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  1. #551

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    and now he is on ventilation after "jokingly" calling the quest for ventilators "operation last gasp" just weeks ago.
    That's just the famous dry British humour!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #552

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    That's just the famous dry British humour!

  4. #553

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  5. #554

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    Always nice to see a new Avalon Jazz Band video. Vinnie still chunking it out.

  6. #555

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  7. #556

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    vitamin c? what's wrong with you people?

  8. #557

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    I once had a copilot who read on the internet that vitamin C could cure anything. The so-called doctor who had the website claimed he had cured polio with it. My cojo ate dozens of vitamin C tablets daily, and tried to get me to do the same. This despite the studies I pointed him at which showed that too much artificial vitamin C damages the arteries. He wound up with a heart attack, and refused stents and any other treatment, saying he would cure the problem with vitamins. He could barely walk across the room. He never flew again, and I don't even know how long he lived. I tried to stay away from him, because that much stupidity might be contagious. Is Dr. Marik consulting with Dr. Oz?

  9. #558

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  10. #559

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    What I got from that is that there is one actual trial in progress to study sepsis patients, and that Marik has not published any actual mortality data, he just says it works. If it is effective, that would be wonderful news. But the long-term use of large quantities is still inadvisable, IMO, FWIW.

  11. #560

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    as i understand it some people die from the extreme reaction of their immune system. so there is merit in seriously studying the benefits/dangers of huge vitamin C doses. problem is that folks will just eat 3-4g vitamin c powder per day and will possibly harm themselves. people are like that.

  12. #561

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    Dr. Marik published this 'Retrospective Study' to support his assertions in 2017 and the gist of it is easy enough to take in:

    https://journal.chestnet.org/article...564-3/fulltext

  13. #562

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    Almost - Vitamin D's the one....it's been official NHS England advice for years (who knew ?) that everyone at UK & similar latitudes should be taking extra Vitamin D3 in winter.

    That includes new born babies except where they're on Formula (ie not breast) milk as that's already fortified, including breast feeding from a mother taking supplements...

    Same official advice states if you're at a higher risk of Vit D3 deficiency you should take it all year round. Higher risk = darker skin tone* (we make it from sunlight, it's hard to get via diet), wear clothing that covers you up (Monks & Nuns are the examples given - I guess a Hijab or being a Goth counts), or are indoors a lot (Care home residents, the Disabled are given as examples).

    *There's a theory that the main reason people from higher latitudes have lighter skin than their African ancestors is because that increases the body's ability to make sufficient Vit D from weaker sunlight.

    I remember a news report from my youth that said people of Indian/Pakistani origin working in the English Mill towns had high rates of rickets (caused by Vit D deficiency) ....it was assumed to be poor diet due to poverty until investigated & they were found to be eating their traditional foods, what was missing was enough sunshine for their skin tone.

    A vid to be going on with, he (Dr John Campbell) also addresses Vit D in more recent updates because of the high % of African American casualties in the US.

    Yes, he knows it's more complicated than that..


  14. #563

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    The good thing about Vit-D is that it can't hurt in reasonable doses, and is a cheap supplement, so there is no down side to taking it.

  15. #564

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    Vitamin C, of course, was put forth as a cure for cancer (and a sort-of vaccine for the common cold) by Linus Pauling, an otherwise amazingly stable genius. When the Mayo clinic could find no corroboration of his findings in their tests, he declared that it was because they gave the vitamin C orally rather than intravenously.

    So according to the most intelligent proponent of Vitamin C for health, it should be taken intravenously. Who does that?

    Taking a Vitamin D supplement has been proposed for some time by a number of reputable physicians, scientists, and medical institutions as a necessary part of building up human immune systems. That sounds like a good idea.

  16. #565

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    Dr. Marik's innovation (intravenous hydrocortisone-ascorbate-thiamine) was applied in the fight against sepsis.

    Covid-19 kills pretty much the same way as sepsis.

    Marik's work created a storm of reaction because his results were "too good to be true."

    Many doctors everywhere started using his protocol anyway, cause it very often saves people.
    Understand that half of all in-hospital deaths involve sepsis, which, like Covid-19 is treacherously resistant to treatment.

    There are many trials underway world-wide investigating the 'Marik Protocol.'

    There is a good chance, I think, that within months intravenous vitamin C and/or some variation of the 'Marik Protocol' will be common to the Covid-19 battle.

    Seems like if you or someone dear to you gets a "serious" case of Covid-19 there's a very bad mortality rate.

    Might want to know about Dr. Marik and this vitamin C thing.

  17. #566

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    Confounding Study Results For Vitamin C To Treat Sepsis : Shots - Health News : NPR

    The result: no difference in these scores at all. The bottom line was that vitamin C "did not significantly improve organ dysfunction scores or alter markers of inflammation and vascular injury," the study says.

  18. #567

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit
    ...Seems like if you or someone dear to you gets a "serious" case of Covid-19 there's a very bad mortality rate...
    From what we know in the USA that may be the case. Unfortunately we may never know much since it seems like only about 7 tenths of 1% of the population have been tested thus far.

  19. #568

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    Not an 'oranges for oranges' comparative study and so, more spin than science.

    A lot of that happening, wait & see.

  20. #569

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    From what we know in the USA that may be the case. Unfortunately we may never know much since it seems like only about 7 tenths of 1% of the population have been tested thus far.
    i was thinking about the half, or more than half of severely ill patients who don't survive even with ventilators as mentioned in this article, also posted above;

    Rethinking coronavirus, growing questions about the use of ventilators

  21. #570

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    "vitamin c? what's wrong with you people?"

    djg, i love you man ....



    ( vit d , jobim ? you mean the like when you go " outside" for a social distance walk in the sun ? nice concept )



  22. #571

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    For people with kidney failure, too much Vitamin C is bad for the kidneys. FYI.

  23. #572

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Total cases has just exceeded 500,000: Coronavirus Update (Live): 503,083 Cases and 22,339 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Outbreak - Worldometer

    I read that it took 167 days from the first case to 100,000; 11 more days to 200,000; 4 days to 300,000; 2 or 3 days to 400,000.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    I posted that one week ago, Thursday, March 26. The official count has just doubled in one week to 1,000,000 cases.
    Thursday April 9. Checking back after another week. The good news is that the number didn't double again in a week to 2 million, although it did just tick over 1,600,000.

  24. #573

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    Ideas in the medical community regarding CV are changing radically week by week. Indeed it appears that early intubation is killing a lot of patients. The disease seems to behave in bizarre ways that don't really resemble other types of pneumonia. Some people say that the closest thing is High Altitude sickness. Which doesn't make any sense logically but that's how the patients are presenting.

    So in the last week the focus has changed to not intubating patients unless they are really crashing and giving them high flow nasal canula or cpap. The problem is that when they come in their vital signs are so terrible that everyone's instinct is to intubate them right away but somehow the patients seem to tolerate their horrible vitals.

    I'm still not back to work but it sounds truly bizarre. Famous doctors that I've paid attention to for years and who are never short of confidence are on videos and podcasts basically saying that every week they are radically changing their treatment strategies. It's quite interesting as well as horrifying.

    I can tell you one thing: if someone, doctor or otherwise, is saying they have the magic bullet, or something (some med, vitamin C, blah blah blah) is the secret to COVID treatment, I can 100% guarantee you they are entirely wrong. The situation is changing way, way too fast, and the smartest people in the business are still just trying to understand how it works, so if someone is saying they have it all figured out, they definitely don't. It's not possible given the short time this has been around and the speed at which the knowledge base is changing.

    I mean, Vitamin C might work, who knows? It's basically been like a joke for years. I don't think it's ever been shown to do much of anything. Not impossible that it will work, and if it does, that would be awesome. But because one doctor says it works, that definitely doesn't mean anything at all.

  25. #574

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    I should say that I'm hopeful that treatment options will improve in the next month or so. It seems like a tremendous amount has been learned in the last 2 weeks. I'm not sure how much has filtered down to community hospitals, etc (although most of the major outbreaks are in places that probably have fairly decent teaching hospitals). But it's pretty amazing how radically the treatment paradigm has changed in a really short time.

    It's basically like doctors are forced to totally rewrite their whole guidebook in a two week period during a pandemic. Seemingly most everything they were doing 3 weeks ago appears to be wrong. The other thing that can happen is they will realize the things they switched to are also bad but it appears that they are making some progress.

    Of course, this doesn't really change the fact that people are going to get sick as shit and almost die, and a lot of them will die anyway (there's definitely going to be a lot of that as long as people are going to get sick). And hospitals will continue to be overwhelmed and the economy will be effed. But as far as people going into the hospital, I think more of them will do ok as long as there are resources for them.

    I'm not totally sure how big an issue this is, but I'm pretty sure hospitals are in danger of running out of Oxygen, which is crazy. But if you suddenly have 4x the number of patients you'd normally have and they are all on 10x the normal amount of Oxygen, that's where you might end up.

  26. #575

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    Stepping up oxygen production shouldn't be that difficult. It's not like there is a foreseeable limit. As long as there is air, there is oxygen.

  27. #576

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    Stepping up oxygen production shouldn't be that difficult. It's not like there is a foreseeable limit. As long as there is air, there is oxygen.
    The trouble is Trump doesn't have investments in air, unlike hydroxychloroquine.

  28. #577

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    But the White House assures us that his investment isn't large enough to affect his decisions.

  29. #578

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    But the White House assures us that his investment isn't large enough to affect his decisions.
    If only his taxes weren't being audited, they'd let us see.

  30. #579

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    yes, sully , what you are saying doesnt surprise me one bit

    and now they are saying very powerfully what the new strategy should be is like taiwan , but they wont mention taiwan....who has 5 deaths in 24 million people

    my gut is the authority i trust the most right now, when they lift the lockdowns, its going to be everybody look out for yourself

  31. #580

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    yes, sully , what you are saying doesnt surprise me one bit

    and now they are saying very powerfully what the new strategy should be is like taiwan , but they wont mention taiwan....who has 5 deaths in 24 million people

    my gut is the authority i trust the most right now, when they lift the lockdowns, its going to be everybody look out for yourself
    The Taiwan figures are all-the-more amazing, for a country that normally has high rates of two-way travel with China.

    Until recently, we had a Taiwanese exchange student living with us (she's moved on to the next family in the exchange programme). Her parents called her every day and thought Canadians were nuts for not wearing masks from the get-go.

    I've been reading different stories about how Taiwan did this. A big part of this is that they had been preparing for a pandemic -- they assumed one would be coming. They even picked up that there was trouble in Wuhan before China had reported it, by monitoring Chinese social media. If the world had been listening to Taiwan we would all be better off, but China's hate-on for Taiwan, which means that the WHO has a weird relationship with Taiwan, gets in the way.

  32. #581

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    you all would have been proud of me , the other day ,i went to the supermarket in my homemade paper towel mask with masking tape holding it in place....please dont tell me paper towels would let me spread it to someone else, because i know i could still get it with paper towels or cloth....i still cant get or wont get masks meant for profesionals until there is a glut

    sulley , id like your opinion:
    do you think if the normal flu didnt have a shot now, would there be as many deaths as this corona virus ?

  33. #582

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    do you think if the normal flu didnt have a shot now, would there be as many deaths as this corona virus ?
    Look at how coronavirus overwhelmed the healthcare system in northern Italy, where the crematoriums can't keep up with the bodies to be burned, or in Spain where bodies had to be stored on an ice rink, or in New York City where they had to bring in refrigerated trailers to store bodies. That has never happened in ordinary flu seasons before shots were available.

  34. #583

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    good point , and i did think about that, and it is the x factor.

    but , most of them had other complications too , as most of the deaths of carona virus seem to have . and that could also be its death signiture, usualy coupled with other complications.

    what sully is telling us now, it makes me think that if by some chance my wife really had, she had a horrible cough i asked if she wanted to go to a doctor twice, its better to gut it out like she did. but that is total hypothetical based on if we had it. im not betting on that.

    also, i guess we have to wait until this thing seeks its leval to truly know the death statistics of the countries who tell the truth about it and dont try to hide the amount . we have been getting a whole lot of charts and grafts and death statistics, thrown at those of us trying to be informed , and some things are unraveling fast

    there are lots of things to figure out when this is done, including i want to know if i already had it ( i already called the mayers corona virus health line and its not available if you dont have symptons or a health worker )

  35. #584

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    you all would have been proud of me , the other day ,i went to the supermarket in my homemade paper towel mask with masking tape holding it in place....please dont tell me paper towels would let me spread it to someone else, because i know i could still get it with paper towels or cloth....i still cant get or wont get masks meant for profesionals until there is a glut

    sulley , id like your opinion:
    do you think if the normal flu didnt have a shot now, would there be as many deaths as this corona virus ?
    Are you asking if there was no flu shot would it kill as many people as the coronavirus? I'm not an expert here, but I think definitely no, in any ordinary (or even bad year). The flu shot has been around since the 50s I guess (just reading this now). But there was the Spanish Flu pandemic and I don't think anything else comparable.

    I guess to be honest, I don't really know. I think minus a mutated particularly deadly flu like the Spanish flu, definitely not. But it's totally possible.

    Influenza vaccine - Wikipedia

    My understanding is that the flu is a virus that does a lot of mutation which makes it harder to make a vaccine for (and why the flu vaccine has variable effectiveness) and that Coronavirus does not appear (hopefully) to be a virus that mutates a lot, so the hope is that a vaccine will be more effective. But there's no guarantee.

  36. #585

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    Hey let me be clear, if you are feeling short of breath, you at minimum need to call your doctor ASAP.

    I'm just saying that if you ended up getting admitted to the hospital, I think your chances of survival are better now then they were 2 weeks ago. You still have a pretty good chance of dying, relatively.

    And young people are arresting (dying) at home, which is bizarre. So I'm totally not recommending you "tough it out" at home. You might be better off staying at home for a variety of reasons, but only if you are actively consulting with a doctor or your health department. Because you most likely don't have oxygen at home and that seems to be what will probably save you.

  37. #586

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    Stepping up oxygen production shouldn't be that difficult. It's not like there is a foreseeable limit. As long as there is air, there is oxygen.
    I mean, yeah, clearly, but if they are concentrating it themselves and they need 20x what they normally need they might be in trouble. And if they are getting it from outside, and their suppliers are now getting 20x the orders in a small area, like NYC, also it might be a big problem.

    Coronavirus Updates: Queens Hospitals Forced To Transfer Dozens Of Patients Due To "Malfunctioning" Oxygen Systems - Gothamist

  38. #587

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    thanks sully

    i went out to the pharmacy today to get alcohol, bacteria wipes , and one of the people working there was coughing and sniffling , and wasnt wearing a mask .

    the places they are letting us go to are germ factories . i wish there were health teams at each large supermarket taking everyones temperature who comes in , there arnt that many huge supermarkets that each municiple couldnt mount that scheme. they only need one trained person and other non medical trained helpers .

  39. #588

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    thanks sully

    i went out to the pharmacy today to get alcohol, bacteria wipes , and one of the people working there was coughing and sniffling , and wasnt wearing a mask .

    the places they are letting us go to are germ factories . i wish there were health teams at each large supermarket taking everyones temperature who comes in , there arnt that many huge supermarkets that each municiple couldnt mount that scheme. they only need one trained person and other non medical trained helpers .
    Good you can find alcohol at your pharmacy, here you can't find anything with alcohol since over a month and also stuff like Fantastik for disinfecting I guess some people might actually drink it lol...
    Our government controlled Liquor shops are opened as an essential service however, I have a very good reserve of wine and spirits...

  40. #589

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    Some people who can't get access to real liquor have been known to drink all sorts of things. I knew some people who drank vanilla extract when I was growing up in a dry county. Even Sterno for the truly desperate. Unfortunately, most alcohol sold as drinking liquor isn't pure enough for sanitizing use, being mostly only ~40% alcohol, and killing a virus requires at least 60%, or 120 proof. I have plenty of drinking alcohol on hand, but we're trying to limit the use of hand sanitizer because we don't have a lot, and it's hard to get. Plain soap and water works better, and is cheaper, so we're using that.

  41. #590

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    This morning I woke up to the sound of jets. I wandered outside and people were taking pictures. I asked what was going on and a girl said jets were doing a flyover of the Vegas strip in honor of health care workers. I was still half asleep but she got choked up about it. So did I when I was more awake.
    We can change.

  42. #591

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    The trouble is Trump doesn't have investments in air, unlike hydroxychloroquine.
    Trump in two years;


  43. #592

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinlander
    Good you can find alcohol at your pharmacy, here you can't find anything with alcohol since over a month and also stuff like Fantastik for disinfecting I guess some people might actually drink it lol...
    Our government controlled Liquor shops are opened as an essential service however, I have a very good reserve of wine and spirits...
    I don't know what it's like in Quebec, but here in BC, weed shops are considered essential services.

  44. #593

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    I think that's due to the medical aspect although some would argue for the recreational as well.

  45. #594

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdazey
    I think that's due to the medical aspect although some would argue for the recreational as well.
    Population pacification is prioritized.

  46. #595

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    I don't know what it's like in Quebec, but here in BC, weed shops are considered essential services.
    Yes SQDC government managed shops are also open

  47. #596

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    ....i miss capitalist decadence ....( there are aways more gigs with capitalist decadence )

  48. #597

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    The number of deaths in the US annually from the common flu is very close to the number who die from gunshot wounds, on the order of 30,000. But nobody has ever panicked at those numbers. The mortality rate in Washington state in the US so far is ~20%. At those rates, people do panic, and are. Cans of Lysol spray are going for $45, if they can be found. There is no hand sanitizer anywhere, and soap is becoming scarce. Not to mention dried pasta and other non-perishable foods. The stock market has crashed, and will likely go much lower. So far, the government is fighting the virus by proposing tax cuts. They will cure anything.

    My son has multiple myeloma, and recently underwent a stem cell transplant after his immune system was completely killed, thus greatly impaired ability to fight any infection. He's currently in the hospital for an unknown viral infection. All they can say is that it isn't COVID-9. It looks like he will be okay this time, but the corona virus would kill him quickly. And I'm in the prime demographic for dying from it - old men. We're not panicking, not buying extra anything, still going to the gym, but I expect it will be rampant soon. There are already cases in the county. All we can do is try to ride it out. Houston hospitals are already near capacity, so someone will probably have to decide who will be saved and who won't. Better my death than my grandsons'. But cases in children seem to be mild, with a very low mortality rate. The demographic I'm in is the most expendable by far, and the highest mortality rates. But for me, what happens, happens. We'll do the best we can with what we have.
    I'm going to point out that we have absurd rates of gun deaths and flu deaths in this country and you are taking the death rate for a whole year of each of them and comparing it to approx 1.5 months of Coronavirus deaths. I do believe if 20k of people were killed by guns in a month you would probably take notice.

    I don't think you can really compare this to gun violence, but if you actually did, the proper reaction is: holy shit, this is way crazier then gun violence, which is really crazy to begin with.

    Another comparison: currently about 7x worse than 9/11 and climbing by about 1/3 of 9/11 everry day.

    I'm 44 but I'm totally not ok sacrificing my parents or anyone else's for some supposed economic reopening which is probably not going to really help anything (kinda hard to have an economic reopening that simultaneously kills hundreds of thousands of people, unless you're Stalin or Mao).

    Really hope your son weathers this well, good luck.

  49. #598

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    Guns.. such an emotional topic. And so many folks are easy to manipulate. Since gun ownership is low for the Dem base and high for the Republican base, these flames will be stoked as much as possible while the politicians seek to get their base to give them power and money.

    Actual things that kill people are harder to politicize and require actual thought. From CDC 2011 but until now hasn't changed much:

    1.Diseases of heart (heartdisease)
    2.
    Malignant neoplasms (cancer)
    3.
    Chronic lower respiratory diseases
    4.
    Cerebro vascular diseases(stroke)
    5.
    Accidents(unintentional injuries)
    6.
    Alzheimer’s disease
    7.Diabetes mellitus(diabetes)
    8.
    Influenza and pneumonia
    9.
    Nephritis,nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (kidneydisease)
    10.
    Intentional self-harm(suicide)
    11.
    Septicemia
    12.Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis
    13.
    Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease (hypertension)
    14.
    Parkinson’s disease
    15.Pneumonitisdueto solids and liquids

  50. #599

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    My point, which I didn't seem to make well, is pretty much what you said. This thing will kill many more people than both the causes I mentioned, perhaps an order of magnitude or two more, but lots of people still don't want to do anything about it, and laugh at it. And in Michigan there were protests in the street decrying shutting down business. It's still the case that money is more important than human lives to a certain segment of the population. And they sum up their money-grubbing in one word - FREEDOM!

    But on a brighter note, we bought the grandson a new bicycle, which made him very happy, which in turn made us very happy.

  51. #600

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    ...But on a brighter note, we bought the grandson a new bicycle, which made him very happy, which in turn made us very happy.
    Just think when he gets his first solid body.. made me smile too so thanks for that.

    As for who decides and who manages getting the economy going again, I'm glad it isn't me. I'm going to try to be patient, cooperative, and not too judgemental on an impossible task performed by people more used to political infighting than actually managing major events. It's going to be a ride.