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  1. #1

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    Hello guys!

    Maybe this has already been discussed sometime - I dont know. But I have been have this problem massively for 10 years now and I want to get rid of it. During solos I recognize that the audience is watching me and this annoyes me massively. My lack of self-confidence also doesnt help.

    At my solos the notes I want to play dont come out, half of them are dirty, or dead, I am acting in haste, want to show what I can play, I am sweating, and of course dont got any applause in the end, but a dozen of massive nervousness and "bad" adrenalin...

    Practising something for months does help but I dont have the time always (we had big band camp yesterday, I got the tunes on the day before the last day on which I had to do solo, I can play them before my big band mates, but not before audience). Dont have too much routine - this is one thing I am working on. At a smaller audience it does already work, but not before a bigger (30-40 is already bigger for me).

    I already visited a psychologist -well she said she is one of the bests, had also Dr rank, -but this therapy didnt help me, I only wheeled half of my salary there for 4-5 months...

    I find self-suggestion and breathing techniques on the net, I am going to give them a try.

    But if anyone has experience and know what I am talking about and already find a soluiton, share it with me, please!

    Thanks in advance,

    MrBlues

    ps.: I will be afk for 5-6 days now but after that I will response thanks.

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  3. #2

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    There are medications used for stage fright. I have no idea if they're safe or effective.

    There are therapeutic techniques in the area of cognitive behavior therapy. Probably safe, but I don't know how effective.

    Then, there's just doing it over and over again until it starts to feel routine.

    You're not alone in this.

  4. #3

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  5. #4

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    Musicians typically rehearse far away from their audiences and in practice rooms that differ significantly from the concert venues in which they aspire to perform. Due to the high costs and inaccessibility of such venues, much current international music training lacks repeated exposure to realistic performance situations, with students learning all too late (or not at all) how to manage performance stress and the demands of their audiences Frontiers | Simulating and stimulating performance: introducing distributed simulation to enhance musical learning and performance | Psychology

  6. #5

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    shifts in facial expression, changes in posture, including yawning, turning their heads, or walking out of the room.or just engaging in a bloody conversaation..you could always learn the Barney Kessel stare....kidding

  7. #6

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    Bluegrass guitarist Chris Eldridge (and bandmate of Julian Lage) recommended “The Inner Game of Tennis” to help understand and overcome performance issues. He said it’s as applicable to musical performance as tennis. I’ve only read part of it, but it looks useful.

    The Inner Game of Tennis—Goodreads
    The Inner Game of Tennis: The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance by W. Timothy Gallwey:
    “The Inner Game of Tennis is a revolutionary program for overcoming the self-doubt, nervousness, and lapses of concentration that can keep a player from winning”

    There’s also a derivative book “The Inner Game of Music” by another author, but I think Fleck found the Tennis book more useful.

    If you can play to bandmates and very small audiences, I’d suggests building on that. Find every opportunity you can to play for audiences in your comfort zone. Play for friends, students, retirement homes, park benches. How about every day find a public place, play two or three tunes as people wander by? You want to retrain your brain to turn off the scripts like “I must not make a mistake,” “people don’t like me,” “my fingers always freeze up in public,” etc. and just focus on what you are trying to express through your music. Take baby steps every day. Eventually you’ll build confidence, learn to play through mistakes, and become less concerned with what people think than with the beauty of the music.
    Last edited by KirkP; 08-05-2019 at 12:54 PM.

  8. #7

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    You need to read Kenny Werner's "Effortless Mastery"!

    (The fact that books are writen about this means that you are not alone, which is comforting already, ain't it?)

    My advise: take a deep breath and do it over and over again, but most of all: try to ENJOY it! Because if you are not enjoying performing you need to seriously ask yourself if you should be doing it at all..... (you could compose or record, or just play for yourself).

    In the past I did experience what you do. It slowly went away by just playing as much as I can. When I feel nervousness coming up, I do two things:
    - tell myself I'd better quit playing if I get too nervous to enjoy it
    - realize that I am unique and only I sound like me. The people I play with apparently enjoy me and my unique-ness enough to want to play with me, so I don't have to prove anything to the audience. If they don't like my playing: hey, I am not obliging them to stay!

    Realize that you yourself are not happy with the way you play. You are the biggest criticaster of yourself and you judge yourself through the eyes of the audience. So either:
    - you realize the audience probably isn't judging you at all, but you are! Or:
    - you bring your playing up to your own standards
    (I can already give away the first thing is easier to do..... ;-)

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    There are medications used for stage fright. I have no idea if they're safe or effective.

    There are therapeutic techniques in the area of cognitive behavior therapy. Probably safe, but I don't know how effective.

    Then, there's just doing it over and over again until it starts to feel routine.

    You're not alone in this.
    [Note: I'm a psychologist by day, musician by life.]

    The meds that are used are called "beta blockers," and low doses can be effective and safe (and talk with your physician about any individual risk factors!). In music school we called them "stage fright pills," and I briefly used them with good results. Haven't needed them in decades, though.

    "CBT" is a highly effective psychotherapeutic treatment for anxiety (and depression, and a bunch of other conditions!), and has few, if any, "side effects," so it's pretty safe.

    Part of proper CBT treatment is "exposure" to the feared situation/thing, which is "doing it over and over again until it starts to feel routine," so that's definitely an important piece!

    There are a handful of good self-help books on anxiety, mindfulness, relaxation, etc., and learning/practicing some techniques on your own can be helpful. I certainly like the Werner book that was mentioned -- a good read for all of us!

    @Mrblues -- I sure hope you were joking about spending half your salary on therapy!

    And make sure you're having fun along the way!

    (Dr.) Marc

  10. #9

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    I'll go into a little more detail.

    The beta blockers reduce epinephrine, aka, adrenaline. So, they're most effective with physical symptoms of excess epinephrine, which, happen to include a symptom you mentioned, i.e. sweating. That's an indication that they might be relevant in your situation. This medication is used to lower blood pressure, which could be good or bad, depending on your health status.

    There are side effects, commonly including fatigue and weight gain. The weight gain may not be an issue if you're only taking it for performances. Not sure about the fatigue. It may feel like that if your BP is too low.

    This article has some self-help tips which look promising.

    Overcoming Performance Anxiety in Music, Acting, Sports, and More

    CBT is often recommended, but I couldn't, in a few minutes time, find a study which assesses its effectiveness for musicians. There is a metaanalytic study (pools different studies and tries to get an average, more or less) which finds CBT effectiveness in anxiety disorders varying from around 50% to 77% positive response, depending on the nature of the anxiety disorder. That's pretty good. It's not a guarantee.

    I found one study which compares CBT to buspar, finding, unsurprisingly, that CBT was superior. Some psychiatrists don't feel buspar is effective as an anxiolytic, though, so I'm not convinced this study is that helpful.

    Some musicians I know speak very highly of Effortless Mastery, so I think that might be a very good resource. Haven't read it myself though. Trying to reframe how you think about it and lots of practice are recommended.

    I'd add spending some time thinking about how to set up the performances in ways which reduce anxiety. As an example, I'm more nervous facing the audience. So, when I set up, I try to get a spot on one side of the stage, facing the other side of the stage. Commonplace for a pianist but not a guitarist. Nobody complains and I don't have to be looking straight at the audience. Then, if it's my gig, I call a couple of easy tunes first. Anything you can figure out that will help even a little is worth it.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcwhy
    [Note: I'm a psychologist by day, musician by life.]

    The meds that are used are called "beta blockers," and low doses can be effective and safe (and talk with your physician about any individual risk factors!). In music school we called them "stage fright pills," and I briefly used them with good results. Haven't needed them in decades, though.

    "CBT" is a highly effective psychotherapeutic treatment for anxiety (and depression, and a bunch of other conditions!), and has few, if any, "side effects," so it's pretty safe.

    Part of proper CBT treatment is "exposure" to the feared situation/thing, which is "doing it over and over again until it starts to feel routine," so that's definitely an important piece!

    There are a handful of good self-help books on anxiety, mindfulness, relaxation, etc., and learning/practicing some techniques on your own can be helpful. I certainly like the Werner book that was mentioned -- a good read for all of us!

    @Mrblues -- I sure hope you were joking about spending half your salary on therapy!

    And make sure you're having fun along the way!

    (Dr.) Marc
    Doc, shouldn’t that be CB-D, not CB-T?

    I keed, I keed. Kids today take CBD oil for everything.

  12. #11

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    Yeah, this is a free trick that helped me get ready for a recital. Firstly - no caffeine for 72 hours.

    I had my wife sit 3 feet in front of me and stare directly at me while I performed a guitar piece. A little distracting, but I adjusted, then,

    I had my wife sit 3 feet in front of me and move around, while I performed a guitar piece. A little distracting, but I adjusted, then,

    I had my wife sit 3 feet in front of me, stand up and sit down and move all around. A little distracting, but then I adjusted. In additional iterations she spoke, shouted, made noise, spoke directly to me, etc. All as a way to distract or irritate me. Once I could tune her completely out, I was ready.

    All went well at my recital. You have to tune them out, or make them non-consequential.

    Cheers.

  13. #12

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    I don’t know if this is applicable to your case, but if you typically practice in a calm quiet room, try some practice sessions with a lot of distractions. Try turning on the TV and playing some of your repertoire. For some tunes, try to focus on your playing. For others, pay attention to the TV and see if you can play the tune on “autopilot.” You might find exercises like this help you learn to perform with distractions similar to what you’d experience on the bandstand.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Doc, shouldn’t that be CB-D, not CB-T?

    I keed, I keed. Kids today take CBD oil for everything.

    Funny, and true! "Cures all that ails you!"

  15. #14

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    Thanks all for your answers, I am going to try a lot of what u said here. Going to perform on a garden party today also, to work on the routine.

  16. #15

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    The only thing within our control is ourselves. It's a challenge controlling ourselves when fear, begins running the movie projector in your mind of your fears, anxieties etc.

    Hear's your mind's dialogue, your mental projector of the audience member(s):

    "He's really not that good."
    "What a waste of time. I could be doing my nails."
    "I played guitar in high school. I bet I'm still better than him."
    "Did he mean to play that note?"

    This is what the mind naturally does. Until we witness what's happening and take corrective action.

    We fear others judgment too. Not to worry, we were all programmed this way as children. If the fear is playing us, we're not available to lose ourselves into the music we're attempting to play.

    Know this:

    As a society we say people shouldn't judge. What's the reality of it? Do they?

    Yes

    When we're preoccupied with others thinking whose mind are we in?

    Theirs

    So in short, we're in their business and not our own business.

    Anytime we're in somebody else's business we lose...but only always, for the result generally will be separation from ourselves.

    When your mind goes there, and it will, ask yourself:

    Whose business is it what person A or B thinks about my playing?

    Answer - Their business

    This is cause and effect. Anytime we're in someone else's business the result will be fear, separation, anxiety, fill in the blank. What generally begins to occur is the movie projector of our mind begins working overtime projecting our worst fears, anxiety, etc., etc. The audience isn't doing it. We've gone to war with ourselves, if only via our mental projection.

    It's impossible to play an instrument while our mind is playing us. In short, we're not present for ourselves.

    Begin with getting back into your own business, or the only thing you can control. Your own mind. Don't expect quick results. We've spent our entire lives with this programming. Think of this work as the great undoing. But only because we're tired of the pain, i.e. anxiety. Like playing guitar, this inner work requires effort to effect positive change. No fear. Know yourself. Love...beginning with yourself.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    The only thing within our control is ourselves. It's a challenge controlling ourselves when fear, begins running the movie projector in your mind of your fears, anxieties etc.

    Hear's your mind's dialogue, your mental projector of the audience member(s):

    "He's really not that good."
    "What a waste of time. I could be doing my nails."
    "I played guitar in high school. I bet I'm still better than him."
    "Did he mean to play that note?"

    This is what the mind naturally does. Until we witness what's happening and take corrective action.

    We fear others judgment too. Not to worry, we were all programmed this way as children. If the fear is playing us, we're not available to lose ourselves into the music we're attempting to play.

    Know this:

    As a society we say people shouldn't judge. What's the reality of it? Do they?

    Yes

    When we're preoccupied with others thinking whose mind are we in?

    Theirs

    So in short, we're in their business and not our own business.

    Anytime we're in somebody else's business we lose...but only always, for the result generally will be separation from ourselves.

    When your mind goes there, and it will, ask yourself:

    Whose business is it what person A or B thinks about my playing?

    Answer - Their business

    This is cause and effect. Anytime we're in someone else's business the result will be fear, separation, anxiety, fill in the blank. What generally begins to occur is the movie projector of our mind begins working overtime projecting our worst fears, anxiety, etc., etc. The audience isn't doing it. We've gone to war with ourselves, if only via our mental projection.

    It's impossible to play an instrument while our mind is playing us. In short, we're not present for ourselves.

    Begin with getting back into your own business, or the only thing you can control. Your own mind. Don't expect quick results. We've spent our entire lives with this programming. Think of this work as the great undoing. But only because we're tired of the pain, i.e. anxiety. Like playing guitar, this inner work requires effort to effect positive change. No fear. Know yourself. Love...beginning with yourself.
    Well said, 2b!

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    Well said, 2b!
    Thank you c74! My 2nd divorce took me in the direction of inner work in search of positive self change. Life does have happy endings even if some marriages don't.

  19. #18

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    My improvisational lines used to ALWAYS be more cautious in public than the ones I'd play in private. Mind you, I took a lot of gigs where I'd find out the material to be played at the venue, on the bandstand. This contributed to my playing with less adventure than I'd have preferred. Often, I was "chart chasing."

    If you hang around--if you play well enough to get callbacks--I promise you that you will improve over time. It's like anything else that you can do...time makes a difference. At some point, you will find yourself playing interesting solos without sweating them out.

    Keep playing; keep accepting gigs and showing up at jams. Fluency happens...honest.