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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So I was asked what's wrong with being a weekend warrior,etc. Actually nothing until the weekend warrior believes he's a pro and is on par with real pros who do this for a living.

    I would never dare to go to anyone's day job and presume I'm as competent at their skill set.Even if I had some basic knowledge of that particular job.
    And that along with the self promo B.S. that's the current trend IS the problem!

    I see posts regularly here with guys promoting themselves as actual musicians. Just because you e memorized a piece of music like a Parrot. It doesn't mean you actually understand it, or able to play it with other musicians.

    As far as new music it really is KINDERGARTEN as far as harmony, rhythm and melody. And as I've stated before, the new Jazzers sound like a technical excersice from their music school ,and swings like it as well.

    Sorry to be so harsh, but after 45 years in the business and this is what it's become is Super Depressing!
    This rants sounds like the Reese candy commercial. Come on, no one believes you're really sorry to be so harsh.

    (because someone that is sorry, doesn't keep on doing what they claim to be sorry about, over and over again, just like in the commercial).

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  3. #52

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    let me see if this makes sense. A performer plays in fromt of people. But a musician dosent have to, to be one. I don't see where reading music has much to do with either one.

  4. #53

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    Let me phrase this a different way how many of you do this for your main income?
    If not, and you are part time how much of your music income percentage wise goes to pay your mortgage, heating , groceries,etc?

    Also what do you do for your livelihood? And yes I believe this is extremely important to this discussion.

    Thanks!

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    In the music world there are few rules, but I kind of think one of them must be that a musician does not walk out of a gig.
    Have to agree. That's unprofessional.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Let me phrase this a different way how many of you do this for your main income?
    If not, and you are part time how much of your music income percentage wise goes to pay your mortgage, heating , groceries,etc?

    Also what do you do for your livelihood? And yes I believe this is extremely important to this discussion.

    Thanks!
    Oh I see where you're going with this:

    1st class musician: Those who perform and compose un-compromised sophisticated art music as the only source of income and earn 100K+ (no teaching and other BS).

    2nd class musician: Those who perform and create music as the only source of income but have to play crap music at corporate events, weddings etc. but still make 100K+.

    3rd class musician: Like the 2nd class but also has to teach.

    4th class musician: Like the 1st class but poor.

    etc etc etc ...

    How am I doing?
    Last edited by Tal_175; 06-09-2020 at 05:41 PM.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    No you're not a MUSICIAN because you're competent! There isn't that much demand for musicians any longer. Basically Marinero we have a bunch of wannabes who like to play dress up as a musician. Sorry fellas but the harsh reality is most of you just suck as musicians, and never would have made the grade. I'm not just being mean to put people down. But it's the truth, just like I'm no good at many things as well.

    We now live in a Virtual Reality where you can pretend to be whomever you wish.
    Even President of the United States.
    I for one would rather deal with the reality of knowing where I stand. And in no way am I in the league of Larry Carlton, Joe Pass, Jaco Pastoius, etc. But I was good enough to work for 45 years and make a modest living. It's what I did for a living like any other job.
    There's an awful lot of ego in this post.

    Reading music is not the same skill as making music. The finger pointing at the Moon is not the Moon.

    If you're skilled at woodworking and practice the craft, you're a woodworker. If you've operated a car for thirty years without an accident, you're a good driver. If you write poetry in the privacy of your den, and get the words to say what you want them to say, you're a poet.

    If you're competent at making music, then you're a musician. Your opinion doesn't change the fact that reading music is not the sine qua non of musicianship. I really don't care how many words you capitalize in your responses, either. Think before you post, next time.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Let me phrase this a different way how many of you do this for your main income?
    If not, and you are part time how much of your music income percentage wise goes to pay your mortgage, heating , groceries,etc?

    Also what do you do for your livelihood? And yes I believe this is extremely important to this discussion.

    Thanks!
    Oh, so you meant to write "professional musician"? Why didn't you just do so?

    This is another set of moving goalposts. Protip: when you have to change the premises of your post this regularly, not only are your premises flawed, your thinking is sloppy.

    Your quietbrag is not so quiet as you think. It's actually rather braying.

    Glad you've made a living reading music others have written. Sorry you think that's the requirement for musicianship.

  9. #58

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    So a couple of you who call my posts narcisstic and negative, and I'm unwilling to change. Interesting but I've played very style of music that makes money and then some
    Pop, Jazz Standards, Rock, Blues, Country old and newer, Reggae, Latin, Mexican , Brazilian, Cuban, Worrship old and Praise, Some limited African styles,etc.

    I've played bars , large and small, as well as concerts, and Orchestra Hall, Churhes, Mega, and small. Black and White Christian , Synagogues, festivals big and small
    With National Artists and local artists. Done national and local jingles, National and local acts. T.V. shows and Radio Shows

    I think that's pretty willing to change to earn a living! There comes a time wnen you dont get called because theres a new guard that mainly gets the calls. I did that in my time as well, and replaced someone else. I'm not bitter about younger players taking the work. But it has nothing to do with skills other than looking and willing to hang with the Hip Crowd. Not interested any longer.

    Again I've put my credentials to show where my opinions come from. I'm not an armchair quarterback. That's why I keep asking what do you guys do for a living?
    I would hesitate to be so opinionated if I didn't do this for a living for over 45 years. If I wasn't opinionated by this point, I'd say it would be a miracle. And the same goes for anyone who has worked the same field for over 40 years!

    So what's your story?

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So a couple of you who call my posts narcisstic and negative, and I'm unwilling to change. Interesting but I've played very style of music that makes money and then some
    Pop, Jazz Standards, Rock, Blues, Country old and newer, Reggae, Latin, Mexican , Brazilian, Cuban, Worrship old and Praise, Some limited African styles,etc.

    I've played bars , large and small, as well as concerts, and Orchestra Hall, Churhes, Mega, and small. Black and White Christian , Synagogues, festivals big and small
    With National Artists and local artists. Done national and local jingles, National and local acts. T.V. shows and Radio Shows

    I think that's pretty willing to change to earn a living!
    That's nice, but none of that qualifies you to pronounce on what it means to practice the art -- not the commerce -- of music. You're sure experienced in the business, but you seem to be mistaking the business of music with the art of making music.

    In an ironic twist, it's pretty much the same complaint you seem to be making about modern musicians.

    Got any clips? I'd love to hear what your artistry encompasses. Let's hear your original music, musician.

    To answer your question, I tried, and failed, to make a living at music. I've written a couple of hundred songs that weren't earth-shaking (probably due to my personal tastes), done some demos and sessions, a bit of gigging between 95 and 2011, and appear to have made much less money than you have. Does that disqualify me as a musician? Or just as a professional musician, which was the point of my last post.

    Too bad we can't just sit down and jam. That tells the truth about musicianship: the ability to listen and integrate into unknown material.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Wrote a long post .. but in the end .. wtf .. nvm...
    Dig. I seem to be doing a lot of that lately.

  12. #61

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    Just as Ive said in previous posts Amateur Wannabes posting opinions they have little real first hand experience in. As I've said over and over unless you did it for a living for quite a bit of time and had to survive. Which means actually performing with others in various scenarios your an amateur.

    That's fine as well, but without that first hand knowledge your opinions are limited in scope and depth. And wether you admit it or not , you would fail miserably in many musical situations. Just cause you understand theory doesn't mean you apply it well. Just cause you studied reading doesn't mean you can perform under pressure in the studio or live gig.

    Tell you what, I won't advise you on what you actually do for a living. And you guys can quit pretending to be so hip with what you think is real music.
    Funny a couple of you wont even post what your occupation really is. I'm not making fun of anyone for making a living at doing whatever.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Just as Ive said in previous posts Amateur Wannabes posting opinions they have little real first hand experience in. As I've said over and over unless you did it for a living for quite a bit of time and had to survive. Which means actually performing with others in various scenarios your an amateur.

    That's fine as well, but without that first hand knowledge your opinions are limited in scope and depth. And wether you admit it or not , you would fail miserably in many musical situations. Just cause you understand theory doesn't mean you apply it well. Just cause you studied reading doesn't mean you can perform under pressure in the studio or live gig.

    Tell you what, I won't advise you on what you actually do for a living. And you guys can quit pretending to be so hip with what you think is real music.
    Funny a couple of you wont even post what your occupation really is. I'm not making fun of anyone for making a living at doing whatever.
    I can't tell if you are a troll or someone who is projecting in retrospect your disappointment with the "official" credentials of theory and reading.

  14. #63

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    I have had world class players be complimentary about my playing (saying, perhaps, more about their graciousness than my skills). I've also had local guys who rarely gig be insulting.

    We're all musicians at different levels. Disparaging somebody else ... well, what does that really say?

  15. #64

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    Shoot this thread, already.

  16. #65

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    Again what do you guys do for a living? You seem to be reluctant to answer the question ? I'm not judging people who are amateurs , just those who act like they are pros when they have no experience.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Just as Ive said in previous posts Amateur Wannabes posting opinions they have little real first hand experience in. As I've said over and over unless you did it for a living for quite a bit of time and had to survive. Which means actually performing with others in various scenarios your an amateur.

    That's fine as well, but without that first hand knowledge your opinions are limited in scope and depth. And wether you admit it or not , you would fail miserably in many musical situations. Just cause you understand theory doesn't mean you apply it well. Just cause you studied reading doesn't mean you can perform under pressure in the studio or live gig.

    Tell you what, I won't advise you on what you actually do for a living. And you guys can quit pretending to be so hip with what you think is real music.
    Funny a couple of you wont even post what your occupation really is. I'm not making fun of anyone for making a living at doing whatever.
    Janitor.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov

    How can I do that? .. I can because I and schmucks like me are the ones that fed you for all those years as an musician that you're so proud of .. Which you blatantly ignore.
    no need to bad-mouth a whole profession just because of one troll.

    pros like me work hard for their living and do not need to be fed by schmucks.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Just an attempt to lighten things up a bit .. originally I wrote people, but given Jads tone of disgust vs. the non-professionals here I went with schmucks thus entering his world of reference.
    so we musicians are "fed" by people? are you sure you're an economist?

  20. #69

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    Can’t understand why the theremin isn’t more popular.


  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So a couple of you who call my posts narcisstic and negative, and I'm unwilling to change. Interesting but I've played very style of music that makes money and then some
    Pop, Jazz Standards, Rock, Blues, Country old and newer, Reggae, Latin, Mexican , Brazilian, Cuban, Worrship old and Praise, Some limited African styles,etc.

    I've played bars , large and small, as well as concerts, and Orchestra Hall, Churhes, Mega, and small. Black and White Christian , Synagogues, festivals big and small
    With National Artists and local artists. Done national and local jingles, National and local acts. T.V. shows and Radio Shows

    I think that's pretty willing to change to earn a living! There comes a time wnen you dont get called because theres a new guard that mainly gets the calls. I did that in my time as well, and replaced someone else. I'm not bitter about younger players taking the work. But it has nothing to do with skills other than looking and willing to hang with the Hip Crowd. Not interested any longer.

    Again I've put my credentials to show where my opinions come from. I'm not an armchair quarterback. That's why I keep asking what do you guys do for a living?
    I would hesitate to be so opinionated if I didn't do this for a living for over 45 years. If I wasn't opinionated by this point, I'd say it would be a miracle. And the same goes for anyone who has worked the same field for over 40 years!

    So what's your story?
    It doesn't sound like you are much of a jazz guitarist. By jazz I mean small combo gigs with pro level jazz musicians. Am I right?
    Last edited by Tal_175; 06-10-2020 at 06:29 AM.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Again what do you guys do for a living? You seem to be reluctant to answer the question ? I'm not judging people who are amateurs , just those who act like they are pros when they have no experience.
    All pros started as amateurs. The Latin root for amateur is "amas"; in English, love. As I have 10 years on you as a professional musician AND performer and sometime teacher at some major music schools, I'm afraid your rant is not taking into account the thousands of young "amateurs" who are becoming tomorrow's professionals in the music industry. Performers, producers, engineers, composers, arrangers, conductors, etc.

    There is a surplus of young talents vying for fewer and fewer performer opportunities, and your complaints about them not swinging is absolute rubbish. You're a miserable curmudgeon, making yourself more unhappy as you give up and give in to your negativity. I have 55 years on the boards, and my audiences often include a table full of young guitarists coming to catch a little of what we pros do and how we do it, as well as old codgers looking to hear melodic, passionate, swinging versions of their favorite tunes. You have closed your mind, that's a real shame. By the way, it's now the 21st century. You should join us here.

  23. #72

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    I was a CPA, had to work really hard and long hours for decades at something I didn't enjoy much, that's why it's called work. I'm retired, finacialy secure, won't have to be a parasite feeding from the government troughs. So what, why does any of that matter? Are you happy now jads57?

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaxJaxon
    let me see if this makes sense. A performer plays in fromt of people. But a musician dosent have to, to be one. I don't see where reading music has much to do with either one.
    Hi, J,
    So, using your logic, how long would it take a new/prospective member of a group(performer) ,who doesn't read music, to learn their repertoire if the band does 3-45 minute sets of music(no repeats)? And, what if some are originals? I've known a few musicians in my life, mostly pianists, who can play hundreds of songs from memory. I've never been in that class. I need the charts.
    Secondly, I'm certain there are some "musicians" who don't perform and play for their own pleasure. However, it is a natural instinct when one achieves an advanced level of musicianship that they WANT TO PERFORM. Don't ask for the psychology of this other than it is a natural sequence of events. Thanks for your reply.
    Good playing . . . Marinero

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Have to agree. That's unprofessional.
    Yes, largely true . . .but you'd have to be THERE to understand my decision. It was like a scene out of Blue Velvet. Good playing . . . Marinero

  26. #75

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    "1st class musician: Those who perform and compose un-compromised sophisticated art music as the only source of income and earn 100K+ (no teaching and other BS)." Tal

    Hi, T,
    100K for a Jazzer? This certainly must be in an alternate reality! Remember Bobby Broom's great letter to JGF lamenting his inability to even make a living playing music? How many here play at his level and have his experience?
    Good playing . . . Marinero