The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    There are many ways to determine whether a person has musical talent or not, and a mere two of them are:


    1. When practicing makes one noticeably better in a reasonably short period of time,

    2. When one performs a substantial piece of music for a music master or good music teacher (a teacher who does not hesitate to be critical) and the teacher gives them sincere high praise for their performance.


    That said, how much talent varies with individuals, as does hard work.

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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    There are many ways to determine whether a person has musical talent or not, and a mere two of them are:


    1. When practicing makes one noticeably better in a reasonably short period of time,

    2. When one performs a substantial piece of music for a music master or good music teacher (a teacher who does not hesitate to be critical) and the teacher gives them sincere high praise for their performance.


    That said, how much talent varies with individuals, as does hard work.
    That is similar to what a (programming) teacher once told me. I share his opinion that 'talent' is a combination of being highly interested in a subject and having a great memory.

    But as the topic starter wrote, this is not a topic for defining talent. Having said that (and having a really bad memory), I am reading 'The infinite art of improvisation' and the book approaches the subject from different viewpoints, age, discipline, physicality, memory and cognitive skills.

    I'm late for practice.

  4. #78

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    The way I see it after being a pro musician for over 40 years. Wannabes and Amateurs dont seem to have inhibitions when it comes to getting on stage or posting their offerings to the rest of us.

    Now if it's for critique purposes I somewhat understand. But I generally feel it's more about their personal ego gratification mostly!

    Before the Music Biz went down the tubes and the IPhone and YouTube replaced it. You actually had to go and try and audition or sit in. The bar was much higher, and you usually got the Bums RUSH if you were no good!
    All I can say now is God Help us from all the self proclaimed Wannabes here and in most Forums.

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    The way I see it after being a pro musician for over 40 years. Wannabes and Amateurs dont seem to have inhibitions when it comes to getting on stage or posting their offerings to the rest of us.

    Now if it's for critique purposes I somewhat understand. But I generally feel it's more about their personal ego gratification mostly!

    Before the Music Biz went down the tubes and the IPhone and YouTube replaced it. You actually had to go and try and audition or sit in. The bar was much higher, and you usually got the Bums RUSH if you were no good!
    All I can say now is God Help us from all the self proclaimed Wannabes here and in most Forums.
    That's a pretty shitty and demeaning attitude. I was golf pro for 10 years. Made my living teaching and playing the game and never looked down on those who couldn't play at my level. Also, I'd never go on a golf forum and try to shame them. Played with plenty of guys who had "ego Hdcp's" where they said their average score was lower than it was. YouTube is filled with bad golf instruction now, but the cream rises to the top. The golf forums make this place like a kiddie park. Guys who give all kinds of advice on swing and equipment but cant play to a high level. Doesnt matter, they love it, have fun and keep the game going. It's the only sport where there are more teachers than players, as the saying goes. I tell ya, I'd rather play golf with a few guys who weren't good and had good attitudes and love the game than a bunch of "pros". Most of the time they love the game more.

  6. #80

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    It's quite the opposite. I hear that there used to be so many gigs and so much demand for musicians that anyone who wanted to, even kids, could get gigs if they practised for a year or two.

    Now paid gigs are more competitive. Guitarist especially are more skilled and educated. Good ones can still get gigs, but some of the mediocre players of the previous generation who can no longer compete at the current musicianship levels are unemployed and bitter.

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMgolf66
    That's a pretty shitty and demeaning attitude. I was golf pro for 10 years. Made my living teaching and playing the game and never looked down on those who couldn't play at my level.
    As an aside, just broke 80 for the first time today, I got a 78 on a par 70, from the back tees at an altitude of 7,000 feet. And I'm 62 years old, taken me a long time to break 80, ha. I play Torrey Pines usually once a week, I have a bunch of scores of 80,81,82,83, but just never seemed to be able to break 80.

  8. #82

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    I have a gift for improvisation. No. Really. And verbosity.

    Still, I'm not a very good musician. As a career I chose to be a good engineer instead. Now, in my 60's, I'm trying to learn to be a jazz guitar player. Something I love but will never achieve at anything approaching actual competence. That's OK. Doing it anyway. As for talent..

    Maybe some view of 'talent' in music could be derived from the book 'Emotional Intelligence' which listed improvisation, reading/sight reading, and the ability to copy by ear as separate and distinct types of intelligence. And like intelligence in general, we get bits and pieces. Though in my experience, musicians often get one and have to work for the other two. And then possibly there is some nugget of truth in the steps of mastery: unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence, unconscious competence, mastery. In that context you take what you're born with, apply personality traits like dogged persistence, a love of minutia, and artistic self awareness to move along the path.

    Fine. Still doesn't explain why music resonates down to the depths of our being. And why we, those reading this, feel we have to learn and play. Like lemmings drawn to the view. And art has to be shared. To the disgust of the arrogant or the support of the enthusiasts (or sympathetic). Just don't forget how important self awareness is. There is an audience for amateurs (like me) but it is not the same audience or situations that can be addressed by the those farther on their way.

  9. #83

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    The consent of never being proficient at jazz peaked for me this year when I committed to a full years instruction with a teacher. It was a terrible experience. A big factor in me not hanging here so much anymore.

    I stoped playing for maybe a month thinking about all the time I have put in to play jazz, this was the year I was gonna crack it, I was practicing heaps and yet the light at the end of the tunnel was going out.

    At the start of this virus crap I bought a beautiful acoustic guitar thinking if I end up unemployed at least I will have a nice acoustic to play. It was like a magnet and sucked me in.

    I have now stopped the pursuit of being a 'jazz guitarist'. I am focused on song writing and some good stuff is coming out. The stuff that comes out is odd in that it can be a old fashioned Travis Picking John Pine tune (maybe all those westerns I listened to as a kid), an acoustic instrumental, pop rock hard rock, lots of Beatles influences are obvious.

    The point being, perhaps we are all much better than we think. I find that when I pick up the 175 now and play a jazz tune I play it so much better, much more expressive, my improvisation is so much more melodic as I have stopped trying to be something now I am just being. I am sure I will write a jazz tune one day it might be an old fashioned Benny Goodman style or a modern Kreisberg style. You never know stuff just comes out.

    What I have found really interesting is that all the early influences from when I was 10 to 25 are in my D&A. These are strengths I can build on. Jazz has helped me understand theory better and fretboard knowledge etc but really if I had of stuck with the Beatles, Paul McCartney, Tom Petty, Randy Rhoads even Johnny Cash (which is kind of what lead me back to this path what is the easiest song I can play and sing, actually it was a Dean Martin Song My Rifle My Pony and Me) and truely understanding their creativity I have no doubt I would be in a better place today musically. Digging into that music there is much more to it, that Dean Martin tune, sure it is simple but the production the layering of whistling, answer and response lyrics the tines etc are masterful and works of art I can achieve and be proud of as even that, to really play it takes a lot of work.

    Rant over. Positive point trying to make is I am sure you are better than you think.

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    The consent of never being proficient at jazz peaked for me this year when I committed to a full years instruction with a teacher. It was a terrible experience. A big factor in me not hanging here so much anymore.

    I stoped playing for maybe a month thinking about all the time I have put in to play jazz, this was the year I was gonna crack it, I was practicing heaps and yet the light at the end of the tunnel was going out.

    At the start of this virus crap I bought a beautiful acoustic guitar thinking if I end up unemployed at least I will have a nice acoustic to play. It was like a magnet and sucked me in.

    I have now stopped the pursuit of being a 'jazz guitarist'. I am focused on song writing and some good stuff is coming out. The stuff that comes out is odd in that it can be a old fashioned Travis Picking John Pine tune (maybe all those westerns I listened to as a kid), an acoustic instrumental, pop rock hard rock, lots of Beatles influences are obvious.

    The point being, perhaps we are all much better than we think. I find that when I pick up the 175 now and play a jazz tune I play it so much better, much more expressive, my improvisation is so much more melodic as I have stopped trying to be something now I am just being. I am sure I will write a jazz tune one day it might be an old fashioned Benny Goodman style or a modern Kreisberg style. You never know stuff just comes out.

    What I have found really interesting is that all the early influences from when I was 10 to 25 are in my D&A. These are strengths I can build on. Jazz has helped me understand theory better and fretboard knowledge etc but really if I had of stuck with the Beatles, Paul McCartney, Tom Petty, Randy Rhoads even Johnny Cash (which is kind of what lead me back to this path what is the easiest song I can play and sing, actually it was a Dean Martin Song My Rifle My Pony and Me) and truely understanding their creativity I have no doubt I would be in a better place today musically. Digging into that music there is much more to it, that Dean Martin tune, sure it is simple but the production the layering of whistling, answer and response lyrics the tines etc are masterful and works of art I can achieve and be proud of as even that, to really play it takes a lot of work.

    Rant over. Positive point trying to make is I am sure you are better than you think.
    Congratulations on being set free from this harsh but beautiful mistress called "Jazz." There is so much music that you can make right now, especially if you can sing well enough.

    We witnessed your passion and the way you really applied yourself. But in the end, you found out that maybe you would be better served playing other music.

    Jazz will still be here for you, but it won't be an obsession as it is for many of us. Maybe you can come back to her, with just a simple song with which you can apply your newfound melodic lines - a song with a leisurely tempo. Then maybe you can speed it up later.

    Jazz will be there for you, but this time on your terms.

  11. #85

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    Crappy Attitude, Sure! But name me another busines where people feel entitled work on your job? You'd be upset if someone came in and tried to perform your tasks,especially when they were totally unprepared and not qualified.

    The new model is I can do anything I think I can,and never mind the experience or quality! Unbelievable to have that kind of bravado, when you suck!

    The gigs are now populated by kids who are selling to other kids and weekend warriors who feel empowered. And while some of that has always been somewhat true. This is the new normal.

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    As an aside, just broke 80 for the first time today, I got a 78 on a par 70, from the back tees at an altitude of 7,000 feet. And I'm 62 years old, taken me a long time to break 80, ha. I play Torrey Pines usually once a week, I have a bunch of scores of 80,81,82,83, but just never seemed to be able to break 80.
    Congratulations!!!

    That is no small feat! With all the advances in equipment and in teaching, the average score is still around 90. Very few ever break 80. ...well done! Coming down the stretch and knowing that it's right there , then pulling it off is rewarding.

    I think part of most of the reason people take on such endeavors such as golf, jazz guitar, etc. Is no matter what your level, every once in a while you "get a taste", no matter how small, of what it's like to do well.
    Last edited by DMgolf66; 08-11-2020 at 10:10 PM.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Crappy Attitude, Sure! But name me another busines where people feel entitled work on your job? You'd be upset if someone came in and tried to perform your tasks,especially when they were totally unprepared and not qualified.

    The new model is I can do anything I think I can,and never mind the experience or quality! Unbelievable to have that kind of bravado, when you suck!

    The gigs are now populated by kids who are selling to other kids and weekend warriors who feel empowered. And while some of that has always been somewhat true. This is the new normal.
    Can't say I disagree with any of this. Though it's been going on probably always. Think of opera singers in the 19th century lamenting that it's how you look to get patronage.

    Still.. it is different now. More tech and fewer venues. That and jazz died a commercial death some decades ago so it's rare to find an audience that can tell the difference. If I were a pro musician I think I would have a crappy attitude as well.

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Crappy Attitude, Sure! But name me another busines where people feel entitled work on your job? You'd be upset if someone came in and tried to perform your tasks,especially when they were totally unprepared and not qualified.

    The new model is I can do anything I think I can,and never mind the experience or quality! Unbelievable to have that kind of bravado, when you suck!

    The gigs are now populated by kids who are selling to other kids and weekend warriors who feel empowered. And while some of that has always been somewhat true. This is the new normal.
    Are you kidding me? Did you not read a word of what I wrote? Go to any driving range and theres a guy telling his buddy how to swing the club and saying it with AUTHORITY! Only endeavor where theres more teachers than players as I said. Jazz guitar doesnt have the market on hubris. EVERYONE thought they could do my job. Didnt bother me. Some would even try to tell me what to teach. Nature of the game, nature of many men in general. Never had this issue with any of ladies I've ever been around.

    I'm sure these kids who "suck" aren't touring with Diana Krall. Same as someone who isn't a great teacher would be teaching PGA Tour professional. For the record, I dont see Tiger Woods or any top notch player or teacher going on any of the golf forums bad mouthing, demeaning or saying anyone "sucks".

  15. #89

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    Okay Jads57, I hear you... but this dead horse keeps getting beaten to death over and over again. Poor horse.

  16. #90

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    You're right fep! I'm just surprised no one cares about the state of music these days. Long as it sells product and can get noticed.

    For me they killed the Goose that played Golden Eggs! The Musicians never enjoyed the credit they truly deserve for helping create all the albums,etc that are now enjoyed by the public.

    Watch any of the documentaries "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" "The Wrecking Crew", "Muscle Shoals" "Memphis American Studios"

  17. #91

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    DMgolf66. Tiger Woods doesn't play local clubs nor did regional Studio Work, Teaching,etc. So the Barriers for the PGA are there already
    Music Biz is a whole different game,sorry to inform you!

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    I've always played for the sheer joy of it. There's nothing like live music. And the best seat in the house is on the bandstand.
    I play with a jazz sextet of excellent musicians. I'm a self taught hack but they keep having me back so I must have some chops. I do know that while I'm playing in a gig with them, each and every time I think to myself, "I have got the best seat in the house". There is really nothing more enjoyable for me than to be surrounded by music. It's heavenly. I have said to the group; "I'd pay to do this for a living"...that's the truth.

  19. #93

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    Beaubs , are you buying drinks or paying these guys to gig with you,LOL !

  20. #94

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    I was and I am convinced that best case my ability to play music is average.
    Years ago I was convinced I never be able to play a standard theme and a solo I could even partially enjoy...

    Now sometimes I enjoy listening to my playing... do not ask what changed :-). Anyway, that is why now I keep playing.

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Beaubs , are you buying drinks or paying these guys to gig with you,LOL !
    Jads57 is going through an episode of Dunning–Kruger effect again, LOL !. He'll come around eventually and say every one should gig and develop as musicians. Just ignore and wait.

  22. #96

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    Absolutely everyone should play music or at least learn to appreciate great Music.

    I attended a clinic long ago where Herb Ellis told the audience. Most of you won't make it! But that's okay you can always enjoy it.
    I don't think he ever envisioned a scenario where amateurs would take over the actual jobs of professionals.

    I do wish I could say something positive and uplifting about the current state of making a living as a professional musician. The truth is you are no longer a guitarist responsible of many tasks of knowing music.

    You are now an Amway Sales Person, Studio Engineer, Computer Specialist who also plays guitar at least enough to get by.

  23. #97

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    “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all”
    my mom was pretty smart.

  24. #98

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    When I was studying with Harry Leahey and told him I wanted to learn how to play jazz, he said it was a lifetime process, never mentioned talent.

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57

    You are now an Amway Sales Person, Studio Engineer, Computer Specialist who also plays guitar at least enough to get by.
    That does seem to be the case. At least us amatures don't have to do the Amway Sales Person bit.

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all”
    my mom was pretty smart.
    I'm glad my guitar teacher didn't follow this advise.