 to be pretty corny.

    I feel the recording technology and guitar technology had a negative effect on the aural esthetic I prefer. But that really just adds to not being inspired by how Jazz evolved.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Sabbath and Zep and Beck aren't as good as James Gang with Joe Walsh.

    Yes, you showed the red cape and I came charging. But peacefully, laughing all the way at your silly claim!

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    Check out the pre Zep Jeff Beck Group stuff with Rod Stewart. I think it's not corny and holds up better than LZ or Ozzy.
    Valid point, in my opinion. But the Jeff Beck Group with Rod Stewart was short lived. And not better than Led Zeppelin's first four albums, "corn" and all. Maybe theft would be a better word for the earlier ones than "corn." If it was corn (it wasn't), it was the best corn ever.

  32. #31

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    Corn to me is when a tune is translated into timing and phrasing characteristic of Muzak - awkward, stilted, artificially formal, not flowing... made even worse if you know how it is supposed to sound. This translation may be an instance in the head of the performer (on purpose for brief effect), or systemic from the tune having been formally transcribed and "crow bar'd" into standard notation so suppressing the "swing" out of it by the transcriber holding a threshold on the resolution of rhythm symbology in order to limit the complexity of dots, ties, and tails in the score.

    Amazingly, classical musicians playing classical music raise life from the paper, partly because their fundamental sense of rhythm is quite different.

  33. #32

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    This is corn:


  34. #33

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    This is a corny tune too...


  35. #34

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    Parker with Strings... I can get why people would see it as being corny, but that's easily one of my favourite albums of all time... It mightn't be what Parker had in mind when recording with a string section, but it's magical nonetheless.

    I never knew Mitch Miller was the oboe player on those sessions... hard to imagine putting the two in the same sentence let alone recording in the same room! Next we find out Mrs Mills was on piano hahaha!

    It's Parker at his most polished, that's not necessarily a bad thing. The recording quality of those sessions was good enough to actually get a sense of his tone. A lot of those early bebop records aren't exactly Hi-Fi.

    Mind you... I don't mind corn - I love listening to Glenn Miller - in fact his reed section harmonies are a big influence on the way I like to arrange my chord melody pieces on guitar. There's a place for everything, but I can never get enough of Parker with Strings :-).