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  1. #201

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    It just occurred to me, I think your definition of performer is really closer to that of an entertainer.

    And your oddly narrow definition of musician, is really a musician who can read music.

    I don't think anyone thinks your definition of musician is demeaning or critical as much as it just arbitrarily narrow.

    You can be a musician or an entertainer (read: performer). Or both as they are not mutually exclusive.

    There are plenty of musicians who do not entertain, maybe they are more "artistic", or they simply compose music but never perform for an audience or they do play live but are really uningaging to watch.

    There are plenty of musicians who perform live and on YouTube. Again, not mutually exclusive. It is another revenue stream. One that requires different skills than playing for a live audience.

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  3. #202

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    10-12 thousand estimated hrs of stage performance,
    never been stiffed, yet I play only exclusively by ear.
    Maybe the music readers have got it all backwards?

  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    However, for me, the idea of making a living as a performing musician ,for all but the most gifted, is a sad pipe dream, at best.
    I'm having trouble understanding this sentence.

  5. #204

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    Tom Quayle is a fine player! But he probably hasn't had the chance to actually play with other bands and different musical situations for years on end in a live setting or studio setting. And again this is because of the dynamics of the business.

    He's also one the few who has superior skill set as far as technique and harmonic vocabulary as well. When playing solo, or with backing tracks you predetermine your own performance. As opposed to react to unknown improvisation of the other musicians. And again Tom Quayle is one of the few I speak of when saying great inate talent and great time feel.

    He eats ,lives and breathes music, and is not an amateur hobbyist!

  6. #205

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    hmmmm, marinero , this is one of those things like your organ grinder musician , monkey performer, where in actuality the organ grinder is controling everything anyway.

    baby huey ? wasnt ron kaplan the agent at that time ? i went to a semester at the american concervatory also , james duttun . learned a lot of things from him that were invaluble to write some primitive stuff that i would take to unbeleivably talented people to reharmonise . and , tried to tighten up my reading , which i dabbled in before . i left because i was learning a lot more about music playing with top leval black jazz musicians on the west and south sides of chicago . i had played in varius black soul bands on boogaloo congas , in the ghettos of chicago , where i was the only white guy , a reoccuring theme in my life , my last gig i was the only white guy playing in pelorinho with some guys from olodum . but this was real deal older black jazz musicians

    that was as much my music education , playing in black bands in black clubs, as any music school , more so . of course my goal to get my reading up was to expand profesional gigs. as much as anything, doing lots and lots of peoples demos , was a great reading chop builder , and its everybodies crazy charts , not perfect academy charts, and you are sight reading each new song. the more you do it over and over, the more accostomed you get to hooking up feeling with what is written out on the page . id get jingles and a few record dates you had to read ,as i went along. chicago , the hights as a profesional seem to be jingles and ramsey lewis or the chicago symphany orchestra. when the upper echolons in chicago started whipering about nashville, i knew i had to get out to the modal bop , clave and hip hop breakdance of new york

    of course, the imposable goal was to be like harvey mason or steve gadd , getting called on the top dates as the best in demand side man who could read fly crap . i never got pleasure doing reading dates . i have read a dance concert in the pit every step and you cant watch the dancers and it is so cold compared to performing with a samba dancer in the moment , hooking up with their solo. there is no comparison . the gigs where i had to read a lot , they never had the rush i got from doing a real feeling hard swinging playing gig. never the rush, the after glow that carries into the next day. its like this execution thing you have to pay attention to and not let your intuition take over. i dont care how you slice it, if you are reading, you are not totaly plugged into your intuition . and i entered music to feel it and be in touch with my intuition. the very best readers have mastered the art of the ilusion that they are playing like they are in the moment but are reading

    there is reading and then there is more intence reading and then there is fly crap reading. im definitly not a fly crap reader, nor do i aspire to be one. ive been next to them , and the skill is envious . ive lost maybe three gigs from realising the charts were too diificult to undertake and the situation was not worth it to go through the headache and pain of struggling a few nights with bad music.

    one gig i didnt get, it was with an idol , i got an audition , got to play stella by starlight with my idol and he was sick , and then struggled a little with a chart. their manager called to say they really liked me and to be ready if they called but they went with someone else. sure, maybe my moment with the chart hampered somewhat, but, they had me on standby , so it didnt seem to be an issue. and, for sure, maybe never having a fly crap reading reputation , other gigs would have escaped me. but some of my top gigs were auditions i got and got the gig. the best gigs i have had , reading wasnt the most important thing if an issue at all.

    now, i do expect people i hire to play my shows, to be able to read my charts, how is that for dichotomy ? or , i bend with their limitations. i also cant do up bop if they cant do it

    its funny too, lots of really good readers coming out of academy , cant cut basic bandstand tricks and listening . they have good time , but cant groove. they know how to read but cant listen. they can trascribe but cant hold the form. i hired one guy to play a gig and he could play the solo of miles davis on so what he learned transcribing, had a bachelors in music from the academy, but couldnt hold the form. but, he could read, play flamenco really well, play some classical guitar, knew jazz standards and brazilian music , but, didnt get that holding the form in a song like so what is about as important as anything. i actualy find i have to retrain peopel coming out of music school

    you mention these names, marinero , rachmaninoff , the others, like they are on another leval, but , none of them could play rebirth with mccoy tyner, and mccoy can read and play classical music, not on the leval of them though. im not sure why you are convinced any educated reader can swing, just like reading, there are various degrees of swing . a lounge band or vegas big band is not the same as with a top leval killer player calling off a ridiculously fast up tempo, and i was very well trained to deal with that , and it was because i wanted that . yes, there are vegas bands where there are great players who can cut up tempo modal bop, but, out of the studios i worked in with lots of people like at a marty rubinstein jingle , where you better be on the chart or you will stick out, most of them couldnt cut an up with dr lonnie smith

    ive been in the union too, two countries and four cities , and, they didnt do anything for me. sure the jingles i did with ken nordine, an incredble guy, or marty rubinststein , were union scale , and some other jobs, but, mostly they dont do anything. as a matter of fact, twice in my life in two differant countries , at gigs i got that were off the door , doing my original music, the sobs vamped on me to get money they didnt have one thing to do with getting me paid.

    now , i do sympathise with the profesional ethic, because i truly lived it. if i start naming the names, and experiances, this is going to be a very very long post. the music business is the worst business, it isnt even good capitalism , its more cronyism , monopolies, who owns the ball , rip offs rip offs rip offs. its deeply deeply competitive and more hiarcial than anything , even small cities and hobbiests , get hiarcial , sometimes more than the heavy real deal. talent doent get you the gig, hustling and luck gets you the gig. on the big time leval, there are hundreds of really talented people in line

    but, very early on, i realised, more than just work as a pro, which i did, the whole bit , 6 nights , 6 sets, national international tours , studio etc that what i wanted most was to put my vision out there. i beleived i was as good as anyone out there , not better, which may be the differance from somebody getting the brass ring, but, i knew the business was bs and hiarcial and wasnt open so i knew i would be doing it myself , parallel to working for other people .

    this point where you take your material and vision and do it and then the most important part, put it into the arena to compete, is at my 70 years, the reason i entered this business. each step, making my first record, going to new york , distributing the product, getting airplay for the product , a serious hustle and hard nut to crack but i got airplay , and a fair amount and have heard my music on the radio. then booking my vision, yes, hating the club owners and festival promoters and their utter bs, and renting my own space and doing my own promotion...etc this is where i jetison my self away from being a profesional sideman . i watched all those jingle people in chicago, and they made huge checks , who did it full time in the higher echolon, and, they never wanted to do their music. they had psyched themselves into thinking that if it didnt pay them , it wasnt worth it. or you hear some studio ace , putting out their record and it isnt playing , its comercial because they hope to hit it big as the people they work for , but they never do get it.

    my most important legacy isnt the sideman gigs i did, but , i love them and have documented a few of them and they are really killing , its my music and vision that i documented and entered into the market and competed. its the two records i charted on the world music billboard charts with the biggest pay checks i ever got in my time in the business. its a string of records and youtubes that really puts my vision out there and the four records i did that were picked up by other lablels and re released , that i get occaisional pay checks for. i didnt get rich from any of this, i live a modest life , no car, i dont do lots of partying and spending except for my lable and production company . these are some of the things i am most gratified about as being a musician , and i feel as alive and in the competition fighting for my vision as ever in my life, im not hanging up the spurs and watching from a distance , and yeah, maybe im a crazy old fool legend in my own mind, just dont wake me up, because what a way to go out...but for all intensive purposes in the radar of the "music business" i am off the radar and irrelevant.but another thing i learned in all my sideman days, while there are huge amonts of bad musicians, there are also huge amounts of great musicians , who are skinning the cat in a lot of ways.

    it just seems there are more complex dynamics in this theory you put out here , but i hear what you are saying, and jad and the other pros and not pros. i envy the people who dont do this for a business and have the innocent new freshness of just playing what they want , i am actualy trying to play what i want now, but, im entering it into the arena , so , its going to get knocked on the ground and get dirty

    yes, i saw my thread about officer daivid dorn taken down, when i had no bad words or attitudes but was pointing out the truth, and just for pointing out the truth and just like the pandemic truth i pointed out that just became reality , it just get belittled and eventualy censored , because there are people who cant handle the truth. you all let me know when we can have the real discusion of what is going on out here, with out having to grunt at me or run away or censure me, and you might find out things you didnt know were going on......what a drag to censure me, you cant shame me on that shit, i dont do guilt well , and i dont cowtow to the moment where you better get on our knee or you just dont count...but, i can see this thread deserves various insights to make some sence

  7. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark
    I'm having trouble understanding this sentence.
    Answer: no money. Ask Bobby Broom. Good playing . . . Marinero

  8. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    10-12 thousand estimated hrs of stage performance,
    never been stiffed, yet I play only exclusively by ear.
    Maybe the music readers have got it all backwards?
    Your statement, P, is, of course, patently absurd. Ever play in R@B/Strip Clubs on the West and South side of Chicago? And, what does that have to do with your ears??? Good playing . . . Marinero

  9. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    they may have made more money but they missed one of the great experiences for a musician: playing live before a crowd and/or on the road.
    For you Marinero .. Rumor has it that Tom suffers from bad nerves/anxiety .. so 30 years ago a talent like his would have gone unnoticed. Luckily these days he can put himself out there from the comfort of his own home and still get recognition.

    The glasses you have on aren't the entire world and you might be missing nuances.



    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Tom Quayle is a fine player! But he probably hasn't had the chance to actually play with other bands and different musical situations for years on end in a live setting or studio setting. And again this is because of the dynamics of the business.
    A case of not so much the business, but Toms personality as noted above. At least these days you can find different paths to get your craft out


    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    He's also one the few who has superior skill set as far as technique and harmonic vocabulary as well. When playing solo, or with backing tracks you predetermine your own performance. As opposed to react to unknown improvisation of the other musicians. And again Tom Quayle is one of the few I speak of when saying great inate talent and great time feel.

    He eats ,lives and breathes music, and is not an amateur hobbyist!

  10. #209
    :For you Marinero .. Rumor has it that Tom suffers from bad nerves .. so 30 years ago a talent like his would have gone unnoticed. Luckily these days he can put himself out there from the comfort of his own home and still get recognition." Lobomov

    Hi, L,
    Do you mean what we used to call "stage fright" during the Pleistocene? Good playing . . . Marinero

  11. #210

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    Good or Bad the Old Days you had to preform in the moment! And improvisation was much more abundant in Pop live performances as well. This is another problem with the newer generation that absolutely drives me crazy!

    Jimi Hendrix, The Beatles, Police,etc couldn't perform the same exact studio versions of their songs. So they would embellish certain things like leaving the frosting out and replace it with solos etc.

    This is very much in keeping with the Jazz Improvisation Spirit. And we always looked forward to seeing the live versions because of it. Why would you go to see something with no excitement or chance taking? How boring, like going to a pre ordained car race,

    But nowadays it's replaced with Visual Experiences that supposedly enhance the Backing Tracks,YUCK! I don't even care if it's Brittany Spears or Bruce Springsteen. It SUCKS!

  12. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Police,etc couldn't perform the same exact studio versions of their songs. So they would embellish certain things like leaving the frosting out and replace it with solos etc.

    Yeah .. The Police .. But that is more a function of Stewart and Andy being in the band.

    Sting runs a tight ship and songs are delivered exactly the same night after night. No tracks maybe, but Vinnie Colaiuta, Dominic Miller and whoever he has with him are kept on an VERY tight leash. It is actually the same concert night after night down to details like now Vinnie uses flams in his drumming

    You can see Sting discussing this in the documentary that came with footage of the 2007 Police reunion tour and being faced with Stewarts unruly drumming again

  13. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    O.K. One of my pet peeves--how does one consider themselves a musician if they can't read music? I occasionally surf Youtube for songs/players/ideas and occasionally take a look at some of the guitar "lesson" sites. Some guy has a 45 minute video showing each chord/note for a song that could be played in less than a minute with the SHEET MUSIC. Who could possibly sit through this madness? How long does it take to gain proficiency this way? There is a difference between a musician and a performer. A musician reads music. A performer does not. Period. Good playing . . . Marinero
    I was a performer, not a musician. My last gig was 1999. I gave up on the business aspect around 2015.
    What's your dealio?

  14. #213

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    I'm having a hard time understanding this sentence:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    And, their music is dead as their lives.


    Ritmo: nice to see you back. I was starting to worry what with the news coming out of Brazil these days.

  15. #214

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    Sting not using Jazz Improvisation ? Heavy, I say! Why on earth would he hire the best Jazz Musicians of his era to play live or on records with him then?

    Branford Marsalis, Kenny Kirkland, Omar Hakim, Darryl Jones, Vinnie Caliuta, David Sancious, etc! Why not save the money and hire non credentialed musicians who who work for way less?
    Not saying they didn't follow a script of sorts, but no improv? Really?

    A freind of mine who played with Johnny Lang some years ago was a supporting act for Sting for a tour. I'LL ask him and get his opinion and report back.

  16. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    For you Marinero .. Rumor has it that Tom suffers from bad nerves/anxiety .. so 30 years ago a talent like his would have gone unnoticed. Luckily these days he can put himself out there from the comfort of his own home and still get recognition.

    The glasses you have on aren't the entire world and you might be missing nuances.





    A case of not so much the business, but Toms personality as noted above. At least these days you can find different paths to get your craft out




    Tom Quayle’s a funny one. Clearly incredibly talented player.

    It bothers me tbh that his gig seems to be to sell gear and jam along with bland fusion backing tracks. But maybe that’s what guitar playing is now.

  17. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Sting not using Jazz Improvisation ? Heavy, I say! Why on earth would he hire the best Jazz Musicians of his era to play live or on records with him then?

    Branford Marsalis, Kenny Kirkland, Omar Hakim, Darryl Jones, Vinnie Caliuta, David Sancious, etc! Why not save the money and hire non credentialed musicians who who work for way less?
    Not saying they didn't follow a script of sorts, but no improv? Really?

    A freind of mine who played with Johnny Lang some years ago was a supporting act for Sting for a tour. I'LL ask him and get his opinion and report back.

    The Marsalis, Kirkland, Hakim, Jones band was something else ... 1985 Sting proving him self to the world .. Amazing band, I don't doubt for a minute that that band was just blowing , but that band was a short run.

    We're talking later Sting, where there might be improv when playing a scheduled solo, but overall not really it appears

    I dunno, I'd love to her from you friend .. I don't mind being mistaken here.



    Kirkland and Marsalis stayed on for the Nothing like the sun tour, but once we hit his Soul Cages band in 1991 then his band is Dominic Miller, David Sancious and Vinnie Caliuta ... I saw this band personally. Their concert the day before in Sweden was televised and I watched it .. which kinda ruined the concert for me as it was identical to the one I saw on TV the day before.

    And currently the band apparently is



    Of which I only know Dominic??





    Why not save the money and hire non credentialed musicians who who work for way less?

    Cos he is Sting, plays large venues and likes everything running like clockwork?

  18. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Ahh I get it now .. The fact that someone like Tom Quayle has not experienced the pleasure of getting prodded anally by a bar owner enough times as he has built his career mostly online makes him a non-musician or at least a non-proper PRO

    I dig ...





    Tom is the guy in the glasses sporting his brown HSS signature Ibanez TQM1
    A little heavy on the effects but he's got some nice lines. I like it.

  19. #218

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    Special dedication to Jads and Marinero;


  20. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Answer: no money. Ask Bobby Broom. Good playing . . . Marinero
    What is a performing musician?
    Someone who can't read music reading music?

  21. #220

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    Two men in a room playing How Insensitive without a trace of emotion, as if it were a duty; filmed by two others, who in turn are filmed; I found it rather sinister.

    Compare and contrast:


  22. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Two men in a room playing How Insensitive without a trace of emotion, as if it were a duty; filmed by two others, who in turn are filmed; I found it rather sinister.

    Compare and contrast:


    You mean compared to an overdressed woman making overblown guitar faces while playing two notes in front of horn player gently swaying while hugging their horns in tender embrace?

    Served with a big bowl of chorus on the side?


    Potato potata on the sinister scale .. I prefer no emotion to theatrical "emotion"


    It's all in the eye of the beholder

  23. #222

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    Learn standards in all 12 keys. Play at 300 BPM.
    Go play smooth jazz..

  24. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Special dedication to Jads and Marinero;

    Wow, S,
    What a way to start my morning! I'm heading now to get my black cabretta leather jacket and black wool beret from the closet. . . on second thought, it's 90 degrees today and I'll have to wait until Fall. Thanks, S . . . nothing like some Funk. Good playing . . . Marinero
    Last edited by Marinero; 06-15-2020 at 09:57 AM. Reason: spelling

  25. #224
    "Jimi Hendrix, The Beatles, Police,etc couldn't perform the same exact studio versions of their songs. So they would embellish certain things like leaving the frosting out and replace it with solos etc." Jads


    Hi, J,
    That's because they were performers and had thousands of gigs under their belt. It's what you have to do when you play live unless your reading charts. When I soloed in my bands, I always tried to bring something fresh . .. however, the reality is that you usually played the same basic solo with some new embellishments. Good playing . . . Marinero

  26. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    I was a performer, not a musician. My last gig was 1999. I gave up on the business aspect around 2015.
    What's your dealio?

    Hi, S,
    Started in Soul/R@B groups(paid gigs) at age 12-20(guitar/sax) working exclusively in the Chicago area as a weekend warrior in bars/strip clubs. Then, 20-26, led several Jazz/Rock big bands full-time and played(sax/flute) locally and on the road--union bands with agent bookings. Also, did studio work writing horn parts and playing sax/flute. Bailed from full-time music late in 1976 and moved to Miami after Disco killed the good paying jobs for big bands and booking became fewer and fewer and the pay scale dropped significantly unless you were a "nationally recognized" group. I got out of music as a "vocation" but "sat in" with local Jazz/Bossa groups in Miami regularly on sax. No playing/performing from 1985-1991. In 1992, I began the study of Classical Guitar and studied with two international performing artists who graciously accepted me as a student because of my former experience and resume in music. Then, started performing on solo guitar from '95 to '17(bistros,clubs,weddings) as a weekend warrior as I ran a full-time business(38 years) in the real world. Retired in 2017 and now play "full-time" again with a mixed bag of Classical/Jazz/Bossa depending on the gig--usually upscale bistros/restaurants as I continue my personal development. That's my dealio! Good playing . . . Marinero

    P.S. I studied formally at the Chicago Musical College/Roosevelt University, Wright College and Harold Washington College(formerly Loop College) with studies in theory, orchestration, arranging and composing and advanced practical studies on saxophone/flute as well as with Chicago Jazz pianist Willie Pickens for improvisation and interpretation. Here's Willie on the great Jazz standard "Someday My Prince Will Come." Rest in Peace, brother!

  27. #226
    Sometimes bebop licks just don't fit with the music. Here's my take on this classic with some tasty guitar.
    Good playing . . . Marinero



  28. #227

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    Very nice mood music. I really love Pat Martino version from the Visit Album. He manages to play some beautiful Bebop Jazz lines through this song!


  29. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, S,
    Started in Soul/R@B groups(paid gigs) at age 12-20(guitar/sax) working exclusively in the Chicago area as a weekend warrior in bars/strip clubs. Then, 20-26, led several Jazz/Rock big bands full-time and played(sax/flute) locally and on the road--union bands with agent bookings. Also, did studio work writing horn parts and playing sax/flute. Bailed from full-time music late in 1976 and moved to Miami after Disco killed the good paying jobs for big bands and booking became fewer and fewer and the pay scale dropped significantly unless you were a "nationally recognized" group. I got out of music as a "vocation" but "sat in" with local Jazz/Bossa groups in Miami regularly on sax. No playing/performing from 1985-1991. In 1992, I began the study of Classical Guitar and studied with two international performing artists who graciously accepted me as a student because of my former experience and resume in music. Then, started performing on solo guitar from '95 to '17(bistros,clubs,weddings) as a weekend warrior as I ran a full-time business(38 years) in the real world. Retired in 2017 and now play "full-time" again with a mixed bag of Classical/Jazz/Bossa depending on the gig--usually upscale bistros/restaurants as I continue my personal development. That's my dealio! Good playing . . . Marinero

    P.S. I studied formally at the Chicago Musical College/Roosevelt University, Wright College and Harold Washington College(formerly Loop College) with studies in theory, orchestration, arranging and composing and advanced practical studies on saxophone/flute as well as with Chicago Jazz pianist Willie Pickens for improvisation and interpretation. Here's Willie on the great Jazz standard "Someday My Prince Will Come." Rest in Peace, brother!
    I was raised by classical musicians. They said, be a musician, go run with gangsters and don't ask us for money....
    Ah, OK. I thought, this is going to be interesting.
    I told the navy, send me to Alaska. They sent me to California. I got kicked out after almost 3 years of active duty, then got back in, only to go awol (UA) from monthly meetings. While driving a cab I heard about rock and R&B gigs overseas. Then I heard you could make a million dollars in less than 10 years. That would be about 2.3 million today. I thought 'rock' meant hair bands but that wasn't true.
    I went for R&B and climbed the ladder for about 4 years.
    Then I took the Death Ride to Osaka around 86'. I wanted to step in front of a bus and end it all after a few months, just like in the movie. Then I met a Japanese girl at the club. She said- sleep. I slept.
    I stuck it out for the full 6 months.
    Crash and burn. That was the end of me in music. I knew too many dirty secrets and I was exhausted. I stayed with a 'friend with benefits' for a little while in California then went back to Buffalo to be a janitor.
    After that I tried different bands but nothing serious. I worked full time. I practiced constantly like back in the 70's. I'm 'chop challenged'. I can't play classical music and solo jazz wears me out fast.
    What am I good for? Not much I suppose. I don't want to work with people who have bad meter. I'm a robot when it comes to that..
    1, 2, fuck you!
    Just count it off.
    That's why I like grooveboxes. A lot of musicians have problems with meter but younger musicians have better meter than boomers did.
    That's about it. My 'career' in music. Grand total- maybe 10-12 grand.
    Whoopee.
    Last edited by Stevebol; 06-16-2020 at 02:29 AM.

  30. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Very nice mood music. I really love Pat Martino version from the Visit Album. He manages to play some beautiful Bebop Jazz lines through this song!

    The version Emily Remler did with Larry Coryell is to me an iconic version too ... Not a bad word about Emily's actual playing


  31. #230
    Hi, Stevebol,
    You may still make a million bucks! You have a great story for a novel. Get out the old Smith-Corona typewriter and get busy . . . oh, ya, I mean computer. Well, I guess we all have to change sometimes. Good playing . . . Marinero

  32. #231
    Musician/performer? Here's Andrea Motis playing some trumpet with friends. Good playing . . . Marinero



  33. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, Stevebol,
    You may still make a million bucks! You have a great story for a novel. Get out the old Smith-Corona typewriter and get busy . . . oh, ya, I mean computer. Well, I guess we all have to change sometimes. Good playing . . . Marinero
    I only share stories with people here.
    I have a little project going with another guitar player doing electronic music with no computers. It's an experiment in reconstruction. We're old farts. Took forever to decide on gear.
    'Publish or perish' isn't my thing.
    I miss the ocean. I need to get a heavier car and visit more often. I don't miss this other stuff. I visited a couple years ago and it was trip seeing how much California has changed. The 7th fleet gone from National City. Almost all the bars gone. Thousands of young people on the streets in downtown Diego. Might be a spring break destination now.
    California isn't easy to adapt to. I couldn't do it in 8 years. I should have stuck around a while longer. One thing about Vegas and I guessed right- you can adapt quickly. California is complicated.

  34. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Tom Quayle is a fine player! But he probably hasn't had the chance to actually play with other bands and different musical situations for years on end in a live setting or studio setting. And again this is because of the dynamics of the business.

    He's also one the few who has superior skill set as far as technique and harmonic vocabulary as well. When playing solo, or with backing tracks you predetermine your own performance. As opposed to react to unknown improvisation of the other musicians. And again Tom Quayle is one of the few I speak of when saying great inate talent and great time feel.

    He eats ,lives and breathes music, and is not an amateur hobbyist!
    Plenty of us amateurs work with improvisational approaches. Indeed, I was more often asked to play something note-for-note precisely when a paying audience determined the paycheck, and was freer to improvise with others when there was no money on the line at all.

  35. #234

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    Wonderful Jazz approach copying note for note! YUK!!!!!

    It certainly ceases to be Jazz when the Spirit or Soul of the music is so controlled! How absolutely boring and non interesting,no matter what piece of music.

    This is what I absolutely what I hate, how music has become so controlled and prescribed by someone. Even Prince was a Control Freak in this vein. Where as
    Jimi Hendrix understood improvisation and let his music Breathe.

    You can feel when music breathes and flows, and nowadays with all of the technical control available to the individual. It absolutely stifles creativity of the music. All under the illusion of saying it allows freedom! What an oxymoron !

  36. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Wonderful Jazz approach copying note for note! YUK!!!!!

    It certainly ceases to be Jazz when the Spirit or Soul of the music is so controlled! How absolutely boring and non interesting,no matter what piece of music.

    This is what I absolutely what I hate, how music has become so controlled and prescribed by someone. Even Prince was a Control Freak in this vein. Where as
    Jimi Hendrix understood improvisation and let his music Breathe.

    You can feel when music breathes and flows, and nowadays with all of the technical control available to the individual. It absolutely stifles creativity of the music. All under the illusion of saying it allows freedom! What an oxymoron !
    I didn't say I was playing jazz. For the record, I wasn't. I was playing classic-rock covers for $50/night.

    The improv stuff happened when I started organizing little barbecues with other local players -- bring your wife and kids and your own beer. Four or five guitarists of varying skills but nothing prearranged at all. It was fun, and a great learning experience for me.

    Point is that amateurs can and do improvise as well. Not monetizing it doesn't mean it isn't, well, musicized.

    ETA: Where does that leave classical musicians? They play charts, but their playing is orchestrated by the conductor; their job is to play the part as perfectly as possible. Thye don't improvise, but they do read music. Are they musicians in your mind, or are they not? Why or why not?

    Not trying to argue here, I just want to understand this seeming mismatch.

  37. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    I didn't say I was playing jazz. For the record, I wasn't. I was playing classic-rock covers for $50/night.

    The improv stuff happened when I started organizing little barbecues with other local players -- bring your wife and kids and your own beer. Four or five guitarists of varying skills but nothing prearranged at all. It was fun, and a great learning experience for me.

    Point is that amateurs can and do improvise as well. Not monetizing it doesn't mean it isn't, well, musicized.

    ETA: Where does that leave classical musicians? They play charts, but their playing is orchestrated by the conductor; their job is to play the part as perfectly as possible. Thye don't improvise, but they do read music. Are they musicians in your mind, or are they not? Why or why not?

    Not trying to argue here, I just want to understand this seeming mismatch.
    Not quite on topic but a welcome diversion in this thread.

    I assume you are picturing an orchestra with a conductor. There are other types of performance settings in the classical world, the most obvious being solo guitar. But also in string quartets and duets.
    I should also point out that there is improvising in certain areas of classically music the most obvious being at the end of a Concerto, the accompanists stop and the soloists get to flex their muscles in the Cadenza.
    Often their is a written solo that the performer can choose to play, but that is a more recent concept/inclusion in modern printings.
    Satchmo turn this on it's head by playing a Cadenza at the beginning of West end blues. At the beginning!!!
    A similar thing used to occur in opera.
    I'm sure you have heard the term encore. You of course know it is French for again. Meaning sing the song you just sang, AGAIN! Not please perform two more different songs at the end of the set.
    Anyway, if an encore was requested by the audience they would sing the same Aria again. But if course the singers wood embellish and improvise the second time, because really who wants to hear the same thing twice... Ugh boring.
    This phenomenon became so common that composers started Incorporating it into the compositions, thus the da Capo Aria was born. Da Capo (from "dc al fine fame") of course means from the top.

    There is also even more improvising in baroque and earlier eras of classical music, before the composer's notes became revered as a gospel. The most obvious is in the use of figured bass in keyboard music. This is where the composer writes or a bass line and uses symbols to tell the player was the chords are. Then the player makes up their own appropriate right hand comping, very similar to jazz.
    https://static.newworldencyclopedia....gured_bass.png example of figured bass. The smaller notes showing what notes are implied by the numbers.

    How about some more contemporary classical improv? One of my favorites is when composers used graphic notation. This is very useful if you are but a lowly "performer" I have always found Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, to be one of the most moving pieces ever composed. Follow along with the score!

    All of the pitches are chosen by the players.

    Not strictly improvised but in 20th century classical there are newer notes used employed that refer to indiscriminate pitches. On the stem of the note there is a small x (similar to a grace note). This means more given not is approximate. Shoenberg famously used it in Pierrot Lunaire and he termed is singspreche
    http://www.sheetmusicfox.com/images/121911.png see the first line of the vocal.


    I love music history!!!!

    Tldr: there is improvisation in classical music

  38. #237

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    But for all those classical performers who improvise, my question is about those who don't, because I don't think anyone here would say orchestral musicians aren't actually musicians. I believe this is a contradiction in Jads's view.

  39. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlemark

    ...

    I should also point out that there is improvising in certain areas of classically music the most obvious being at the end of a Concerto, the accompanists stop and the soloists get to flex their muscles in the Cadenza.
    Often their is a written solo that the performer can choose to play, but that is a more recent concept/inclusion in modern printings.
    Satchmo turn this on it's head by playing a Cadenza at the beginning of West end blues. At the beginning!!!
    A similar thing used to occur in opera.
    I'm sure you have heard the term encore. You of course know it is French for again. Meaning sing the song you just sang, AGAIN! Not please perform two more different songs at the end of the set.
    Anyway, if an encore was requested by the audience they would sing the same Aria again. But if course the singers wood embellish and improvise the second time, because really who wants to hear the same thing twice... Ugh boring.
    This phenomenon became so common that composers started Incorporating it into the compositions, thus the da Capo Aria was born. Da Capo (from "dc al fine fame") of course means from the top.

    There is also even more improvising in baroque and earlier eras of classical music, before the composer's notes became revered as a gospel. The most obvious is in the use of figured bass in keyboard music. This is where the composer writes or a bass line and uses symbols to tell the player was the chords are. Then the player makes up their own appropriate right hand comping, very similar to jazz.
    https://static.newworldencyclopedia....gured_bass.png example of figured bass. The smaller notes showing what notes are implied by the numbers.

    How about some more contemporary classical improv? One of my favorites is when composers used graphic notation. This is very useful if you are but a lowly "performer" I have always found Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, to be one of the most moving pieces ever composed. Follow along with the score!

    All of the pitches are chosen by the players.

    Not strictly improvised but in 20th century classical there are newer notes used employed that refer to indiscriminate pitches. On the stem of the note there is a small x (similar to a grace note). This means more given not is approximate. Shoenberg famously used it in Pierrot Lunaire and he termed is singspreche
    http://www.sheetmusicfox.com/images/121911.png see the first line of the vocal.


    I love music history!!!!

    Tldr: there is improvisation in classical music
    Lots of cool and opened minded posts in this forum, and the above is one of them.


    It's never my intention to horribly stereotype anyone for any reason, however, I'm not sure that someone who offers Penderecki and Schoenberg as examples is going to enjoy Brahms (despite Schoenberg's kind words) but I've heard the Joachim cadenza performed by Janine Jansen under a number of conductors, and regardless of it being the result of study or the weather or just how she feels right there and then, there's always something that's different or perhaps simply shifted a little. Sure, she has tickets to sell and all that, but I'm still buying into it 100%.
    In any case, for anyone inclined, in this video the cadenza starts at about 18:45 -


    Also, I agree about the Armstrong/West End Blues/cadenza - and I can barely imagine what that must have sounded like to listeners at the time.

  40. #239

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    Thumpalumpacus fun playing Dress up Musician? I'm content with being a Crabby old musician. Thank God for the internet and forums like this where we can vent all of our life's frustrations to our hearts content!

  41. #240
    "ETA: Where does that leave classical musicians? They play charts, but their playing is orchestrated by the conductor; their job is to play the part as perfectly as possible. Thye don't improvise, but they do read music. Are they musicians in your mind, or are they not? Why or why not?" Thumpalumpacus

    Hi, T,
    I'm glad you brought this subject to the discussion. The difference between a Classical musician and a Jazz musician is that traditional Classical musicians don't improvise. O.K, we can talk about the Baroque period/Bach where it was done frequently but it isn't really done anymore to my knowledge to any great degree in Classical performance. However, what a great Classical musician does is to take those black dots on the page and breathe life into them with musical nuance where they are not just a representation of sound but rather . . . an emotive experience. And, it is this skill that most closely approximates Jazz . . . not improvisation, but rather the feel. We see it in the piano works of Rubenstein, Kempff, Horowitz, and in the Classical guitarists Steidl, Gallen, Fernandez. Here's one of my favorites, Roland Dyens, a true hybrid guitarist.
    Good playing . . . Marinero


    ?

  42. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "ETA: Where does that leave classical musicians? They play charts, but their playing is orchestrated by the conductor; their job is to play the part as perfectly as possible. Thye don't improvise, but they do read music. Are they musicians in your mind, or are they not? Why or why not?" Thumpalumpacus

    Hi, T,
    I'm glad you brought this subject to the discussion. The difference between a Classical musician and a Jazz musician is that traditional Classical musicians don't improvise. O.K, we can talk about the Baroque period/Bach where it was done frequently but it isn't really done anymore to my knowledge to any great degree in Classical performance. However, what a great Classical musician does is to take those black dots on the page and breathe life into them with musical nuance where they are not just a representation of sound but rather . . . an emotive experience. And, it is this skill that most closely approximates Jazz . . . not improvisation, but rather the feel. We see it in the piano works of Rubenstein, Kempff, Horowitz, and in the Classical guitarists Steidl, Gallen, Fernandez. Here's one of my favorites, Roland Dyens, a true hybrid guitarist.
    Good playing . . . Marinero


    ?
    This is time capsule stuff;


  43. #242
    "ETA: Where does that leave classical musicians? They play charts, but their playing is orchestrated by the conductor; their job is to play the part as perfectly as possible. Thye don't improvise, but they do read music. Are they musicians in your mind, or are they not? Why or why not?" Thumpalumpacus

    Hi, T,
    I'm glad you brought this subject to the discussion. The difference between a Classical musician and a Jazz musician is that traditional Classical musicians don't improvise. O.K, we can talk about the Baroque period/Bach where it was done frequently but it isn't really done anymore to my knowledge to any great degree in Classical performance. However, what a great Classical musician does is to take those black dots on the page and breathe life into them with musical nuance where they are not just a representation of sound but rather . . . an emotive experience. And, it is this skill that most closely approximates Jazz . . . not improvisation, but rather the feel. We see it in the piano works of Rubenstein, Kempff, Horowitz, and in the Classical guitarists Steidl, Gallen, Fernandez. Here's one of my favorites, Roland Dyens, a true hybrid guitarist.
    Good playing . . . Marinero


    ?

  44. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Thumpalumpacus fun playing Dress up Musician? I'm content with being a Crabby old musician. Thank God for the internet and forums like this where we can vent all of our life's frustrations to our hearts content!
    So you agree that orchestral musicians are musicians even though they don't improvise? Am I reading you right?

    I definitely agree that for me, improvisation is the soul of music. But I don't expect other musicians to romance the Muse the same way that I do. I am enjoying the discussion and have no heartburn about it, just so we're clear. Though I disagree with most of your stated views, it's still something good to chew on, so thanks for posting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    ETA: Where does that leave classical musicians? They play charts, but their playing is orchestrated by the conductor; their job is to play the part as perfectly as possible. Thye don't improvise, but they do read music. Are they musicians in your mind, or are they not? Why or why not?" Thumpalumpacus

    Hi, T,
    I'm glad you brought this subject to the discussion. The difference between a Classical musician and a Jazz musician is that traditional Classical musicians don't improvise. O.K, we can talk about the Baroque period/Bach where it was done frequently but it isn't really done anymore to my knowledge to any great degree in Classical performance. However, what a great Classical musician does is to take those black dots on the page and breathe life into them with musical nuance where they are not just a representation of sound but rather . . . an emotive experience. And, it is this skill that most closely approximates Jazz . . . not improvisation, but rather the feel. We see it in the piano works of Rubenstein, Kempff, Horowitz, and in the Classical guitarists Steidl, Gallen, Fernandez. Here's one of my favorites, Roland Dyens, a true hybrid guitarist.
    Good playing . . . Marinero


    ?
    My question, though, is that Jads57 has stated that not improvising in performance is the sign of a non-musician, and I'm trying to wrap my head around that, because it seems to me like they're some damned fine musicians, even if I'm not a huge fan of orchestral music. I still acknowledge their talent and skills, used albeit in a form different than how I use my musical knowledge and skill.

    I'm just curious why he'd derogate them as musicians.

  45. #244

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    My mistake or misunderstanding. I never meant to imply classical reading musicians were not qualified professionals. In fact they are the original pro musicians. It's only later that other styles in modern music required a differe t skill set, like improvisational solo skills.

    No bad feelings here either Thumpalumpacus

    I just hate that technology has reached a point towhere it replaces actual musical knowledge and musicians. And the main reason being lack of funding and low bar of music itself.
    Do t get me wrong I love Chuck Berry, Louis Jordan, The Beatles, Isleys and the rest as well. But it does not mean Oscar Peterson and the great Jazz musicians should not be included,admired or learned from!