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  1. #1

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    Was serious, complex music with philosophical and political themes supplanted by beach fantasies? Did challenging, intellectual music succumb to the power of relaxing tunes? Was the urban realism of post-bop smothered by suburban escapism? I think we should be told.



    Did bossa nova kill jazz?-out-there-jpgDid bossa nova kill jazz?-bossa-nova-rio-jpg

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Nah. It was more like:

    1. Small group jazz, lots of improvisation, virtuosity, Charlie Parker...
    2. Elvis, Beatniks, Folkies,
    3. The Beatles and all who followed really put the nail in the coffin.

    But then something strange happened.

    In the late 60s the rockers became enamored with long jams, hot solos, and so on.
    Then we had a renewed interest in jazz in the 70s for awhile.

    4. But then came along Disco, Rap, Hip-Hop.

  4. #3

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    When has serious, complex, intellectual music ever been the touchstone for popularity?

    Louis Armstrong among others observed that when bebop came in, jazz traded melody and danceability for speed and complexity. Jazz as a popular art form faded away.

    Yes there were crazes from time to time, mostly trying to pin jazz on some pop trend of the time like bossa nova or rock (fusion) or even hip hop.

    Let’s face it...after the 50’s jazz became niche music. It was bound to happen anyway.
    “Without music, life would be a mistake”--Friedrich Nietzsche

    Current lineup: Gibson ES-135 ('02), Peerless Sunset, Harmony Brilliant Cutaway ('64), Godin 5th Avenue, Alvarez AC60 A/E classical, Kay K37 ('56), Fender Squier VM Jazz bass, several ukes. Amps: Fishman Artist, Fender SCXD, Pignose 7-100.

  5. #4

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    Yes, every time you call a Bossa Nova tune on a jazz gig you're accomplice to murder!

  6. #5

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    Apples and Oranges. They can be blended with positive results, but they're still different species.

  7. #6

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    hmmm, things have apparently gotten shortened here
    Sounded pretty civil from what I could tell, but didn't catch the last couple posts
    carry on....

  8. #7

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    Latin music is straight time.

  9. #8

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    No styles of music are dead. They need each other to survive. Bossa nova is samba music dressed in jazz clothes. Without jazz music, bossa nova would’ve been just samba music. Like someone other said, there’s no danger of mixing apples and oranges. It’s still music, right?
    Have I found it yet? I said that but I didn’t knew it. Did I knew that I had found it yet? No, it wasn’t what I was looking for. Nevermind. Ok.

    -Pataphysical monologue based on Cartesian theory

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    hmmm, things have apparently gotten shortened here
    Sounded pretty civil from what I could tell, but didn't catch the last couple posts
    carry on....
    Hey, there are two very similar threads about jazz and bossa but under different forums.

    The other one is in 'theory'.

    I also believed my posts were removed HERE but I was mistaken (they are THERE).

  11. #10
    Im not an expert, but dont know, "bossa nova killed jazz", too big phrase to say.

    I think funk and soul killed jazz much more than bossa nova, bossa nova gave jazz a new air, and became a fasion many jazzers follow, I think refresh it, but funk-rock-soul thing i think killed jazz.

    Lot jazz players of the time started playing funk, more simpler music, just because "it was the new and cool thing of the time", and they thought they were evolvin the music, but to my ear they backed up lot of steps for a "new cool sound".

  12. #11

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    Jazz is still alive and kickin'! All Bossa Nova did was add to jazz, Charlie Byrd comes to mind! The deal with playing jazz is it's an exclusive art form and you gotta feel it in order to play it well! What other music could be written in 7/8's time and be good to many of us? Yeah, Don Ellis wrote Turkish Bath in the late 1960's but I could still hear a band playing it today, just not for 10 minutes like his other album release! lol Or Dave Brubeck with his 5/4 timing? Only jazz, only jazz!



    Turkish Bath by Don Ellis - UNC Jazz Press

  13. #12

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    Just heard the news from the forensic lab- Jazz killed itself.

  14. #13

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    Listening to the newly available Getz recording (Live at the Village Gate), recorded just before his work with Gilberto, one must conclude that Bossa Nova killed straight-ahead jazz for a lot of people. Cause Getz didn't return to straight-ahead stuff for a LONG time.

    I think a lot of jazz musicians and people in that circle looked at his success and said, hmmm, maybe there's a way to make a lot more money out of this stuff than we've been making?
    “Without music, life would be a mistake”--Friedrich Nietzsche

    Current lineup: Gibson ES-135 ('02), Peerless Sunset, Harmony Brilliant Cutaway ('64), Godin 5th Avenue, Alvarez AC60 A/E classical, Kay K37 ('56), Fender Squier VM Jazz bass, several ukes. Amps: Fishman Artist, Fender SCXD, Pignose 7-100.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff View Post
    Listening to the newly available Getz recording (Live at the Village Gate), recorded just before his work with Gilberto, one must conclude that Bossa Nova killed straight-ahead jazz for a lot of people. Cause Getz didn't return to straight-ahead stuff for a LONG time.

    I think a lot of jazz musicians and people in that circle looked at his success and said, hmmm, maybe there's a way to make a lot more money out of this stuff than we've been making?
    So did George Benson 'kill' jazz as well?

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    So did George Benson 'kill' jazz as well?
    No, but in his autobiography he ends it with the conclusion that Charlie Parker killed jazz.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    No, but in his autobiography he ends it with the conclusion that Charlie Parker killed jazz.
    To me Parker was one of the individuals that made jazz what it is.

    Benson decided that making money was more important than playing jazz. (something I understand since making money is key to our society).

  18. #17

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    Buddy Holly killed jazz, and that's why they had to take him out. But, it was too late.....

  19. #18

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    Jazz when it was Pop music performed by great musicians was probably the height of all Pop music. Later Boss's Nova and Latin was great as well. And then came the Folk Boom around the same time.
    And although it was sometimes performed by great musicians as well.The harmonic structure allowed more amateur guitar players an in to the Pop world.
    Then came the Beatles and as stated above it put the nail in the coffin.

    I love the Beatles and many other rock and folk musicians for their contributions. But allowing bad guitarists to take over,Just as in newer church music. It has ruined music for good I'm afraid.
    And even worse computers have made it possible for absolute non musicians to take over,YUK!!!

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    To me Parker was one of the individuals that made jazz what it is.

    Benson decided that making money was more important than playing jazz. (something I understand since making money is key to our society).
    I look at this differently. Benson is jazz. Whatever he plays is nothing but jazz. Sometimes maybe not the type you like, but he never ceased to be a jazz musician to me.

  21. #20

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    It is what I said in that thread "Jazz Killed Bossa". I said it is actually the other way around.
    Maybe Bossa did not kill Jazz, but burying it alive, yes, it is.
    Only tentacles left to be seen, waving.



    Seriously, Rock and Folk were/are fair competition.
    Bossa is cuckoo's egg, with devastating influence.
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    No, but in his autobiography he ends it with the conclusion that Charlie Parker killed jazz.

    If that's the case that's how I want to go.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    I look at this differently. Benson is jazz. Whatever he plays is nothing but jazz. Sometimes maybe not the type you like, but he never ceased to be a jazz musician to me.
    I saw Benson twice, once before Breezin and once after. In that second concert, he played one jazz song; Take Five and it wasn't even a full version (like 4 minutes, if that). Just more of; see, I can do this type of jazz.

    Hey, I like some of Benson's pop work, but I don't view it as jazz.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    I saw Benson twice, once before Breezin and once after. In that second concert, he played one jazz song; Take Five and it wasn't even a full version (like 4 minutes, if that). Just more of; see, I can do this type of jazz.

    Hey, I like some of Benson's pop work, but I don't view it as jazz.
    Same thing when I saw Benson; at most it felt like I went to a dull smooth jazz concert.
    I used to work with a singer whose 'showstopper' was 'The Greatest Love', and I played it a few times a week for many years.
    After all those years, I heard Benson's version of it, and I couldn't believe how square and corny he sang on it.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    So did George Benson 'kill' jazz as well?
    I don't think going "pop" killed anything, it's just a personal decision by an artist.

    But back to your point...early jazz was dance music, from early New Orleans to big band stuff. It WAS the popular music of the day. After bebop, jazz became a single track that was much more isolated--artistically pure, but not broadly popular (with some exceptions of course--Brubeck's Take Five for instance).

    Getz' bossa albums showed a path to broader appeal by fusing jazz to the dominant pop trends of the day. He created a template that others would follow--Wes, Benson, the jazz fusion groups like Mahavishnu, the smooth jazz players. His album with Gilberto was the first time a jazz album won Album of the Year at the Grammies--not to be repeated until Herbie Hancock in 2008.
    “Without music, life would be a mistake”--Friedrich Nietzsche

    Current lineup: Gibson ES-135 ('02), Peerless Sunset, Harmony Brilliant Cutaway ('64), Godin 5th Avenue, Alvarez AC60 A/E classical, Kay K37 ('56), Fender Squier VM Jazz bass, several ukes. Amps: Fishman Artist, Fender SCXD, Pignose 7-100.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff View Post
    I don't think going "pop" killed anything, it's just a personal decision by an artist.

    But back to your point...early jazz was dance music, from early New Orleans to big band stuff. It WAS the popular music of the day. After bebop, jazz became a single track that was much more isolated--artistically pure, but not broadly popular (with some exceptions of course--Brubeck's Take Five for instance).

    Getz' bossa albums showed a path to broader appeal by fusing jazz to the dominant pop trends of the day. He created a template that others would follow--Wes, Benson, the jazz fusion groups like Mahavishnu, the smooth jazz players. His album with Gilberto was the first time a jazz album won Album of the Year at the Grammies--not to be repeated until Herbie Hancock in 2008.
    Maybe we need to ask whether bossa nova was a dominant pop trend without Stan Getz. I don't think it was. The album " Jazz Samba " was a huge hit 2 years before "Getz / Gilberto", and to my mind was a better album. 'Jazz Samba' for most of us, was the primary introduction to Bossa Nova / samba. Can anyone name another contemporary bossa nova album in 1962 when " Jazz Samba ' was released ? Probably not. There was no samba trend, in the US anyway, 'til 'Jazz Samba'.
    I keep being reminded of how many huge hit LP's Stan Getz had - -Moonlight in Vermont, ( '52 ), and then ten years later, Jazz Samba.

    Just MHO.

  27. #26

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    My version or era was Chick Corea Light as a Feather that really was a turning point musically for me.And I'm sure many of you here as well!

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff View Post
    I don't think going "pop" killed anything, it's just a personal decision by an artist.

    But back to your point...early jazz was dance music, from early New Orleans to big band stuff. It WAS the popular music of the day. After bebop, jazz became a single track that was much more isolated--artistically pure, but not broadly popular (with some exceptions of course--Brubeck's Take Five for instance).

    Getz' bossa albums showed a path to broader appeal by fusing jazz to the dominant pop trends of the day. He created a template that others would follow--Wes, Benson, the jazz fusion groups like Mahavishnu, the smooth jazz players. His album with Gilberto was the first time a jazz album won Album of the Year at the Grammies--not to be repeated until Herbie Hancock in 2008.
    I only mentioned George Benson and him going "commercial" (pop) due to your prior comment related to Bossa and Stan Getz:

    "I think a lot of jazz musicians and people in that circle looked at his success and said, hmmm, maybe there's a way to make a lot more money out of this stuff than we've been making?"

    Of course Benson making commercial \ pop \ smooth "jazz" recordings didn't stop Benson from being a side-man on straight-ahead jazz recordings.

    Thinking about this more and related to your last paragraph, one could say jazz musicians going commercial is what saved jazz: as in exposed more people to jazz (even if smooth) that wouldn't have listen to straight-ahead jazz.





  29. #28

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    .......Some other 'Jazz Samba' info as an FYI........

    Stan Getz and Charlie Byrd: Give the Drummer Some - JazzTimes

    I only remembered some of the Getz-vs-Byrd suit back in the day.......

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    I only mentioned George Benson and him going "commercial" (pop) due to your prior comment related to Bossa and Stan Getz:

    "I think a lot of jazz musicians and people in that circle looked at his success and said, hmmm, maybe there's a way to make a lot more money out of this stuff than we've been making?"

    Of course Benson making commercial \ pop \ smooth "jazz" recordings didn't stop Benson from being a side-man on straight-ahead jazz recordings.

    Thinking about this more and related to your last paragraph, one could say jazz musicians going commercial is what saved jazz: as in exposed more people to jazz (even if smooth) that wouldn't have listen to straight-ahead jazz.
    Well I don't disagree at all. I think jazz had to change in order to save itself. In other words, straightahead jazz was on track to become a dead end, and Getz showed them a way out of it.

    I realize there was always a commercial strain in jazz even in the golden age (40's-60's), but to get back to that wide popularity of the big bands one had to go with what was popular. I am not able to find sales figures for the first Getz bossa album (Jazz Samba), but I read that it sold a million very quickly, and bossa nova immediately became a craze in the US. (Of course Gilberto's late 50's albums were very popular and influential as well.)
    “Without music, life would be a mistake”--Friedrich Nietzsche

    Current lineup: Gibson ES-135 ('02), Peerless Sunset, Harmony Brilliant Cutaway ('64), Godin 5th Avenue, Alvarez AC60 A/E classical, Kay K37 ('56), Fender Squier VM Jazz bass, several ukes. Amps: Fishman Artist, Fender SCXD, Pignose 7-100.