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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    100k is not that unusual, my friend's daughter is two years out of college with an undergraduate degree, is an RN (registered nurse) and with her overtime pay is making about 100K, and there is somewhere around 3 million RN's in the U.S.

    I tried to make a living at music in the late 70s early 80s, working that hard to scrape by at or near the poverty level makes absolutely no sense to me. I didn't enjoy the hassle of being in and out of gigging bands anyways, I think grinding away as a CPA is more enjoyable than that. Do I respect musicians that make it as a professional musician, maybe a little. Do I respect nurses more, absolutely.


    I thought so ... In other words the atmosphere here should be lighthearted, joyous and one of common interests and us being comrades doing something we love cos no one is in it to get rich.

    Instead of one of elitism .. Elitism might be relevant for the few of us that are in stiff competition for one of those rare lifetime positions at an university, but for the rest of us?

    Thanks fep ... greatly appreciate your post!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Wow where to start answering some of the above posts? Apparently didn't read what I've posted about styles of music I play. I do play Jazz which encompasses Standards from Duke Ellington, George Gershwin, Great American Songbook etc to Miles Davis compositions Solar, Green in blue, John Coltrane s Naima, Thelonius Monk compositions, to more modern Freddie Hubbard Red Clay, Herbie Hancock Tell Me a Bedtime Story.

    I also have played many Latin Bossa amd Samba songs, a bit of Puerto Rican Bomba , Cuban, etc.
    This was all learned along the way performing gigs with many different singers and instrumentalists. One great lesson was playing with Estaire Godinez Latin Percussionist. I realized how lame my feel was to playing Bosses and Sambas on simpler material such as Girl From Ipanema. This lesson was learned over and over by great musicians from different styles who where great musicians.

    You can't learn this in school or book, video,etc. And this IS WHAT I'm talking about in these posts. Amateurs DON'T have time on the bandstand. I was lucky to live in an age of gigging 6 nights a week. And along the way is how you really learn from other musicians and situations. Just like any profession, experience is key!

    And again only 2 of you have said what you do for a living. I appreciate your response!
    But it's a couple of the most opinionated posters who won't say what they do. This is exactly the type of person who poses as an expert on a subject they have no or little actual experience in. And again I'm just a guitarist who made a very modest living at best. I'm in no way bragging about my level other than as a Journeyman Musician.

  4. #103

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    At the moment there are no gigs, so it’s all a bit of a moot point what anyone does for a living. we all have to adapt and survive.

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    And again only 2 of you have said what you do for a living. I appreciate your response!

    Cheers Jads .. Don't take anything I say as particularly personal or offensive ... It's just the internets and I post to clear my own head more than anything

  6. #105

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    Marinero, to your questions about reading charts vs memorizing songs. Charts are always great to have, but I try to commit the songs to memory so I can listen to other musicians better and interact with them more freely.

    Also playing the repertoire on the gig night after night really helps. But unless you are incredibly lucky to work with the same band on a consistent gig. This becomes much harder and charts really help. If you happen to have photographic memory and great or perfect pitch then it's a different ballgame. And I've run into a couple of these people over the years.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Wow where to start answering some of the above posts? Apparently didn't read what I've posted about styles of music I play. I do play Jazz which encompasses Standards from Duke Ellington, George Gershwin, Great American Songbook etc to Miles Davis compositions Solar, Green in blue, John Coltrane s Naima, Thelonius Monk compositions, to more modern Freddie Hubbard Red Clay, Herbie Hancock Tell Me a Bedtime Story.

    I also have played many Latin Bossa amd Samba songs, a bit of Puerto Rican Bomba , Cuban, etc.
    This was all learned along the way performing gigs with many different singers and instrumentalists. One great lesson was playing with Estaire Godinez Latin Percussionist. I realized how lame my feel was to playing Bosses and Sambas on simpler material such as Girl From Ipanema. This lesson was learned over and over by great musicians from different styles who where great musicians.

    You can't learn this in school or book, video,etc. And this IS WHAT I'm talking about in these posts. Amateurs DON'T have time on the bandstand. I was lucky to live in an age of gigging 6 nights a week. And along the way is how you really learn from other musicians and situations. Just like any profession, experience is key!

    And again only 2 of you have said what you do for a living. I appreciate your response!
    But it's a couple of the most opinionated posters who won't say what they do. This is exactly the type of person who poses as an expert on a subject they have no or little actual experience in. And again I'm just a guitarist who made a very modest living at best. I'm in no way bragging about my level other than as a Journeyman Musician.
    You seem to be the only one who poses as an expert and a narcissist (your words) and considers himself above everybody else. I've not seen anybody else who posts with such condescending attitude (not in this thread).

    Also words are just hot air. If you think you are above everybody else who don't do music as their sole income, please put a video of yourself playing jazz and blow us away. No more unverifiable empty words.

    In my experience when someone posts with such grandiose attitude, they are delusional about their place in relation to others and they don't have the goods to back it up.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 06-10-2020 at 04:39 PM.

  8. #107

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    I played in a semi-pro band for a couple of years in my spare time, just after I started work. We played pop/rock covers, we rehearsed a lot and we were quite good, with a repertoire of 60 tunes. We got quite a lot of gigs locally, but mainly on Saturdays as we all had day jobs.

    As I recall the most money we ever got was £250 for a Christmas gig at a hospital social club, but that had to go round 5 of us (this was in the early 1980s). I got tired of driving home knackered in the early hours and unloading amps and stuff. At that rate there was no way I would consider music as a profession.

    In any case, by that stage I had become obsessed with only playing jazz, and I knew there was no way I could play that for a living, since my jazz skills were zero at that point.

  9. #108

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    Still waiting for you to post what you do for a livingTal 175?

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Still waiting for you to post what you do for a livingTal 175?
    And I'm still waiting for you to provide more than empty words to back up your attitude of being better than musicians who don't do music as their sole income.

    Look I can think of two other forum members who had similar condescending, know at all attitudes at times towards the forum membership in general (none of them has posted in this thread). To their defence they posted many instances of their performances for others to view. To some maybe they didn't back up their attitudes with their skills and to others they did. At least they didn't need to hide it.

    You are the only member I know who claims expertise over others and considers himself the "real" musician. Admits being narcissistic and negative towards others but believes to have earned it. Yet has nothing to show for other than posting hot air.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 06-10-2020 at 02:03 PM.

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    O.K. One of my pet peeves--how does one consider themselves a musician if they can't read music? I occasionally surf Youtube for songs/players/ideas and occasionally take a look at some of the guitar "lesson" sites. ...
    Reading music is not a necessary condition for being a musician. Of course for some types of music it’s essential (e.g., classical), and for many other types of music (including jazz) it’s very helpful. Your complaint seems to about bad teachers.

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "Too bad we can't just sit down and jam. That tells the truth about musicianship: the ability to listen and integrate into unknown material." Thump

    Hi, T,
    So, for the sake of argument, would you use that standard for, say, Vladimir Horowitz, Andre Segovia, Pablo Casals,or Itzhak Pearlman? And, would that tell you their level of musicianship? Let's sit down and jam? Good playing . . . Marinero
    It's a fair point. But I'm only applying what I value in musicianship, just as Jads is applying his. Why one approach is "better" than the other is exactly the point I've been arguing through my engagement in this thread. We each approach our mistress in different ways. So long as the lovin' is good, you've got a healthy relationship.

    To answer you directly, of course those guys are great musicians. However, denigrating any musician for the musical milieu they work in is to my mind silly. My point in writing what you quoted was to point out that someone who's proud in an overweening manner of his own musicianship -- to the point of making his own approach definitional -- can be brought up a-cropper simply by having to make music in a different setting, format, style, and so on.

    Rather than worry about whether Joe Blow can do what I do as well as I do, I'd rather enjoy what they do on its own terms, understanding that my preferences in music do not define what is and isn't musicianship.

    For the record, I can read staff, painfully slowly. I've learnt plenty of songs that way. I've learnt plenty by ear. I've had folks show me songs. I don't care what it takes, if you make good music come out of your speaker -- or horn, or piano -- you're a musician in my book. Being able to read or write staff doesn't translate to instrumental sensitivity that translates into tapping feet, dancing bodies, or ruminant listening. Those things come from a musician who is not only playing the song, but letting the song play him.

  13. #112

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    IMO there is no level of expertise as a player which justifies being condescending to those you see as lesser players.

  14. #113

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    I'll comment on the pro vs amateur issue.

    I know several pro players with amazing skills who have given up trying to make a living playing. One I'm thinking of has a Grammy, last time I saw him was at Dizzy's in NYC, has done multiple European tours and plays multiple instruments at a pro level.

    Then he had a baby and decided to switch to software engineering.

    I haven't had a chance to ask him why, but I'm guessing it's the amount of money, the security and the travel.

    He's not the only one. Making a living as a performing musician is tough even without Covid. In this area, it seems like the top players also teach and some have other income streams, like merchandise sales, side-gigs doing audio engineering and so forth.

  15. #114

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    Again answering questions with questions Tal 175? I've listed my credentials and you certainly can Google my name is John Della Selva, and I live in St. Paul,Mn.

    I've worked in theTwin Cities by choice for the last 40 years. You should find me in Youtube videos under the following that I am aware of.
    Jay Bee and the Routine, Doug Maynard Band, Jose James and Moments Notice,
    Steve Clark and the Working Stiffs. Soul Collective with Debbie Duncan and Cynthia Johnson. Possibly Prudence Johnson, Willie Murphy at Famous Daves club, Dr. Mambas Combo, Men Eat Out at the Whiskey Junction, Bruce Henry,

    I do not post videos myself or promoting myself. Sorry not interested in self promotion. I have recorded with Alexander O Neil on his first album, The Jets, others as well you can look them up as well.

    Okay now your turn what do you do?

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Again answering questions with questions Tal 175? I've listed my credentials and you certainly can Google my name is John Della Selva, and I live in St. Paul,Mn.

    I've worked in theTwin Cities by choice for the last 40 years. You should find me in Youtube videos under the following that I am aware of.
    Jay Bee and the Routine, Doug Maynard Band, Jose James and Moments Notice,
    Steve Clark and the Working Stiffs. Soul Collective with Debbie Duncan and Cynthia Johnson. Possibly Prudence Johnson, Willie Murphy at Famous Daves club, Dr. Mambas Combo, Men Eat Out at the Whiskey Junction, Bruce Henry,

    I do not post videos myself or promoting myself. Sorry not interested in self promotion. I have recorded with Alexander O Neil on his first album, The Jets, others as well you can look them up as well.

    Okay now your turn what do you do?
    You are not interested in self promotion? Really?

    Dude it's none of your business what I do for a living. This is not a contest. I'm not making extra ordinary claims about where I stand as a musician and put down others. I have nothing to prove to you. It's your burden not mine. Comes with the attitude and trolling the thread.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 06-10-2020 at 05:31 PM.

  17. #116
    This dialogue has one thing in common that must not be forgotten: musicians/performers of all levels, whether professionals or hobbyists, have something that 99% of the world's population doesn't have(IMO) . . . a desire to speak through music and to strive for the illusive quest for Beauty. And, I think the passions and sensitivities shown here by us are illustrative of this notion. I have had a very interesting life,by most peoples standards, rubbing shoulders with novelists, poets, visual artists, sculptors,as well as successful creative entrepreneurs, and I can say ,without hesitation, that musicians, by far, are the most interesting people I know. I have no animus for anyone here and will continue to enjoy these interesting and useful perspectives that challenge how we perceive/reveal ourselves and our music. I hope others share my feelings.
    Good playing . . . Marinero

  18. #117

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    But it does share the common thing as well I can't stand about the business. Wannabes and Posers who are I interested in being famous or at least latching on to that aspect of the business.

    That has really become the predominant aspect of music nowadays due to YouTube self promotion and getting advertisers.
    It use to be you only had sleazy booking agents ,club owners, and record A& R types to contend with. Along with the guitarists out to steal your gig,lol!

    Tal 175 your afraid to say what you do for a living ? I'm not insulting other occupation at all. And as Ive repeatedly stated I'm no authority on other occupations except for eating Pizza,Lol!

    And again I've no condescension as far as amateurs. It's just when they pose as authorities on subjects they know enough to be dangerous!

  19. #118

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    I'm an ironing board cover salesman.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    But it does share the common thing as well I can't stand about the business. Wannabes and Posers who are I interested in being famous or at least latching on to that aspect of the business.

    That has really become the predominant aspect of music nowadays due to YouTube self promotion and getting advertisers.
    It use to be you only had sleazy booking agents ,club owners, and record A& R types to contend with. Along with the guitarists out to steal your gig,lol!

    Tal 175 your afraid to say what you do for a living ? I'm not insulting other occupation at all. And as Ive repeatedly stated I'm no authority on other occupations except for eating Pizza,Lol!

    And again I've no condescension as far as amateurs. It's just when they pose as authorities on subjects they know enough to be dangerous!
    Oh the irony. Not one person but you are describing yourself as an authority, declaring every body else lowly amateurs and doing self promotion.
    People who aren't full time career musicians are just dishonest, dangerous posers if they form an opinion based on their experiences or want to get hired for a gig no matter how many years they been working on their craft. Right.
    But to be fair you did warn us that you were a narcissist
    Last edited by Tal_175; 06-10-2020 at 08:34 PM.

  21. #120

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    This probably been a poor communication on my part. But dont you agree we all base our opinions on our experiences both positive and negative as well.
    And the more experience we have gives us more information to help base those on.

    As a Pro in any business this is the person who,like them or not can give you an informed opinion . A person who hasn't the experience in any profession has limited knowledge on which to base their opinions

    I say this because many spout off on subjects they don't have enough experience in to make informed and educated opinions on. Now wether we agree on taste style etc. That certainly is a personal choice.

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    This probably been a poor communication on my part. But dont you agree we all base our opinions on our experiences both positive and negative as well.
    And the more experience we have gives us more information to help base those on.

    As a Pro in any business this is the person who,like them or not can give you an informed opinion . A person who hasn't the experience in any profession has limited knowledge on which to base their opinions

    I say this because many spout off on subjects they don't have enough experience in to make informed and educated opinions on. Now wether we agree on taste style etc. That certainly is a personal choice.
    I played the same circuit as the Beatles.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I'm an ironing board cover salesman.
    At last, somebody who does something useful.

  24. #123

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    I put tiny baseball caps on gerbils. They come off again very quickly which means I am constantly employed.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I put tiny baseball caps on gerbils. They come off again very quickly which means I am constantly employed.
    Post-AI job creation scheme.

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I put tiny baseball caps on gerbils. They come off again very quickly which means I am constantly employed.


  27. #126

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    "I don't know anything about music. In my line, you don't have to." -- Elvis Presley

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Post-AI job creation scheme.
    People call it make-work, but let me ask, why would you not want gerbils to wear tiny baseball caps, eh? Answer me that!

  29. #128

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    I would just like to point out that the "performers" jads57 is so pissed at don't give a single sh*t about his opinion of them, nor can he shame them into measuring up to his standards, which would certainly lower their incomes. Said the blind man as he pissed into the wind "It's all coming back to me!"

  30. #129

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    So my apologies to insulting all those here. But in my defense I've become the Cranky Old Man who yells "Get off of my Lawn!"

    Hard to do a job for 45 years for low dough,etc. And then see it become nothing more than an AP or loop that people use as a basically a video game entertainment.
    But life isn't fair and people dont care how much work it takes to become a musician. But technology has always done that and now its our turn as professional musicians to be replaced and relegated to the past.

    My dad was correct when he said music is a not great vocation but a hobby.

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    People call it make-work, but let me ask, why would you not want gerbils to wear tiny baseball caps, eh? Answer me that!
    Musician or Performer(?) Rant-52c2f2fa-c2ac-4033-aa14-988a5e84f605-jpg

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So my apologies to insulting all those here. But in my defense I've become the Cranky Old Man who yells "Get off of my Lawn!"

    Hard to do a job for 45 years for low dough,etc. And then see it become nothing more than an AP or loop that people use as a basically a video game entertainment.
    But life isn't fair and people dont care how much work it takes to become a musician. But technology has always done that and now its our turn as professional musicians to be replaced and relegated to the past.

    My dad was correct when he said music is a not great vocation but a hobby.
    If that makes you feel better, I've actually put more time, effort and passion into my training as a musician than my occupation that pays the bills. Which partly contributed me never finishing my Phd

    I've turned down lucrative career paths because I prioritize being able to focus on music over everything else. Music has ruined my life So don't assume that people who don't live on income from music are just short cutters and haven't put many years of hard work that required a lot of sacrifices.

    Yeah OK I lied about my job earlier. I run a shower curtain ring repair business.

  33. #132

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    I'm also a part time cockfight referee.

  34. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Musician or Performer(?) Rant-52c2f2fa-c2ac-4033-aa14-988a5e84f605-jpg
    amateur hour. Inappropriate rodent headwear you see. With the right training you’d never make that mistake.

  35. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I'm also a part time cockfight referee.
    And our members should know, Tal,
    There are no referees in a cockfight . . . and therein lies the humor! Good playing . . . Marinero



  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    And our members should know, Tal,
    There are no referees in a cockfight . . . and therein lies the humor! Good playing . . . Marinero

    Good call. I actually never watched a cockfight. I'm a sissy vegetarian.

  37. #136

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    I think I (and everyone else) should know better than to weigh in on a post specifically labeled as a rant. By definition, you can't argue with it.

    I'm an electrical engineer for a pharma company, to get that out of the way. That means I still have a job now, which sadly, many musicians and people who work at venues, don't.

    It also means I don't have to do paying gigs and take money away from the musicians that DO need it. Did you ever see a movie called "The Gig" with Warren Vache'? It's about a bunch of amateurs who get a gig, only the bass player is a pro. Anyway, I don't play out much, but I've done just enough to be glad I didn't make it my life's work.

    Thanks to a good public school music education and private teachers, I sight read well. So when i started playing guitar with a non-profit community big band, they were impressed I could read the charts. No big deal, I don't even practice them much.

    Most of the local gigs around here are classic rock, singer-songwriter, blues, bluegrass. Nobody (almost) uses sheetmusic. The vast majority are not full-time pros, either.

    Anyway, it's not the best musicians who get the gig, it's the musicians who are best at getting gigs!

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    amateur hour. Inappropriate rodent headwear you see. With the right training you’d never make that mistake.
    At least the hats stay on my gerbils.

  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I'm also a part time cockfight referee.
    So THAT'S why you hang around here so much...

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    At least the hats stay on my gerbils.
    You. Just. Don’t. Get. It.

  41. #140
    "Anyway, it's not the best musicians who get the gig, it's the musicians who are best at getting gigs!" JGin


    Unless you're famous or have a big following . . . no one drops a gig in your lap. I moved to a new area 1100 miles from my old home base for 38 years and do not have the gigs/following I had previously. I do strictly solo gigs and am rebuilding my customer base. This requires knocking on doors, talking to prospective venues and negotiating price and conditions---all of which take time and energy. And, I may find a prospective venue who is willing to hire me but they don't want to pay my base price--$75.00 per 45 minutes. So, I go to the next door. Eventually, if you put in the time, you'll get a fair paying gig. However, I'm a single act and I can't imagine how difficult it would be to find gigs with a trio/quartet, etc.and get paid fairly. Now, after the impact of CV, many venues have taken a big hit financially and won't spend the money until the crowds return. What a difference a day makes! Good playing . . . Marinero



  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    And again I've no condescension as far as amateurs.
    You might want to fine-tune your delivery, then -- because you certainly come across this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    It's just when they pose as authorities on subjects they know enough to be dangerous!
    You may be an authority on making a living playing smaller gigs (I didn't recognize one name you dropped, including your own), but that is, once again, asserted authority about the biz, not about music itself. Indeed, it seems you're unable to separate the two aspects in your thinking.

    That sort of mistake really undercuts any statements you might make about artistry, because the business of music is not the art of music.

  43. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    At least the hats stay on my gerbils.
    Is this code for something?

  44. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So my apologies to insulting all those here. But in my defense I've become the Cranky Old Man who yells "Get off of my Lawn!"

    Hard to do a job for 45 years for low dough,etc. And then see it become nothing more than an AP or loop that people use as a basically a video game entertainment.
    But life isn't fair and people dont care how much work it takes to become a musician. But technology has always done that and now its our turn as professional musicians to be replaced and relegated to the past.

    My dad was correct when he said music is a not great vocation but a hobby.
    But a distinct feature of a Jazz gig is that there is no replacement for a performance. There is no "Jazz jukebox" that can read the audience and band, improvise and interact.
    Which reminds me, I need to practice, have a show this weekend.

  45. #144

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    I was a performer but the mafia, rich women and hostesses conspired against me and ruined my career in music.
    I just saw a movie last night on Amazon Prime that goes into some detail on it. It's called- Death Ride to Osaka. AKA- Girls of the White Orchid. It's one of those movies that's so bad, it's good.
    Yeah, I used to be in show business but it didn't suit me.

  46. #145

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    Are DJs going to spin protest songs in the new world order? I would say, yes.

  47. #146

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    So, when I think this through, I end up here.

    We all post our resumes. Every gig, every recording.

    Then, we vote on who has the best resume.

    And, then, everybody else is expelled from the forum, because they don't have the background to talk to the top guy.

    Or, maybe they can stay, but they can't post.

    Is that the idea?

    Here's what I think: No two of us sound alike. Therefore, each person has something to say, if nothing else, at least about his own sound.

  48. #147

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    I got fired from my janitor job at the Red Rock Casino in 2018. I needed heart surgery. I'm retired from everything now and I've had dozens of jobs. Music was full time for about 4-5 years and that was long ago. Needless to say, music can be a roller coaster ride. In my experience it was secretive and seedy.

  49. #148

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    I grew up in a professional musical family. My father was a working professional opera singer (NY City Opera) who got a number of modern opera roles because he could read music, an uncommon skill at that time (Ezio Pinza claimed that he couldn't read music). Nowadays, of course, it would be difficult to find a professional opera singer who can't read music. My mother, a pianist, was the go-to accompanist for musical theatre auditions in New York City because she could sight-read anything. She also had perfect pitch, and could play anything she had heard a couple of times by ear. My siblings and I started piano lessons at the age of 7, and we performed à la The Trapp Family, singing, at various functions in the suburbs of NYC.

    I studied French horn and theory/solfége at Juilliard in the prep division (in the building that is now home to Manhattan School of Music), and started teaching myself guitar at the age of about 12. I was a bicycle ride away from Rev. Gary Davis, and a subway ride from Dave Van Ronk, both of whom were teaching anyone who showed up for $5/hour, but I had no idea they existed; it never occurred to my parents or myself that I might take guitar lessons!

    I ceased my private horn lessons at the age of 16 (had no aptitude, really, or desire), but I went to Oberlin College so I could take advantage of the conservatory, where I continued my music theory classes. I also used the conservatory practice rooms to get a little better technique on keyboards (I had quit piano at 11, when I took up the french horn). After graduation, I played guitar in a bluegrass band in the Bay area for a living. It wasn't much of a living, as we made almost no money, but it was all the money I had, so technically, I was supporting myself as a guitar player.

    At Oberlin, I had gotten involved in the theatre, and at 24 I decided to get an MFA in acting and directing; in my last year, I managed to get a part in a show that eventually made its way to Off-Broadway, and I got my Equity card. Two years later I was in my first Broadway show. I was able to support myself during dry spells playing standup bass in a bluegrass trio (I arranged the 3-part harmonies, as I had in the Bay area band). In these groups, I was the only one who could read (and write) music. I also arranged the vocals and some of the musical arrangements for a group I was in that eventually became a Broadway show (I had left the group by the time it went to Broadway).

    In one of the Broadway musicals I was in, I understudied the bandleader, who played guitar in the band and had a speaking role. For that job, I had to join the Musicians Union, and I had to pass a test to do so – I think I had to play a scale on the guitar, and read a simple lead sheet, or something like that. The rest of the band, who came to the show as a band, were from Nashville; they learned the songs in rehearsal by writing charts in Nashville shorthand, dictated by the bass player, who read the charts written by the veteran Broadway musical director. By the way, I was one of the very few in the whole cast who could read music.

    After 20 years in the theatre, doing music now and then, I became a professional Macintosh computer support person. After 20 years of that, I returned to what I loved: playing guitar. I had a guitar trio, for which I did arrangements of American Songbook standards and other songs I liked. We gigged some, for very little money.

    So I am a trained musician. I have mostly played with non-trained players, who can't read music. Many of them were far better players than I, who even after decades playing the guitar am very shy on technique, except as a rhythm player. I am, however, an excellent performer – I have a lot of training and experience at that.

    I think that the dichotomy of "musician or performer?" is a false one; I would prefer, Marinaro, if you could come up with a better distinction between players who can read vs. players who can't, since I tend to agree with those here who classify many, many players and singers who can't (or couldn't) read music as musicians.

    I remember Eubie Blake saying once that he wrote a piece of music, and corrected himself, saying he composed it, since at that time he coudn't read or write music. He learned how to do it after he already had a career. You can't convince me that he was only a musician after he learned to read music.
    Last edited by Ukena; 06-12-2020 at 07:20 AM.

  50. #149

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    Sounds like an obituary...

  51. #150
    "I remember Eubie Blake saying once that he wrote a piece of music, and corrected himself, saying he composed it, since at that time he coudn't read or write music. He learned how to do it after he already had a career. You can't convince me that he was only a musician after he learned to read music." Ukena


    Hi, U,
    Interesting bio, however, the above statement leads me to believe you haven't read much or all of the previous 3 pages of comments. So, for a quick rehash, in my world, Eubie was a great performer/artist much as Louis Armstrong was before he learned to read music to further promote his career. Reading music does not make a great performer or even an artist and many here have mentioned the names of Wes, Eubie, etc., however I just learned that Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder could read music in Braille. I think some here have assumed that "performer" is a pejorative term and nothing could be farther from the truth. It merely states, in my world, that if you do not read music, it is a liability in learning new tunes quickly or playing with a group that has their "book" charted if they need to add a new member. I have never played with a musical genius however, but have played with some outstanding players/musicians. Many could read music and some couldn't. It didn't effect their talent. Good playing . . . Marinero