The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    I was a performer, not a musician. My last gig was 1999. I gave up on the business aspect around 2015.
    What's your dealio?

    Hi, S,
    Started in Soul/R@B groups(paid gigs) at age 12-20(guitar/sax) working exclusively in the Chicago area as a weekend warrior in bars/strip clubs. Then, 20-26, led several Jazz/Rock big bands full-time and played(sax/flute) locally and on the road--union bands with agent bookings. Also, did studio work writing horn parts and playing sax/flute. Bailed from full-time music late in 1976 and moved to Miami after Disco killed the good paying jobs for big bands and booking became fewer and fewer and the pay scale dropped significantly unless you were a "nationally recognized" group. I got out of music as a "vocation" but "sat in" with local Jazz/Bossa groups in Miami regularly on sax. No playing/performing from 1985-1991. In 1992, I began the study of Classical Guitar and studied with two international performing artists who graciously accepted me as a student because of my former experience and resume in music. Then, started performing on solo guitar from '95 to '17(bistros,clubs,weddings) as a weekend warrior as I ran a full-time business(38 years) in the real world. Retired in 2017 and now play "full-time" again with a mixed bag of Classical/Jazz/Bossa depending on the gig--usually upscale bistros/restaurants as I continue my personal development. That's my dealio! Good playing . . . Marinero

    P.S. I studied formally at the Chicago Musical College/Roosevelt University, Wright College and Harold Washington College(formerly Loop College) with studies in theory, orchestration, arranging and composing and advanced practical studies on saxophone/flute as well as with Chicago Jazz pianist Willie Pickens for improvisation and interpretation. Here's Willie on the great Jazz standard "Someday My Prince Will Come." Rest in Peace, brother!

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  3. #202

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    Sometimes bebop licks just don't fit with the music. Here's my take on this classic with some tasty guitar.
    Good playing . . . Marinero



  4. #203

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    Very nice mood music. I really love Pat Martino version from the Visit Album. He manages to play some beautiful Bebop Jazz lines through this song!


  5. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, S,
    Started in Soul/R@B groups(paid gigs) at age 12-20(guitar/sax) working exclusively in the Chicago area as a weekend warrior in bars/strip clubs. Then, 20-26, led several Jazz/Rock big bands full-time and played(sax/flute) locally and on the road--union bands with agent bookings. Also, did studio work writing horn parts and playing sax/flute. Bailed from full-time music late in 1976 and moved to Miami after Disco killed the good paying jobs for big bands and booking became fewer and fewer and the pay scale dropped significantly unless you were a "nationally recognized" group. I got out of music as a "vocation" but "sat in" with local Jazz/Bossa groups in Miami regularly on sax. No playing/performing from 1985-1991. In 1992, I began the study of Classical Guitar and studied with two international performing artists who graciously accepted me as a student because of my former experience and resume in music. Then, started performing on solo guitar from '95 to '17(bistros,clubs,weddings) as a weekend warrior as I ran a full-time business(38 years) in the real world. Retired in 2017 and now play "full-time" again with a mixed bag of Classical/Jazz/Bossa depending on the gig--usually upscale bistros/restaurants as I continue my personal development. That's my dealio! Good playing . . . Marinero

    P.S. I studied formally at the Chicago Musical College/Roosevelt University, Wright College and Harold Washington College(formerly Loop College) with studies in theory, orchestration, arranging and composing and advanced practical studies on saxophone/flute as well as with Chicago Jazz pianist Willie Pickens for improvisation and interpretation. Here's Willie on the great Jazz standard "Someday My Prince Will Come." Rest in Peace, brother!
    I was raised by classical musicians. They said, be a musician, go run with gangsters and don't ask us for money....
    Ah, OK. I thought, this is going to be interesting.
    I told the navy, send me to Alaska. They sent me to California. I got kicked out after almost 3 years of active duty, then got back in, only to go awol (UA) from monthly meetings. While driving a cab I heard about rock and R&B gigs overseas. Then I heard you could make a million dollars in less than 10 years. That would be about 2.3 million today. I thought 'rock' meant hair bands but that wasn't true.
    I went for R&B and climbed the ladder for about 4 years.
    Then I took the Death Ride to Osaka around 86'. I wanted to step in front of a bus and end it all after a few months, just like in the movie. Then I met a Japanese girl at the club. She said- sleep. I slept.
    I stuck it out for the full 6 months.
    Crash and burn. That was the end of me in music. I knew too many dirty secrets and I was exhausted. I stayed with a 'friend with benefits' for a little while in California then went back to Buffalo to be a janitor.
    After that I tried different bands but nothing serious. I worked full time. I practiced constantly like back in the 70's. I'm 'chop challenged'. I can't play classical music and solo jazz wears me out fast.
    What am I good for? Not much I suppose. I don't want to work with people who have bad meter. I'm a robot when it comes to that..
    1, 2, fuck you!
    Just count it off.
    That's why I like grooveboxes. A lot of musicians have problems with meter but younger musicians have better meter than boomers did.
    That's about it. My 'career' in music. Grand total- maybe 10-12 grand.
    Whoopee.
    Last edited by Stevebol; 06-16-2020 at 02:29 AM.

  6. #205

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    Hi, Stevebol,
    You may still make a million bucks! You have a great story for a novel. Get out the old Smith-Corona typewriter and get busy . . . oh, ya, I mean computer. Well, I guess we all have to change sometimes. Good playing . . . Marinero

  7. #206

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    Musician/performer? Here's Andrea Motis playing some trumpet with friends. Good playing . . . Marinero



  8. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, Stevebol,
    You may still make a million bucks! You have a great story for a novel. Get out the old Smith-Corona typewriter and get busy . . . oh, ya, I mean computer. Well, I guess we all have to change sometimes. Good playing . . . Marinero
    I only share stories with people here.
    I have a little project going with another guitar player doing electronic music with no computers. It's an experiment in reconstruction. We're old farts. Took forever to decide on gear.
    'Publish or perish' isn't my thing.
    I miss the ocean. I need to get a heavier car and visit more often. I don't miss this other stuff. I visited a couple years ago and it was trip seeing how much California has changed. The 7th fleet gone from National City. Almost all the bars gone. Thousands of young people on the streets in downtown Diego. Might be a spring break destination now.
    California isn't easy to adapt to. I couldn't do it in 8 years. I should have stuck around a while longer. One thing about Vegas and I guessed right- you can adapt quickly. California is complicated.

  9. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Tom Quayle is a fine player! But he probably hasn't had the chance to actually play with other bands and different musical situations for years on end in a live setting or studio setting. And again this is because of the dynamics of the business.

    He's also one the few who has superior skill set as far as technique and harmonic vocabulary as well. When playing solo, or with backing tracks you predetermine your own performance. As opposed to react to unknown improvisation of the other musicians. And again Tom Quayle is one of the few I speak of when saying great inate talent and great time feel.

    He eats ,lives and breathes music, and is not an amateur hobbyist!
    Plenty of us amateurs work with improvisational approaches. Indeed, I was more often asked to play something note-for-note precisely when a paying audience determined the paycheck, and was freer to improvise with others when there was no money on the line at all.

  10. #209

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    Wonderful Jazz approach copying note for note! YUK!!!!!

    It certainly ceases to be Jazz when the Spirit or Soul of the music is so controlled! How absolutely boring and non interesting,no matter what piece of music.

    This is what I absolutely what I hate, how music has become so controlled and prescribed by someone. Even Prince was a Control Freak in this vein. Where as
    Jimi Hendrix understood improvisation and let his music Breathe.

    You can feel when music breathes and flows, and nowadays with all of the technical control available to the individual. It absolutely stifles creativity of the music. All under the illusion of saying it allows freedom! What an oxymoron !

  11. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Wonderful Jazz approach copying note for note! YUK!!!!!

    It certainly ceases to be Jazz when the Spirit or Soul of the music is so controlled! How absolutely boring and non interesting,no matter what piece of music.

    This is what I absolutely what I hate, how music has become so controlled and prescribed by someone. Even Prince was a Control Freak in this vein. Where as
    Jimi Hendrix understood improvisation and let his music Breathe.

    You can feel when music breathes and flows, and nowadays with all of the technical control available to the individual. It absolutely stifles creativity of the music. All under the illusion of saying it allows freedom! What an oxymoron !
    I didn't say I was playing jazz. For the record, I wasn't. I was playing classic-rock covers for $50/night.

    The improv stuff happened when I started organizing little barbecues with other local players -- bring your wife and kids and your own beer. Four or five guitarists of varying skills but nothing prearranged at all. It was fun, and a great learning experience for me.

    Point is that amateurs can and do improvise as well. Not monetizing it doesn't mean it isn't, well, musicized.

    ETA: Where does that leave classical musicians? They play charts, but their playing is orchestrated by the conductor; their job is to play the part as perfectly as possible. Thye don't improvise, but they do read music. Are they musicians in your mind, or are they not? Why or why not?

    Not trying to argue here, I just want to understand this seeming mismatch.

  12. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    I didn't say I was playing jazz. For the record, I wasn't. I was playing classic-rock covers for $50/night.

    The improv stuff happened when I started organizing little barbecues with other local players -- bring your wife and kids and your own beer. Four or five guitarists of varying skills but nothing prearranged at all. It was fun, and a great learning experience for me.

    Point is that amateurs can and do improvise as well. Not monetizing it doesn't mean it isn't, well, musicized.

    ETA: Where does that leave classical musicians? They play charts, but their playing is orchestrated by the conductor; their job is to play the part as perfectly as possible. Thye don't improvise, but they do read music. Are they musicians in your mind, or are they not? Why or why not?

    Not trying to argue here, I just want to understand this seeming mismatch.
    Not quite on topic but a welcome diversion in this thread.

    I assume you are picturing an orchestra with a conductor. There are other types of performance settings in the classical world, the most obvious being solo guitar. But also in string quartets and duets.
    I should also point out that there is improvising in certain areas of classically music the most obvious being at the end of a Concerto, the accompanists stop and the soloists get to flex their muscles in the Cadenza.
    Often their is a written solo that the performer can choose to play, but that is a more recent concept/inclusion in modern printings.
    Satchmo turn this on it's head by playing a Cadenza at the beginning of West end blues. At the beginning!!!
    A similar thing used to occur in opera.
    I'm sure you have heard the term encore. You of course know it is French for again. Meaning sing the song you just sang, AGAIN! Not please perform two more different songs at the end of the set.
    Anyway, if an encore was requested by the audience they would sing the same Aria again. But if course the singers wood embellish and improvise the second time, because really who wants to hear the same thing twice... Ugh boring.
    This phenomenon became so common that composers started Incorporating it into the compositions, thus the da Capo Aria was born. Da Capo (from "dc al fine fame") of course means from the top.

    There is also even more improvising in baroque and earlier eras of classical music, before the composer's notes became revered as a gospel. The most obvious is in the use of figured bass in keyboard music. This is where the composer writes or a bass line and uses symbols to tell the player was the chords are. Then the player makes up their own appropriate right hand comping, very similar to jazz.
    https://static.newworldencyclopedia....gured_bass.png example of figured bass. The smaller notes showing what notes are implied by the numbers.

    How about some more contemporary classical improv? One of my favorites is when composers used graphic notation. This is very useful if you are but a lowly "performer" I have always found Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, to be one of the most moving pieces ever composed. Follow along with the score!

    All of the pitches are chosen by the players.

    Not strictly improvised but in 20th century classical there are newer notes used employed that refer to indiscriminate pitches. On the stem of the note there is a small x (similar to a grace note). This means more given not is approximate. Shoenberg famously used it in Pierrot Lunaire and he termed is singspreche
    http://www.sheetmusicfox.com/images/121911.png see the first line of the vocal.


    I love music history!!!!

    Tldr: there is improvisation in classical music

  13. #212

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    But for all those classical performers who improvise, my question is about those who don't, because I don't think anyone here would say orchestral musicians aren't actually musicians. I believe this is a contradiction in Jads's view.

  14. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark

    ...

    I should also point out that there is improvising in certain areas of classically music the most obvious being at the end of a Concerto, the accompanists stop and the soloists get to flex their muscles in the Cadenza.
    Often their is a written solo that the performer can choose to play, but that is a more recent concept/inclusion in modern printings.
    Satchmo turn this on it's head by playing a Cadenza at the beginning of West end blues. At the beginning!!!
    A similar thing used to occur in opera.
    I'm sure you have heard the term encore. You of course know it is French for again. Meaning sing the song you just sang, AGAIN! Not please perform two more different songs at the end of the set.
    Anyway, if an encore was requested by the audience they would sing the same Aria again. But if course the singers wood embellish and improvise the second time, because really who wants to hear the same thing twice... Ugh boring.
    This phenomenon became so common that composers started Incorporating it into the compositions, thus the da Capo Aria was born. Da Capo (from "dc al fine fame") of course means from the top.

    There is also even more improvising in baroque and earlier eras of classical music, before the composer's notes became revered as a gospel. The most obvious is in the use of figured bass in keyboard music. This is where the composer writes or a bass line and uses symbols to tell the player was the chords are. Then the player makes up their own appropriate right hand comping, very similar to jazz.
    https://static.newworldencyclopedia....gured_bass.png example of figured bass. The smaller notes showing what notes are implied by the numbers.

    How about some more contemporary classical improv? One of my favorites is when composers used graphic notation. This is very useful if you are but a lowly "performer" I have always found Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, to be one of the most moving pieces ever composed. Follow along with the score!

    All of the pitches are chosen by the players.

    Not strictly improvised but in 20th century classical there are newer notes used employed that refer to indiscriminate pitches. On the stem of the note there is a small x (similar to a grace note). This means more given not is approximate. Shoenberg famously used it in Pierrot Lunaire and he termed is singspreche
    http://www.sheetmusicfox.com/images/121911.png see the first line of the vocal.


    I love music history!!!!

    Tldr: there is improvisation in classical music
    Lots of cool and opened minded posts in this forum, and the above is one of them.


    It's never my intention to horribly stereotype anyone for any reason, however, I'm not sure that someone who offers Penderecki and Schoenberg as examples is going to enjoy Brahms (despite Schoenberg's kind words) but I've heard the Joachim cadenza performed by Janine Jansen under a number of conductors, and regardless of it being the result of study or the weather or just how she feels right there and then, there's always something that's different or perhaps simply shifted a little. Sure, she has tickets to sell and all that, but I'm still buying into it 100%.
    In any case, for anyone inclined, in this video the cadenza starts at about 18:45 -


    Also, I agree about the Armstrong/West End Blues/cadenza - and I can barely imagine what that must have sounded like to listeners at the time.

  15. #214

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    Thumpalumpacus fun playing Dress up Musician? I'm content with being a Crabby old musician. Thank God for the internet and forums like this where we can vent all of our life's frustrations to our hearts content!

  16. #215

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    "ETA: Where does that leave classical musicians? They play charts, but their playing is orchestrated by the conductor; their job is to play the part as perfectly as possible. Thye don't improvise, but they do read music. Are they musicians in your mind, or are they not? Why or why not?" Thumpalumpacus

    Hi, T,
    I'm glad you brought this subject to the discussion. The difference between a Classical musician and a Jazz musician is that traditional Classical musicians don't improvise. O.K, we can talk about the Baroque period/Bach where it was done frequently but it isn't really done anymore to my knowledge to any great degree in Classical performance. However, what a great Classical musician does is to take those black dots on the page and breathe life into them with musical nuance where they are not just a representation of sound but rather . . . an emotive experience. And, it is this skill that most closely approximates Jazz . . . not improvisation, but rather the feel. We see it in the piano works of Rubenstein, Kempff, Horowitz, and in the Classical guitarists Steidl, Gallen, Fernandez. Here's one of my favorites, Roland Dyens, a true hybrid guitarist.
    Good playing . . . Marinero


    ?

  17. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "ETA: Where does that leave classical musicians? They play charts, but their playing is orchestrated by the conductor; their job is to play the part as perfectly as possible. Thye don't improvise, but they do read music. Are they musicians in your mind, or are they not? Why or why not?" Thumpalumpacus

    Hi, T,
    I'm glad you brought this subject to the discussion. The difference between a Classical musician and a Jazz musician is that traditional Classical musicians don't improvise. O.K, we can talk about the Baroque period/Bach where it was done frequently but it isn't really done anymore to my knowledge to any great degree in Classical performance. However, what a great Classical musician does is to take those black dots on the page and breathe life into them with musical nuance where they are not just a representation of sound but rather . . . an emotive experience. And, it is this skill that most closely approximates Jazz . . . not improvisation, but rather the feel. We see it in the piano works of Rubenstein, Kempff, Horowitz, and in the Classical guitarists Steidl, Gallen, Fernandez. Here's one of my favorites, Roland Dyens, a true hybrid guitarist.
    Good playing . . . Marinero


    ?
    This is time capsule stuff;


  18. #217

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    "ETA: Where does that leave classical musicians? They play charts, but their playing is orchestrated by the conductor; their job is to play the part as perfectly as possible. Thye don't improvise, but they do read music. Are they musicians in your mind, or are they not? Why or why not?" Thumpalumpacus

    Hi, T,
    I'm glad you brought this subject to the discussion. The difference between a Classical musician and a Jazz musician is that traditional Classical musicians don't improvise. O.K, we can talk about the Baroque period/Bach where it was done frequently but it isn't really done anymore to my knowledge to any great degree in Classical performance. However, what a great Classical musician does is to take those black dots on the page and breathe life into them with musical nuance where they are not just a representation of sound but rather . . . an emotive experience. And, it is this skill that most closely approximates Jazz . . . not improvisation, but rather the feel. We see it in the piano works of Rubenstein, Kempff, Horowitz, and in the Classical guitarists Steidl, Gallen, Fernandez. Here's one of my favorites, Roland Dyens, a true hybrid guitarist.
    Good playing . . . Marinero


    ?

  19. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Thumpalumpacus fun playing Dress up Musician? I'm content with being a Crabby old musician. Thank God for the internet and forums like this where we can vent all of our life's frustrations to our hearts content!
    So you agree that orchestral musicians are musicians even though they don't improvise? Am I reading you right?

    I definitely agree that for me, improvisation is the soul of music. But I don't expect other musicians to romance the Muse the same way that I do. I am enjoying the discussion and have no heartburn about it, just so we're clear. Though I disagree with most of your stated views, it's still something good to chew on, so thanks for posting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    ETA: Where does that leave classical musicians? They play charts, but their playing is orchestrated by the conductor; their job is to play the part as perfectly as possible. Thye don't improvise, but they do read music. Are they musicians in your mind, or are they not? Why or why not?" Thumpalumpacus

    Hi, T,
    I'm glad you brought this subject to the discussion. The difference between a Classical musician and a Jazz musician is that traditional Classical musicians don't improvise. O.K, we can talk about the Baroque period/Bach where it was done frequently but it isn't really done anymore to my knowledge to any great degree in Classical performance. However, what a great Classical musician does is to take those black dots on the page and breathe life into them with musical nuance where they are not just a representation of sound but rather . . . an emotive experience. And, it is this skill that most closely approximates Jazz . . . not improvisation, but rather the feel. We see it in the piano works of Rubenstein, Kempff, Horowitz, and in the Classical guitarists Steidl, Gallen, Fernandez. Here's one of my favorites, Roland Dyens, a true hybrid guitarist.
    Good playing . . . Marinero


    ?
    My question, though, is that Jads57 has stated that not improvising in performance is the sign of a non-musician, and I'm trying to wrap my head around that, because it seems to me like they're some damned fine musicians, even if I'm not a huge fan of orchestral music. I still acknowledge their talent and skills, used albeit in a form different than how I use my musical knowledge and skill.

    I'm just curious why he'd derogate them as musicians.

  20. #219

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    My mistake or misunderstanding. I never meant to imply classical reading musicians were not qualified professionals. In fact they are the original pro musicians. It's only later that other styles in modern music required a differe t skill set, like improvisational solo skills.

    No bad feelings here either Thumpalumpacus

    I just hate that technology has reached a point towhere it replaces actual musical knowledge and musicians. And the main reason being lack of funding and low bar of music itself.
    Do t get me wrong I love Chuck Berry, Louis Jordan, The Beatles, Isleys and the rest as well. But it does not mean Oscar Peterson and the great Jazz musicians should not be included,admired or learned from!