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  1. #1

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    O.K. One of my pet peeves--how does one consider themselves a musician if they can't read music? I occasionally surf Youtube for songs/players/ideas and occasionally take a look at some of the guitar "lesson" sites. Some guy has a 45 minute video showing each chord/note for a song that could be played in less than a minute with the SHEET MUSIC. Who could possibly sit through this madness? How long does it take to gain proficiency this way? There is a difference between a musician and a performer. A musician reads music. A performer does not. Period. Good playing . . . Marinero

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    O.K. One of my pet peeves--how does one consider themselves a musician if they can't read music?
    You mean like Wes Montgomery?

  4. #3

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    Being a musician has nothing to with reading or not reading. It has to do with making sounds. Plenty people can read music who are not musicians, and plenty are musicians who cannot read. Being able to do so will probably get you more work in some areas of music, though.
    Last edited by Rob MacKillop; 06-10-2020 at 02:19 PM.

  5. #4

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    Both music and poetry predate any sort of writing/recording on a medium. As Rob says, more sophistication (for better or worse) and marketability of your skills (mostly for better) comes with the ability to read and write music.

  6. #5

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  7. #6

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    Again with this stuff? We all just recently endured a long thread best summarized:

    "I spent all this time learning to read music and now I'm furious that people who didn't are succeeding musically!".

    How does one consider themselves a musician if they can't read music*?

    I imagine it's easy if everyone that knows you, the venues, the bands, the people you play with, and the audiences you play for all consider you to be a musician.

    *Disclosure statement: I've read music for over 50 years on three instruments, but I have never used sheet music, tab, charts, or books for guitar.

  8. #7

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    Chet Baker, Roland Kirk, Django, Errol Garner and the aforementioned Wes all disagree w/you

  9. #8

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    Hi, W,
    Not true of Chet. Played in H.S. Band and in the U.S. 298th Army Band. Good playing . . . Marinero

  10. #9

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    It depends on the musician. A phenomenal musician can wear "not knowing how to read music" as a badge of honor. The less they now about the notes on their instrument, the better. For the more mortal musicians, it doesn't have the same effect

    Like Steve Jobs can wear sneakers on the stage and look cool. If the presenter from the public relations department gets on the stage with sneakers, he is just a dork.

  11. #10

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    I'll take someone who knows two hundred tunes over someone who can sight-read at a performance level.

  12. #11

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    Good playing, yes, Good reading?, not so much.

  13. #12

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    O.K.,
    So, lets distinguish between a performer and musician. The above mentioned players: Wes, Django, etc., were great, talented performers and,I believe, prodigies. And, that's how they should be described. However, here's the distinction I see and I would like honest feedback from those who disagree since I think there is a point herein. Beginning in Europe, there was a tradition of "trades": glassblower, mason, machinist, etc. In order to become a "master," one had to traverse levels of competency before moving on to the next level. After many years, an apprentice would become a "master" in which he could pass his well-earned skills to other potential candidates. This tradition carried on the the US and is still with us today. So, let's take a union electrician. He learns the skills necessary to perform any task on a job including the ability to read electrical wiring diagrams/schematics. He can walk on a job, without supervision, and perform. He is a complete electrician. However, what about the case of a man skilled in the functional mechanics of electrical work but needs constant supervision and help if he has to work off a schematic? Would we call still him an electrician with, say, limitations or lacking complete knowledge? So, getting back to music. If you are a complete musician, should you be able to walk on a job "cold" and read the charts for a successful performance? Or, should the bandleader give you the music to learn at home before the gig? If you can't read the gig, in my opinion, you're not a complete musician. What about learning a new piece of music? Do you need a recording of the music or the tune in your head to figure out what to play? Or, can you sit down and read the music and learn it immediately. How could Jazz big bands or Classical symphonies exist if everyone was an ear musician. How long would it take to learn, say, a symphony? So, when I make this distinction, it is not a criticism of a performers abilities/talents but rather the fact that they are limited in their skills. A case in point: at 12 years old, I was playing paid jobs on the guitar in the Chicago area in Soul/R@B groups. At 15, to complement guitar, I began the study of saxophone and after a few months, knew the keys, could read simple lines, and had a passable sound. And, in my arrogance and stupidity, since I had "good ears," I stopped studying formally and played for the next 6 years as an ear musician on guitar and saxophone. Then, one day, I got a call that Baby Huey and the Babysitters--a great, touring R@B/Soul band needed a tenor player and I was invited for an audition at the Holiday Ballroom on Chicago's NW side. There were about ten other players at the audition and the first thing Huey wanted was to hear everyone improvise. I was the last to play and when I finished,luckily, he said, "You got the gig." He then said, "O.K., we've got a gig tomorrow. Here's the charts for the horn section." We all walked to the stage, placed our charts on the music stand and when he kicked it off, I froze. I couldn't read the charts and I lost the gig. The lesson was hard taken and it was then that I returned and studied formally at the American conservatory of Music to repair my deficiencies. It was then, I believe, that I was no longer a performer, but a musician. Good playing . . . Marinero


    Here's Baby Huey and the Babysitters:

    Last edited by Marinero; 06-08-2020 at 01:15 PM. Reason: addition

  14. #13

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  15. #14

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    Person makes sweeping binary statement, ends up tortuously justifying statement in the face of many exceptions.

    internet, why won’t you learn? :-)

    in general, if you can’t read, you have to have pretty badass ears. Jimi, Wes, etc all did. Oh, yeah Glenn Campbell...
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-08-2020 at 03:02 PM.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    O.K.,
    So, lets distinguish between a performer and musician. The above mentioned players: Wes, Django, etc., were great, talented performers and,I believe, prodigies. And, that's how they should be described. However, here's the distinction I see and I would like honest feedback from those who disagree since I think there is a point herein. Beginning in Europe, there was a tradition of "trades": glassblower, mason, machinist, etc. In order to become a "master," one had to traverse levels of competency before moving on to the next level. After many years, an apprentice would become a "master" in which he could pass his well-earned skills to other potential candidates. This tradition carried on the the US and is still with us today. So, let's take a union electrician. He learns the skills necessary to perform any task on a job including the ability to read electrical wiring diagrams/schematics. He can walk on a job, without supervision, and perform. He is a complete electrician. However, what about the case of a man skilled in the functional mechanics of electrical work but needs constant supervision and help if he has to work off a schematic? Would we call still him an electrician with, say, limitations or lacking complete knowledge? So, getting back to music. If you are a complete musician, should you be able to walk on a job "cold" and read the charts for a successful performance? Or, should the bandleader give you the music to learn at home before the gig? If you can't read the gig, in my opinion, you're not a complete musician. What about learning a new piece of music? Do you need a recording of the music or the tune in your head to figure out what to play? Or, can you sit down and read the music and learn it immediately. How could Jazz big bands or Classical symphonies exist if everyone was an ear musician. How long would it take to learn, say, a symphony? So, when I make this distinction, it is not a criticism of a performers abilities/talents but rather the fact that they are limited in their skills. A case in point: at 12 years old, I was playing paid jobs on the guitar in the Chicago area in Soul/R@B groups. At 15, to complement guitar, I began the study of saxophone and after a few months, knew the keys, could read simple lines, and had a passable sound. And, in my arrogance and stupidity, since I had "good ears," I stopped studying formally and played for the next 6 years as an ear musician on guitar and saxophone. Then, one day, I got a call that Baby Huey and the Babysitters--a great, touring R@B/Soul band needed a tenor player and I was invited for an audition at the Holiday Ballroom on Chicago's NW side. There were about ten other players at the audition and the first thing Huey wanted was to hear everyone improvise. I was the last to play and when I finished,luckily, he said, "You got the gig." He then said, "O.K., we've got a gig tomorrow. Here's the charts for the horn section." We all walked to the stage, placed our charts on the music stand and when he kicked it off, I froze. I couldn't read the charts and I lost the gig. The lesson was hard taken and it was then that I returned and studied formally at the American conservatory of Music to repair my deficiencies. It was then, I believe, that I was no longer a performer, but a musician. Good playing . . . Marinero


    Here's Baby Huey and the Babysitters:

    How can you call yourself a complete, competent troll if you can't use paragraph breaks?

    John

  17. #16

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    O.K. Boys and Girls(?),
    My purpose in this post was not to adjudicate the concept of what is a musician for posterity(although you can see I have my beliefs), but rather to understand how others feel about this subject. This is a real issue among performers/potential performers and a real roadblock ,for most, who play or who aspire to play unless you're a natural-born musical savant. And, when C says "you have to have pretty badass ears" to be in the game, it IS the problem in a nutshell. Most don't. So, for those of you who don't read, how do you learn a piece of music? And, how do you retain this knowledge if you don't play a piece for a long while? Does anyone have an answer to this question? And, if this is trolling, then we might as well eliminate all intellectual discourse that doesn't agree with the majority consensus or, as in this case, perhaps the consensus of this group. I really think this is a fair question among those who play music. Good playing . . . Marinero

  18. #17

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    You're trying to justify your efforts as a reason to claim you are better than someone else. There is no discussion here. Just "I can read music so I'm A MUSICIAN, you're just a preformer." This attitude right here, it's why people don't like jazz.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    You're trying to justify your efforts as a reason to claim you are better than someone else. There is no discussion here. Just "I can read music so I'm A MUSICIAN, you're just a preformer." This attitude right here, it's why people don't like jazz.
    Your statement, Allen, is completely absurd. Asking questions about music/musicians is not justified on a music Forum? And, where did I make any claims in my response about being better than others? That's your mental leap and it's unfair. I think the musician/performer dichotomy is valid since it doesn't presuppose any inferiority in performance/talent/sound . . . merely a difference in how the music is learned. And, your final remark/sentence makes no sense whatsoever.
    Good playing . . . Marinero

  20. #19

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    Well, here is another exception for you but I sense that you will also recategorize it to justify your binary statement: There are many blind musicians (except blind singers and whistlers) who have to use their hands either for braille reading or playing/holding their instruments and they manage with lots of extra studying (listening, braille etc) and/or big ears. They can't watch YouTube, they can't read tabs either. Yes they are musicians and they pay the higher price than sighted musicians (as with most else in their lives) to fulfill the role.

  21. #20

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    Maybe I'm mistaken, I thought your rant was people who can read music are fundamentally better than those who don't read.

    Musician being the preferred title over performer. It's all nitpicking to me, but like I have said before I didn't go to jazz school so I don't know all the rules maybe putting down others is a legitimate part of jazz.

  22. #21

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    Hi, Med,
    Thanks for your reply. And, yes, I would consider a blind person a performer. However, as I stated earlier, this does not diminish his/her talents and ability as witnessed by gifted blind performers like Ray Charles, Jose Feliciano, Diane Schurr, George Shearing, Andrea Bocelli, and Terry Gibbs. And, it does not preclude them from "Artistry" which is the result of their natural gifts and hard work. Good playing . . . Marinero

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    Maybe I'm mistaken, I thought your rant was people who can read music are fundamentally better than those who don't read.

    Musician being the preferred title over performer. It's all nitpicking to me, but like I have said before I didn't go to jazz school so I don't know all the rules maybe putting down others is a legitimate part of jazz.

    No. Good playing . . . Marinero

  24. #23

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    Just don't be content to be crap? Always be improving, developing your skills....

  25. #24

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    Marinero as a pro musician all my life, I understand what you are getting at. But the real issue is a newer generation of musicians who never played 6 night a week in the club's, playing on the road, doing jingles, etc to make a living at it.

    This is where you truly learn your craft whatever it may be. Even Tommy Tedesco, Howard Roberts, etc. They all played constantly in different situations and adapting to work to make a living.

    We now are in the age of ultimate narcissistic of selling yourself as a musician, producer, song writer, personality, and of course influencer,LOL!
    What a load of CRAP! I never did this as a hobby or part timer, weekend warrior, YUCK!

    But this is the new age of ENTERTAINMENT, and I have checked out. I still do gigs that are actual playing. But no longer am I chasing work or venues to play. And I'm glad to be done with having to play entertainer stand up comedian to the drunks.

    I do remember when the older Jazz generation telling me almost the same story when I started out as a teenager in the 1970's. And now that it's my turn, I totally get it! Best of luck to you and all who actually play music!

    By the way now that most music lacks any kind of Soul or Groove that I can relate to. I'm glad I don't have to play with what's termed as Jazz nowadays.

  26. #25

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    Interesting discussion ...

    The terms "musician" and "performer" are maybe not the best to be using here ... Maybe musician vs. "instrumentalist" (i.e., guitarist, singer, drummer), but even then, we'd have to qualify things a lot.

    About 10 years ago, when I lived in California, my band (foolishly) opened for Larry Carlton at a club. We got to hang out with him during the sound check, and he was the coolest, most gracious and humble cat ever! After we played, we got to hang and watch the real show, and after just a few tunes, I was thinking: "There's no question this guy is the Best of the Best, and man, what a performer!!" He was all over the stage, interacting with the audience, taking us wherever he wanted to go, and we were eating it up!! Larry was putting on a show, and all the while playing some of the best music out there! He was being a true professional, and there wasn't a disappointed ear in the house.