Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Posts 51 to 100 of 110
  1. #51

    User Info Menu

    The way I see it a lot of people use the T word as an excuse.

    Some people are really talented. But, also, so what?

    How does this relate to you? I mean it's nice to listen to them obviously. And it's interesting when you see it up close.

    But I think question like this are a bit introspective really. The main thing is create music, and enjoy doing it. And if it pleases you, work on your shit.

    There's no point being that outcome dependent.

    I suppose if you are looking to make money in a job and wanting to know if you are wasting your time, but in that case maybe playing jazz isn't the best idea anyway.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

    User Info Menu

    I think it's just very strange to try to assess one's own level of talent -- doing so throws one between the scylla and charybdis of obnoxious self-puffery and false humility and fishing for compliments. So I'll put it in different terms. Music feels natural to me, like it's a completely normal, unexceptional thing to do. Wanting to get better at it, and being able to focus on learning new music or new idea or techniques feel natural in the same way. Whether it sounds good is a whole other question, one that I don't think I can answer objectively because I'm too aware of all the mistakes I make and ways in which I miss the mark.

    John

  4. #53

    User Info Menu

    "Who has no talent but plays anyway?"

    I resemble that remark.

  5. #54

    User Info Menu

    Nevertheless, I persist.

  6. #55

    User Info Menu

    My sentiments exactly. At almost 72, I study with a jazz guitarist who is older than I am. I work hard at my craft, recognizing that I am doing this to learn as much as I can absorb and apply. I have been playing a long, long time and it has always come easy to me. But no amount of ability, IMO, replaces working hard to improve the ability that one has. If there is such a thing as reincarnation, I want to study classical guitar. Never had the time to do it in this life.

  7. #56

    User Info Menu

    there is a differance from recognising your talent and false ego

    if you are competing at high levals, you have to beleive in your talent and have confidence , because people will walk over you if they smell weakness .they will walk over you even if they dont smell weakness and they will test you . you wont even know it half the time

    they wont do it to your face, they will stab you in the back . they may even have other reasons to back stab you, but its on you to stand up for yourself .if you arent competing at a high leval , you wont understand this , but this is reality . its not so much me against them , its fighting for your space , and understanding the hiarcial agendas that are driving the competition

    you have to nurture your talent and beleive in it. you have to water it like a plant. record yourself and if you hear a part you like, embrace it and like it and eliminate the parts you dont like. play in front of a mirror and see how good you look playing .

    some people just dont like to hear someone have self confidence. they dont like to hear someone say "i think im as good as any of these people and i can prove it"... if someone is putting you down to build themselves up, then you have a negative false ego. but there is nothing wrong with beleiving in your talent, knowing what your talent is and taking it into the arena with confidence and pride .

    if you have a vision that is truly your own, you will have to fight for it . no one wants to give up their position in line they have faught hard for and allow you to pass to the front without some elbowing under the boards

    im not saying everyone will like your talent or recognise it , but you better recognise it, beleive in it , nurture it , and be able to stand up for it

  8. #57

    User Info Menu

    Yeah, get out the way of musical gladiators, they bring a whole 'nother kind of talent for competing in the arena, and you better know they believe in themselves.

  9. #58

    User Info Menu

    cos , my message is not "get out of the way" , that was never my intention

    im not tryin to brag on here on this thread. im hearing people self effacing about their talent, kind of putting themselves down , im trying to tell people to not do that . im trying to say beleive in your talent , not brag about things you cant do , but embrace and hug the things you can do.

    from the very moment you go to the corner bar to ask for a gig , audition for a band , take a record around for airplay , go to a record company to try to get a deal , try to push the record you produced etc , you have to have some kind of confidence in what you do, especialy to take the rejection that is out there.

    and even if you get rejected for something that has nothing to do with talent, all these fontes you want to get accepted by , many of them will be implying you wont get what you want because you arnt talented enough

    ive been in far too many groups where there is the napoleonic person that wants to vamp on someone and they will use putting down their playing as the way to take out their ambitions.

    its the false ego person who will use peoples desire to have their playing liked , to put them down or reject them , is who you have to get out of the way

    im not saying be condident about limitations. recognise your limitations , but, nurture your talent. and be able to defend yourself if someone is trying to put you down , even if its in your own mind

    the last thing im trying to convey is "get out of the way" on here

  10. #59

    User Info Menu

    Or as Bruce Forman puts ‘you have to be a bit of a badass’ - that’s attitude and swagger to some degree, believing in your competence and legitimacy as a musician. Because you aren’t going to convince anyone else of it if you don’t believe in it to some extent.

    gets harder as you get older of course.

    All the NYC players have it obviously. I don’t think it means being a dick, in means taking that to the band stand.

    I’ve been fortunate to play with musicians who have that. It actually makes gigs a lot more fun and easier. Being a badass actually means less ego because you need to be very well prepared or you won’t be a badass, obviously.

    Certainly a needy player who has less confidence in their ability and needs building up all the time has no less ego. And I know who I’d rather play with... and I’ve certainly been that second person.

  11. #60

    User Info Menu

    (Although I suppose it is a classic New York thing to commit to whatever stupid thing it is you’ve chosen to do with terminal serious commitment. Here we just rip the piss out of each other. No ambition will go unpunished. Especially northerners who have turned it into an artform.)

  12. #61

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    I think it's just very strange to try to assess one's own level of talent -- doing so throws one between the scylla and charybdis of obnoxious self-puffery and false humility and fishing for compliments.
    Quite so. But you guys are forgetting the Dunning Kruger effect. There's some guys here that have this attitude as if they are God's own gift to jazz guitar (constantly pontificating on just about everything and giving advice all over the place) whose playing I find so weak that I suspect that exact psychological effect must be in operation. It happens all over the internet. Some people invariably overestimate their powers. Look it up. Dunning Kruger.

    The mind can be a weird thing. Dunning Kruger often leads to self puffery by those that should woodshed more.

    DB

  13. #62

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    the last thing im trying to convey is "get out of the way" on here
    I was reacting to your mentions of competing, which is evident with some players, and not in others. I don't view music or art as a competition, so I do get out of the way of folks that feel that is their motivation. People play music for different reasons. I played with this old bassist who played in big bands and the local symphony. He said he played solely for the glory and the applause. "Why else would anyone play?" was his question.....my neighbor Buzzy said he played for the chicks....

  14. #63

    User Info Menu

    ".my neighbor Buzzy said he played for the chicks...."

    haha well , i cant argue with that

    and if people arnt competing , even more reason not to get on themselves about their "talent ", they should really get into the pure beauty of playing , get into the enjoyment with out judgement

    but the act of playing profesionaly , can set you up for judgement . even in small cities , its even worse , because people will smile in your face and everyone is freinds , but, they play the hiarcial games copying what they think their idols do . you could be lucky and have a small group you trust and play together and never have to hold your ground profesionaly .

    but, i kind of think its like the people who have other than music gigs on here, probably have a leval of confidence in the work they do get paid for . unfortunatly , music business opens it up really large for people to play games when money is involved , and that means testing people , behind the back put downs , hi arcial agendas , but , its the same thing, you have to convey a basic leval of confidence to step in a paid situation with people you dont know and hold your own , and gain their confidence in you.

    i just hate to hear people automaticly putting themselves down ...yeah, dont brag , know your limitations , dont put others down , but, dont doubt your talent , no matter what leval .....there is going to be something each individual does that will make their aproach unique to them

  15. #64

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I was reacting to your mentions of competing, which is evident with some players, and not in others. I don't view music or art as a competition, so I do get out of the way of folks that feel that is their motivation. People play music for different reasons. I played with this old bassist who played in big bands and the local symphony. He said he played solely for the glory and the applause. "Why else would anyone play?" was his question.....my neighbor Buzzy said he played for the chicks....
    I've always played for the sheer joy of it. There's nothing like live music. And the best seat in the house is on the bandstand.

  16. #65

    User Info Menu

    Re: DB's post above. It's hard to disagree. I'm hoping that fact that I see myself in that comment indicates I have some basic capacity for self reflection.

    Really, that thought... who am I to advise anyone on anything? It's a great and healthy thought to entertain at the very least. ESPECIALLY if you want to be an educator.

    I mean I try to pass on advice that helps me, but on the web everything sort of transmutes into this other thing; the web makes one weirdly militant. I think there's lots of people who seem super adamant and full on, who in real life would be pretty chilled out. I knew a couple of people IRL on the forum and they came across differently in person.

    This forum is ... an extremely weird and quite embarrassing addiction.

    But I do enjoy many of the people here, esp. the strange ones, and there are some honest to god good players too. I've discovered some great ideas here, and got my Gibson though it, even got some gigs, so it's not a total waste of time haha.

    I think the idea of bringing a confidence to the bandstand is super important though. Great musicians can be disarmingly humble and open, but they always bring it. That's a good way to be, if you can make it happen. It's kind of a paradox, and I think that comes from letting a lot of things go, it's not just talent.

  17. #66

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    ".my neighbor Buzzy said he played for the chicks...."

    haha well , i cant argue with that

    and if people arnt competing , even more reason not to get on themselves about their "talent ", they should really get into the pure beauty of playing , get into the enjoyment with out judgement

    but the act of playing profesionaly , can set you up for judgement . even in small cities , its even worse , because people will smile in your face and everyone is freinds , but, they play the hiarcial games copying what they think their idols do . you could be lucky and have a small group you trust and play together and never have to hold your ground profesionaly .

    but, i kind of think its like the people who have other than music gigs on here, probably have a leval of confidence in the work they do get paid for . unfortunatly , music business opens it up really large for people to play games when money is involved , and that means testing people , behind the back put downs , hi arcial agendas , but , its the same thing, you have to convey a basic leval of confidence to step in a paid situation with people you dont know and hold your own , and gain their confidence in you.

    i just hate to hear people automaticly putting themselves down ...yeah, dont brag , know your limitations , dont put others down , but, dont doubt your talent , no matter what leval .....there is going to be something each individual does that will make their aproach unique to them
    Great advice. And the way I feel.

    The dear departed Duncan Lamont (worked with Kenny Wheeler, Benny Goodman, all sorts) once said 'NEVER apologise for your playing.'

    This can actually be VERY hard to do. You get to the end of gig and you feel you've played badly. All you want is validation and some sort of clue that you played the gig well enough. NO. That's a trap. You have to let go.

    But his book 'the Streetfighter's Guide to Improvisation' is partly about this stuff. And he was one of the sweetest and gentlest people I've met.

    This isn't jock stuff. Professional musicians have to deal with a lot of bullshit.

  18. #67

    User Info Menu

    I started this thread and havent really commented as I've enjoyed wheres it's gone.....the interpretations and misinterpretations. The longer they go, the more they diverge, etc.

    I do have one comment with regards to the recent path it's taken regarding confidence, performance, etc. I think it IS similar to jock stuff or any other endeavor where someone has to perform.....the actors stage, the bandstand, the ballfield. To me, it all seems to have huge overlaps in the hurdles one faces.

  19. #68

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think the idea of bringing a confidence to the bandstand is super important though. Great musicians can be disarmingly humble and open, but they always bring it. That's a good way to be, if you can make it happen. It's kind of a paradox, and I think that comes from letting a lot of things go, it's not just talent.
    Experience has made me confident in my musicality, and know I will make a valid contribution to whatever music situation I find myself in. Usually it has more to do with knowing what not to play, but you can't be afraid to bring it, if the music calls for it. It's so cliche, but I like to play with others that serve what's best for the music, in the moment.

  20. #69

    User Info Menu

    This forum is ... an extremely weird and quite embarrassing addiction.
    It gets especially weird and embarrassing because you have some guys that can't play changes spouting theory and advice all over the place. What's the point in that?

    In the end playing is behavior. It is NOT knowledge (I know all this theory ...). And NOT attitude (I am so advanced ...)

    The playing never lies. Never.

    Listen. I don't care if somebody can play or not. Not at all. Nice people are nice people. Just cannot stand posers. Just be honest and do not try to impress others with advisory skills and theory knowledge. Use your clips or vids instead.

    I think the idea of bringing a confidence to the bandstand is super important though.
    No man. Bring good playing to the bandstand. Nothing more embarrassing than a delusional loudmouth wannabe being frowned at by other players. I have hosted a jazz jam for many years and seen my part. If you can't make the changes your attitude is not going to help you.

    I am a bit grumpy this weekend after having had to deal with an internet imposter while selling a guitar ... I apologise for any hurt feelings.

    DB
    Last edited by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog; 06-01-2020 at 06:42 AM.

  21. #70

    User Info Menu

    big differance from a jam session and profesional compitiion

    ive run jam sessions also , never again , and just to sit in you need some kind of confidence

    there is also a big differance from someone throwing around attitude and someone having confidence

    anybody auditioning for a gig,in a situation playing with people for the first time, going to ask a club owner for a gig, trying to get air play for their record, going into the studio to record, trying to put out their vision , taking their group onto the bandstand or festival etc has to have some kind of confidence

    the people on here arnt throwing around attitude, they are being hard on their talent, and i dont think they have to be hard on their talent

  22. #71

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    big differance from a jam session and profesional compitiion

    ive run jam sessions also , never again , and just to sit in you need some kind of confidence

    there is also a big differance from someone throwing around attitude and someone having confidence

    anybody auditioning for a gig,in a situation playing with people for the first time, going to ask a club owner for a gig, trying to get air play for their record, going into the studio to record, trying to put out their vision , taking their group onto the bandstand or festival etc has to have some kind of confidence

    the people on here arnt throwing around attitude, they are being hard on their talent, and i dont think they have to be hard on their talent
    Agreed mostly. But this forum is the internet, not the real world of professional competition. For me all that counts is the playing. The music. If that is ok you can have all the attitude and confidence in the world. Still, many great players have no attitude at all. I have met many of the top players of my country (a.o. Jesse van Ruller, Martijn van Iterson) and cannot honestly say there was much attitude going on in these guys. Confidence yes. And with reason.

    DB

  23. #72

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    It gets especially weird and embarrassing because you have some guys that can't play changes spouting theory and advice all over the place. What's the point in that?

    In the end playing is behavior. It is NOT knowledge (I know all this theory ...). And NOT attitude (I am so advanced ...)

    The playing never lies. Never.

    Listen. I don't care if somebody can play or not. Not at all. Nice people are nice people. Just cannot stand posers. Just be honest and do not try to impress others with advisory skills and theory knowledge. Use your clips or vids instead.

    ...

    DB
    That last statement especially... when I hear someone giving a lot of advice, I look for the clips. I"m a talker by profession, I teach. I also know it's easy to pontificate all day about "method" in my particular discipline, but when it comes to actual research, people talking about methodology all the time fall flat. Some of the best researchers don't say much about "methodology." Someone once asked me what my "research method" was. I told them, "I don't do research. I hunt for stuff."

    Anyhow, as a middling player looking to improve I only care about what people who can play have to say. So I look for the clips. If they can't play, I don't care what they say. IN a medium here where we don't know each other, samples of our playing are our passports to credibility. I have so many clips out there documenting in detail my utterly elementary grasp of this music, I know I can't pontificate about theory because someone will pull up one of those clips and say "Really?" It's wholesome.

    All that to say... I agree with DB. I have only ordinary musical "talent' but I have an inordinate love for this music and this instrument. So there it is.

  24. #73

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    It gets especially weird and embarrassing because you have some guys that can't play changes spouting theory and advice all over the place. What's the point in that?

    In the end playing is behavior. It is NOT knowledge (I know all this theory ...). And NOT attitude (I am so advanced ...)

    The playing never lies. Never.

    Listen. I don't care if somebody can play or not. Not at all. Nice people are nice people. Just cannot stand posers. Just be honest and do not try to impress others with advisory skills and theory knowledge. Use your clips or vids instead.
    I think that's key. But as I say, the internet has a way of making people, including me, more this way...

    No man. Bring good playing to the bandstand. Nothing more embarrassing than a delusional loudmouth wannabe being frowned at by other players. I have hosted a jazz jam for many years and seen my part. If you can't make the changes your attitude is not going to help you.
    Confidence, I said, not unfounded arrogance. A good player will often be confident. Some of confidence comes from competence, sure, but I know (as do you probably) a few very competent people who are plagued with crippling self doubt. If you bring that to the bandstand, you will sell yourself short, there's no two ways about it.

    I also know good musicians are constantly seeking validation (I can be like that too) - these players are a bit of a drag to be honest. So bonsritmos advice makes sense to me...

  25. #74

    User Info Menu

    I think that's key. But as I say, the internet has a way of making people, including me, more this way...
    I remember you leaving the forum some time ago because you thought it did not help your playing much (or something like that). So why did you return with such a vengeance? Just curious.

    DB

  26. #75

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I know I can't pontificate about theory because someone will pull up one of those clips and say "Really?" It's wholesome.
    LOL. The line of the day Lawson! I appreciate your honesty. It is really refreshing and wholesome indeed! Maybe I should use this phrase ("Really?") under the next theory thread.

    DB

  27. #76

    User Info Menu

    I started playing at 14, no talent but a burning desire to learn. I taught myself from a classical book, I played in Rock bands including a very good power trio where I played bass. Years passed I played less got married my wife's entire family played county music so I learned that along with gospel. I got with some guys and we played gigs for a few years doing country and Southern Rock(Segar, Skynard) I stopped playing after that for 10 years. A friend and great singer decided to seriously pursue a country music career. My sister financed a recording session for him, during these sessions I met Larry Van Loon, a fabulous Blues pianist and vocalist. I heard my first diminished chord and I was hooked. I bought every book I could find at the time(no youtube) learned a bunch of chords which I used when we played gigs, the next huge influence was hearing a jazz guitarist in Merle Haggard's band (Clint Strong) I was Wowed! I'm far too lazy but now in my retirement I am trying to get serious about learning jazz. I don't have talent, my ear has improved tremendously over the years. I have followed a certain Dutch jazz guitarist for a while, he knows of what he speaks. He swings with the best of them. I might know how to use a melodic minor scale but I would never profess to know anything. For me jazz is a language that I am still trying to speak, I know how to say "Hi" or "Hows the weather" today but I can't translate for anyone. I think that is DBs point, you might know a few words but you ain't no translator.

  28. #77

    User Info Menu

    Music is the best hobby, and therapy I ever had.

    I never needed talent to play, perform and practice. And over time learned to enjoy the studio, sound design and accept that when it cones to performing music I am no child prodigy, natural-talent or gift to the world of music. I do get out of music what I want and mostly cherish the unique friendships music gave me. Even during this crazy anti-social year, I managed to form a duo via file sharing, we attracted others and now we have a group of five musicians all waiting to jam together. And after checking their work, I am not the talent among those five!

    In my opinion, being talented or not should never be a reason to not pursue anything creative in life.

  29. #78

    User Info Menu

    There are many ways to determine whether a person has musical talent or not, and a mere two of them are:


    1. When practicing makes one noticeably better in a reasonably short period of time,

    2. When one performs a substantial piece of music for a music master or good music teacher (a teacher who does not hesitate to be critical) and the teacher gives them sincere high praise for their performance.


    That said, how much talent varies with individuals, as does hard work.

  30. #79

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    There are many ways to determine whether a person has musical talent or not, and a mere two of them are:


    1. When practicing makes one noticeably better in a reasonably short period of time,

    2. When one performs a substantial piece of music for a music master or good music teacher (a teacher who does not hesitate to be critical) and the teacher gives them sincere high praise for their performance.


    That said, how much talent varies with individuals, as does hard work.
    That is similar to what a (programming) teacher once told me. I share his opinion that 'talent' is a combination of being highly interested in a subject and having a great memory.

    But as the topic starter wrote, this is not a topic for defining talent. Having said that (and having a really bad memory), I am reading 'The infinite art of improvisation' and the book approaches the subject from different viewpoints, age, discipline, physicality, memory and cognitive skills.

    I'm late for practice.

  31. #80

    User Info Menu

    The way I see it after being a pro musician for over 40 years. Wannabes and Amateurs dont seem to have inhibitions when it comes to getting on stage or posting their offerings to the rest of us.

    Now if it's for critique purposes I somewhat understand. But I generally feel it's more about their personal ego gratification mostly!

    Before the Music Biz went down the tubes and the IPhone and YouTube replaced it. You actually had to go and try and audition or sit in. The bar was much higher, and you usually got the Bums RUSH if you were no good!
    All I can say now is God Help us from all the self proclaimed Wannabes here and in most Forums.

  32. #81

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jads57 View Post
    The way I see it after being a pro musician for over 40 years. Wannabes and Amateurs dont seem to have inhibitions when it comes to getting on stage or posting their offerings to the rest of us.

    Now if it's for critique purposes I somewhat understand. But I generally feel it's more about their personal ego gratification mostly!

    Before the Music Biz went down the tubes and the IPhone and YouTube replaced it. You actually had to go and try and audition or sit in. The bar was much higher, and you usually got the Bums RUSH if you were no good!
    All I can say now is God Help us from all the self proclaimed Wannabes here and in most Forums.
    That's a pretty shitty and demeaning attitude. I was golf pro for 10 years. Made my living teaching and playing the game and never looked down on those who couldn't play at my level. Also, I'd never go on a golf forum and try to shame them. Played with plenty of guys who had "ego Hdcp's" where they said their average score was lower than it was. YouTube is filled with bad golf instruction now, but the cream rises to the top. The golf forums make this place like a kiddie park. Guys who give all kinds of advice on swing and equipment but cant play to a high level. Doesnt matter, they love it, have fun and keep the game going. It's the only sport where there are more teachers than players, as the saying goes. I tell ya, I'd rather play golf with a few guys who weren't good and had good attitudes and love the game than a bunch of "pros". Most of the time they love the game more.

  33. #82

    User Info Menu

    It's quite the opposite. I hear that there used to be so many gigs and so much demand for musicians that anyone who wanted to, even kids, could get gigs if they practised for a year or two.

    Now paid gigs are more competitive. Guitarist especially are more skilled and educated. Good ones can still get gigs, but some of the mediocre players of the previous generation who can no longer compete at the current musicianship levels are unemployed and bitter.

  34. #83

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by DMgolf66
    That's a pretty shitty and demeaning attitude. I was golf pro for 10 years. Made my living teaching and playing the game and never looked down on those who couldn't play at my level.
    As an aside, just broke 80 for the first time today, I got a 78 on a par 70, from the back tees at an altitude of 7,000 feet. And I'm 62 years old, taken me a long time to break 80, ha. I play Torrey Pines usually once a week, I have a bunch of scores of 80,81,82,83, but just never seemed to be able to break 80.

  35. #84

    User Info Menu

    I have a gift for improvisation. No. Really. And verbosity.

    Still, I'm not a very good musician. As a career I chose to be a good engineer instead. Now, in my 60's, I'm trying to learn to be a jazz guitar player. Something I love but will never achieve at anything approaching actual competence. That's OK. Doing it anyway. As for talent..

    Maybe some view of 'talent' in music could be derived from the book 'Emotional Intelligence' which listed improvisation, reading/sight reading, and the ability to copy by ear as separate and distinct types of intelligence. And like intelligence in general, we get bits and pieces. Though in my experience, musicians often get one and have to work for the other two. And then possibly there is some nugget of truth in the steps of mastery: unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence, unconscious competence, mastery. In that context you take what you're born with, apply personality traits like dogged persistence, a love of minutia, and artistic self awareness to move along the path.

    Fine. Still doesn't explain why music resonates down to the depths of our being. And why we, those reading this, feel we have to learn and play. Like lemmings drawn to the view. And art has to be shared. To the disgust of the arrogant or the support of the enthusiasts (or sympathetic). Just don't forget how important self awareness is. There is an audience for amateurs (like me) but it is not the same audience or situations that can be addressed by the those farther on their way.

  36. #85

    User Info Menu

    The consent of never being proficient at jazz peaked for me this year when I committed to a full years instruction with a teacher. It was a terrible experience. A big factor in me not hanging here so much anymore.

    I stoped playing for maybe a month thinking about all the time I have put in to play jazz, this was the year I was gonna crack it, I was practicing heaps and yet the light at the end of the tunnel was going out.

    At the start of this virus crap I bought a beautiful acoustic guitar thinking if I end up unemployed at least I will have a nice acoustic to play. It was like a magnet and sucked me in.

    I have now stopped the pursuit of being a 'jazz guitarist'. I am focused on song writing and some good stuff is coming out. The stuff that comes out is odd in that it can be a old fashioned Travis Picking John Pine tune (maybe all those westerns I listened to as a kid), an acoustic instrumental, pop rock hard rock, lots of Beatles influences are obvious.

    The point being, perhaps we are all much better than we think. I find that when I pick up the 175 now and play a jazz tune I play it so much better, much more expressive, my improvisation is so much more melodic as I have stopped trying to be something now I am just being. I am sure I will write a jazz tune one day it might be an old fashioned Benny Goodman style or a modern Kreisberg style. You never know stuff just comes out.

    What I have found really interesting is that all the early influences from when I was 10 to 25 are in my D&A. These are strengths I can build on. Jazz has helped me understand theory better and fretboard knowledge etc but really if I had of stuck with the Beatles, Paul McCartney, Tom Petty, Randy Rhoads even Johnny Cash (which is kind of what lead me back to this path what is the easiest song I can play and sing, actually it was a Dean Martin Song My Rifle My Pony and Me) and truely understanding their creativity I have no doubt I would be in a better place today musically. Digging into that music there is much more to it, that Dean Martin tune, sure it is simple but the production the layering of whistling, answer and response lyrics the tines etc are masterful and works of art I can achieve and be proud of as even that, to really play it takes a lot of work.

    Rant over. Positive point trying to make is I am sure you are better than you think.

  37. #86

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    The consent of never being proficient at jazz peaked for me this year when I committed to a full years instruction with a teacher. It was a terrible experience. A big factor in me not hanging here so much anymore.

    I stoped playing for maybe a month thinking about all the time I have put in to play jazz, this was the year I was gonna crack it, I was practicing heaps and yet the light at the end of the tunnel was going out.

    At the start of this virus crap I bought a beautiful acoustic guitar thinking if I end up unemployed at least I will have a nice acoustic to play. It was like a magnet and sucked me in.

    I have now stopped the pursuit of being a 'jazz guitarist'. I am focused on song writing and some good stuff is coming out. The stuff that comes out is odd in that it can be a old fashioned Travis Picking John Pine tune (maybe all those westerns I listened to as a kid), an acoustic instrumental, pop rock hard rock, lots of Beatles influences are obvious.

    The point being, perhaps we are all much better than we think. I find that when I pick up the 175 now and play a jazz tune I play it so much better, much more expressive, my improvisation is so much more melodic as I have stopped trying to be something now I am just being. I am sure I will write a jazz tune one day it might be an old fashioned Benny Goodman style or a modern Kreisberg style. You never know stuff just comes out.

    What I have found really interesting is that all the early influences from when I was 10 to 25 are in my D&A. These are strengths I can build on. Jazz has helped me understand theory better and fretboard knowledge etc but really if I had of stuck with the Beatles, Paul McCartney, Tom Petty, Randy Rhoads even Johnny Cash (which is kind of what lead me back to this path what is the easiest song I can play and sing, actually it was a Dean Martin Song My Rifle My Pony and Me) and truely understanding their creativity I have no doubt I would be in a better place today musically. Digging into that music there is much more to it, that Dean Martin tune, sure it is simple but the production the layering of whistling, answer and response lyrics the tines etc are masterful and works of art I can achieve and be proud of as even that, to really play it takes a lot of work.

    Rant over. Positive point trying to make is I am sure you are better than you think.
    Congratulations on being set free from this harsh but beautiful mistress called "Jazz." There is so much music that you can make right now, especially if you can sing well enough.

    We witnessed your passion and the way you really applied yourself. But in the end, you found out that maybe you would be better served playing other music.

    Jazz will still be here for you, but it won't be an obsession as it is for many of us. Maybe you can come back to her, with just a simple song with which you can apply your newfound melodic lines - a song with a leisurely tempo. Then maybe you can speed it up later.

    Jazz will be there for you, but this time on your terms.

  38. #87

    User Info Menu

    Crappy Attitude, Sure! But name me another busines where people feel entitled work on your job? You'd be upset if someone came in and tried to perform your tasks,especially when they were totally unprepared and not qualified.

    The new model is I can do anything I think I can,and never mind the experience or quality! Unbelievable to have that kind of bravado, when you suck!

    The gigs are now populated by kids who are selling to other kids and weekend warriors who feel empowered. And while some of that has always been somewhat true. This is the new normal.

  39. #88

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    As an aside, just broke 80 for the first time today, I got a 78 on a par 70, from the back tees at an altitude of 7,000 feet. And I'm 62 years old, taken me a long time to break 80, ha. I play Torrey Pines usually once a week, I have a bunch of scores of 80,81,82,83, but just never seemed to be able to break 80.
    Congratulations!!!

    That is no small feat! With all the advances in equipment and in teaching, the average score is still around 90. Very few ever break 80. ...well done! Coming down the stretch and knowing that it's right there , then pulling it off is rewarding.

    I think part of most of the reason people take on such endeavors such as golf, jazz guitar, etc. Is no matter what your level, every once in a while you "get a taste", no matter how small, of what it's like to do well.
    Last edited by DMgolf66; 08-11-2020 at 10:10 PM.

  40. #89

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jads57 View Post
    Crappy Attitude, Sure! But name me another busines where people feel entitled work on your job? You'd be upset if someone came in and tried to perform your tasks,especially when they were totally unprepared and not qualified.

    The new model is I can do anything I think I can,and never mind the experience or quality! Unbelievable to have that kind of bravado, when you suck!

    The gigs are now populated by kids who are selling to other kids and weekend warriors who feel empowered. And while some of that has always been somewhat true. This is the new normal.
    Can't say I disagree with any of this. Though it's been going on probably always. Think of opera singers in the 19th century lamenting that it's how you look to get patronage.

    Still.. it is different now. More tech and fewer venues. That and jazz died a commercial death some decades ago so it's rare to find an audience that can tell the difference. If I were a pro musician I think I would have a crappy attitude as well.

  41. #90

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jads57 View Post
    Crappy Attitude, Sure! But name me another busines where people feel entitled work on your job? You'd be upset if someone came in and tried to perform your tasks,especially when they were totally unprepared and not qualified.

    The new model is I can do anything I think I can,and never mind the experience or quality! Unbelievable to have that kind of bravado, when you suck!

    The gigs are now populated by kids who are selling to other kids and weekend warriors who feel empowered. And while some of that has always been somewhat true. This is the new normal.
    Are you kidding me? Did you not read a word of what I wrote? Go to any driving range and theres a guy telling his buddy how to swing the club and saying it with AUTHORITY! Only endeavor where theres more teachers than players as I said. Jazz guitar doesnt have the market on hubris. EVERYONE thought they could do my job. Didnt bother me. Some would even try to tell me what to teach. Nature of the game, nature of many men in general. Never had this issue with any of ladies I've ever been around.

    I'm sure these kids who "suck" aren't touring with Diana Krall. Same as someone who isn't a great teacher would be teaching PGA Tour professional. For the record, I dont see Tiger Woods or any top notch player or teacher going on any of the golf forums bad mouthing, demeaning or saying anyone "sucks".

  42. #91

    User Info Menu

    Okay Jads57, I hear you... but this dead horse keeps getting beaten to death over and over again. Poor horse.

  43. #92

    User Info Menu

    You're right fep! I'm just surprised no one cares about the state of music these days. Long as it sells product and can get noticed.

    For me they killed the Goose that played Golden Eggs! The Musicians never enjoyed the credit they truly deserve for helping create all the albums,etc that are now enjoyed by the public.

    Watch any of the documentaries "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" "The Wrecking Crew", "Muscle Shoals" "Memphis American Studios"

  44. #93

    User Info Menu

    DMgolf66. Tiger Woods doesn't play local clubs nor did regional Studio Work, Teaching,etc. So the Barriers for the PGA are there already
    Music Biz is a whole different game,sorry to inform you!

  45. #94

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74 View Post
    I've always played for the sheer joy of it. There's nothing like live music. And the best seat in the house is on the bandstand.
    I play with a jazz sextet of excellent musicians. I'm a self taught hack but they keep having me back so I must have some chops. I do know that while I'm playing in a gig with them, each and every time I think to myself, "I have got the best seat in the house". There is really nothing more enjoyable for me than to be surrounded by music. It's heavenly. I have said to the group; "I'd pay to do this for a living"...that's the truth.

  46. #95

    User Info Menu

    Beaubs , are you buying drinks or paying these guys to gig with you,LOL !

  47. #96

    User Info Menu

    I was and I am convinced that best case my ability to play music is average.
    Years ago I was convinced I never be able to play a standard theme and a solo I could even partially enjoy...

    Now sometimes I enjoy listening to my playing... do not ask what changed :-). Anyway, that is why now I keep playing.

  48. #97

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Beaubs , are you buying drinks or paying these guys to gig with you,LOL !
    Jads57 is going through an episode of Dunning–Kruger effect again, LOL !. He'll come around eventually and say every one should gig and develop as musicians. Just ignore and wait.

  49. #98

    User Info Menu

    Absolutely everyone should play music or at least learn to appreciate great Music.

    I attended a clinic long ago where Herb Ellis told the audience. Most of you won't make it! But that's okay you can always enjoy it.
    I don't think he ever envisioned a scenario where amateurs would take over the actual jobs of professionals.

    I do wish I could say something positive and uplifting about the current state of making a living as a professional musician. The truth is you are no longer a guitarist responsible of many tasks of knowing music.

    You are now an Amway Sales Person, Studio Engineer, Computer Specialist who also plays guitar at least enough to get by.

  50. #99

    User Info Menu

    “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all”
    my mom was pretty smart.

  51. #100

    User Info Menu

    When I was studying with Harry Leahey and told him I wanted to learn how to play jazz, he said it was a lifetime process, never mentioned talent.