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  1. #101

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    If I generalize every generation tries to create their own thing to dissociate itself from its Parent, but every generation also ends up becoming its Parent at one point or another.
    There was, there is and always will be bad and good music in every generations!
    What is called music by the current generation is often not considered as such by the previous generations.
    If i go into specific individuals, there have been, there is and will always be people digging by their own the qualities of past generations music.
    ...every note has an origin and a destination...
    - Tal Farlow

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  3. #102
    As the song says ............"What is Hip?"

    hip

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    I don't know why that flew under your radar.

    I bought the album when it first came out. I must have originally heard it on the radio is my best guess.

    Regarding standards, I'm tired of hearing old guys play standards at restaurants and shows. That is getting so old and stale, regardless of how well they play. Original music please.
    Probably the "too much music, too little time" syndrome. Just my information overflow filter that had a mishap and got out of tune. I guess we all have some strategy, what channels to scan. I don't listen much to mainstream radio these days, simply because most of it is not for me anymore. And I don't actively seek out sources that profit on creators that don't get paid. I've created my own little filter bubble to increase the probability for a direct hit and sometimes I block the wrong music for the wrong reasons.

    The music I target often depends on what phase or cycle I'm at. Obviously I listen to contemporary originals, no one can avoid it, sometimes I'm lucky to find something that inspires me. Here's an up and coming artist I like:


  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinlander View Post
    If I generalize every generation tries to create their own thing to dissociate itself from its Parent, but every generation also ends up becoming its Parent at one point or another.
    There was, there is and always will be bad and good music in every generations!
    What is called music by the current generation is often not considered as such by the previous generations.
    If i go into specific individuals, there have been, there is and will always be people digging by their own the qualities of past generations music.
    Actually the problem I have with much of current music - jazz in particular - is that it is entirely familiar to earlier generations.

    Where’s the horrible noise?

  6. #105
    No doubt the technical abilities of more musicians are better. But due to the nature of gigs these days,or lack thereof. There aren't the venues to support them 5 to 7 days a week, and or as a livable income.
    I don't care how much anyone practices, it's the actual gigging that teaches your skills. And without that platform you are nothing more than well studied amateur.

    It's not about impressive chops, nor amount of Facebook Likes. It's about musical communication with others to create the song, and bring the audience along with you in the process. And this situation along with lack of monetary support of real pros has brought what I have been referring to the "Sad State of Music" we are now in.

    Look at interviews with people like Larry Carlton, John McGlaughlin ,Vinnie Caliuta,etc. And see what they are saying about current state of music.
    When they have said this we should all, pay attention.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Actually the problem I have with much of current music - jazz in particular - is that it is entirely familiar to earlier generations.

    Where’s the horrible noise?
    exactly!!!! but it's out there...just have to dig a bit deeper...

    like we always had too!

    cheers

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57 View Post
    I don't care how much anyone practices, it's the actual gigging that teaches your skills. And without that platform you are nothing more than well studied amateur.
    If you have any recorded performances/material, why not post a link so we can check out the skills you have thus acquired? Otherwise these are just words.

    If you've had quality engagements to enjoy and learn from, fantastic, because playing sh*t gigs can be absolutely soul-destroying.

    By the way, composing music, at home or in private, of course, is a rigorous way of honing skills.

  9. #108
    So being old and acquiring this new tablet,I'm not sure how to post videos from YouTube ?
    But I can be found in mostly older videos from the Twin Cities music scene over the past decades or so. The ones I know about are Doug Maynard Band, Jay Bee& The Routine, Steve Clark & The Working Stiffs, an amp demo with Eric Gayles at American Guitar Boutique, various others.

    As far as national artist's I've worked with have been Doc Severensen, Bonnie Raitt, Alexander O'Neil, Cynthia Johnson (Funkytown), Prudence Johnson (Prairie home companion ),Roy Buchanon, Martha Reeves and The Vandellas, Sister Sledge, The Drifters, Gloria Gaynor, The Shirelles, Otis Day, Al Wilson, The Steeles, Flyte Time,
    The Jets, Badfinger,etc.

    I've been playing in the Twin Cities for over 40 years with just about every scene sans the Alternative Music, Garage Rock Scene. A also done lots of jingle work and some teaching here as well.

    I'll also stipulate I'm a professional guitarist,not a song writer. But I certainly can tell when someone has had musical training or upbringing.

  10. #109

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    Yeah the relative lack of live opportunities is a big problem for developing as a musician. Lot of bedroom players on youtube.

  11. #110

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    A book review in the Economist, of Rockonomics by Alan Krueger, includes this statistic: "Today the top 5% of performers claim 85% of concert revenue, for example, and the top 1% take 60%." This is happening in a market where artists cannot make money from recordings, so must tour constantly.

    It is easy to blame the music industry for the sad state of music, but the music reflects profound social changes, particularly a trend towards conformity where everybody wants to do the same thing at once. The raw, angry rock of the past reflected a prevalent teenage attitude. The kids of today have The 1975, a band which makes Coldplay look dangerous. Meanwhile, the Rolling Stones, a band which has not made an album of original material since 2005, is touring once again.

    Needless to say, there is not much room for jazz in this environment.

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick View Post
    A book review in the Economist, of Rockonomics by Alan Krueger, includes this statistic: "Today the top 5% of performers claim 85% of concert revenue, for example, and the top 1% take 60%." This is happening in a market where artists cannot make money from recordings, so must tour constantly.

    It is easy to blame the music industry for the sad state of music, but the music reflects profound social changes, particularly a trend towards conformity where everybody wants to do the same thing at once. The raw, angry rock of the past reflected a prevalent teenage attitude. The kids of today have The 1975, a band which makes Coldplay look dangerous. Meanwhile, the Rolling Stones, a band which has not made an album of original material since 2005, is touring once again.

    Needless to say, there is not much room for jazz in this environment.
    Blaming the industry is kind of risible now anyway. The industry at its height allowed creativity to happen, for all its faults.

    Today, there is no recording industry. Costs of making records are shouldered by and large by the artist.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic View Post
    exactly!!!! but it's out there...just have to dig a bit deeper...

    like we always had too!

    cheers
    So what you are saying is that we have to spend a lot of time looking for music that we truly hate?

  14. #113

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    Engaging someone I can't "see" over the internet is not really a favourite pastime, but I was beginning to get a bit miffed with the assertion that gigging is the only way etc. Personally, I live in a place where interaction with other like-minded musicos is rather limited and a lot of so-called pros just play rehashed pop in village fiestas.

    So, Martha Reeves and The Vandellas, eh? If so, count me as very jealous. So, to check y'all out, one looks up "jads57-Twin Cities-Jay Bee& The Routine"?

  15. #114

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    John Della Selva playing 80s fusion on a Strat? That you?

  16. #115

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    Regarding the original post, the reality is that the majority of people in the world have no interest in studying music. On top of that, everyone has a different personality and, as a result, will be drawn to a different type of music. Personally, it doesn’t bother me that many people prefer pop, or rap, or anything other than jazz. Jazz music can benefit from pop and rap just as much as it can benefit from blues, and I would hate to think my musical options could ever be so limited as they would b if everyone appreciated the same music. In this advancing age of technology all forms of music will likely be available to anyone who cares, and if you want to know which chord or line to play at any given moment there are literally endless options...unless everyone had the same musical interests.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick View Post
    The raw, angry rock of the past reflected a prevalent teenage attitude. The kids of today have The 1975, a band which makes Coldplay look dangerous.
    Hahaha that made morning! I never heard The 1975, but will check it out now.

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway View Post
    I spent almost an hour yesterday watching this live from Moscow. BTW, the bass player is 18 years old.

    Really? As an American you find this very enticing?

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway View Post
    I'm not an American but I'm not sure why that would be an issue.
    I find Russian bands attempt at funky groovy stuff always a little contrived. They could be great musicians and i know a few, but it never ever sounds 100% organic. But Im spoiled i live in NYC i can go to Harlem and hear the real deal. Hence my question. Sorry, I thought you're American.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway View Post
    I'm not really sure what 100% organic even means. What I hear is music that is incredibly well played, creative and lots of fun. That's good enough for me.
    Fair enough. I just dont hear much that I havent heard before and with a better feel. But its great for the domestic scene for sure.

  21. #120
    Peter C : I played a red strat back in 1981 with Doug Maynard. More recently a variety of Gibsons, Teles, etc.

    As far as making music on the internet, or recording separately. While overturning has been around for over 60 years. I still equate it to having sex without another person, for lack of a better description.
    You are relating to what's been done already. There is no reaction from the other musicians to what you play. Hence no real,spontaneity or true improvisation.
    And while it can be somewhat fun,it's nowhere near live playing in practice.
    And learning to play live is also the training ground to understand ensemble playing, at least in my opinion.

  22. #121

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    Jads57 impressive background.

    Love Motown. Joe Messina, Robert White, Eddie Willis, Earl VanDyke, Benny Benjamin and of course the backbone James Jamerson, and the rest of players who placed Motown at so great musical heights throughout the world.

    Yesterday was listening to some Martha Reeves and the Vandellas' legendary hits like Nowhere to Run, Dancing in the Street, her excellent versión of Ain´t that Peculiar, etc.

    Great music.

  23. #122
    Just so as to not confuse anyone .When I backed up most of these national performers,I was just a hired hand for that particular gig or gigs.
    Sometimes it went a bit further ,especially with local people who had record deals.

  24. #123

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    Jads, I'm assuming you're the guy I saw in a couple of 80s clips, one with a kind of blond Strat, maybe Lace Sensors on that one. Cool.

    I cut my teeth as a teen jamming and performing with bands - it was my life - so I know where you're coming from and respect that. However, musical onanism is not restricted to bedrooms, I can tell you, and it can completely ruin a live jam. Have unplugged and gone home on more than one occasion. For what you're saying to work, it's gotta be with the right people.

    I was put in touch with a great drummer a couple of years ago. He was in a popular European band and made enough money to buy a property up in the hills. We jammed all weekend and really hit it off, but the lack of a suitable bass player in a 100 mile radius and the ride to his house just made it unworkable.

    If you're lucky enough to be surrounded by hot (and "giving") players, the potential for sharing and learning is obvious, but I actually don't want anyone around when making up tunes. On the other hand, I love to hear others play my stuff.

    Cheers

    BTW, I can post a rough and ready vid if requested. I ain't shy

    PS One thing, do/did you make enough money to support a family, pay off a mortgage, stuff like that?
    Last edited by Peter C; 06-23-2019 at 05:58 PM.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    So what you are saying is that we have to spend a lot of time looking for music that we truly hate?
    why so negative?..your odds are just as good that you will discover music you truly love!

    if you rely on billboard charts or youtube hits to keep you informed musically...you are in trouble...

    swim hard in the opposite direction

    cheers

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic View Post
    why so negative?..your odds are just as good that you will discover music you truly love!

    if you rely on billboard charts or youtube hits to keep you informed musically...you are in trouble...

    swim hard in the opposite direction

    cheers
    I had having a joke.

    Actually I would take any strong emotion - even hatred - over ‘meh.’

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah the relative lack of live opportunities is a big problem for developing as a musician. Lot of bedroom players on youtube.
    I've seen this used as a disparaging remark about today's music (and musicians who others claim can't play with other people), but I've seen evidence to the contrary based on today's communication technology. There's a group of people who learn songs via the educational game Rocksmith and record videos covering different parts and then the videos get mashed together to create a pretty fleshed-out sound. This has led the same group of people to decide on a key and tempo and jam together through video shares. It's like playing chess by mail.

    I'm not saying it doesn't suck to lack live scenes, but I have hope for the future.

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Russ View Post
    I've seen this used as a disparaging remark about today's music (and musicians who others claim can't play with other people), but I've seen evidence to the contrary based on today's communication technology. There's a group of people who learn songs via the educational game Rocksmith and record videos covering different parts and then the videos get mashed together to create a pretty fleshed-out sound. This has led the same group of people to decide on a key and tempo and jam together through video shares. It's like playing chess by mail.

    I'm not saying it doesn't suck to lack live scenes, but I have hope for the future.
    It’s really not the same thing.

    It’s a new thing.

  29. #128

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  30. #129

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    I think the music industry reached its nadir around the time of the Black Eyed Peas and Lady Gaga, and has been slowly on the mend since. In 15-20 years we can expect to see acts of the same musical stature as Right Said Fred and Scatman John.


  31. #130

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    This technology thing has gotten so pervasive that it's hit every aspect of the music world.
    Tonight I had a paid rehearsal for a musical I'm playing (Mama Mia) for the next month (30 shows!), and there were three keyboard players there, along with bass, drums and guitar. No horns...
    When I'd look up from the music at some dazzling keyboard sound, there'd be nobody playing it.
    Apparently, two of the keyboard players have some tracks player called a Symphonia that plays a bunch of pre-programmed tracks.
    When we were playing the Entr'acte, one of the Symphonias was out of sync with what the band was playing, and it sounded like a bi-tonal, Stravinsky piece. They kept playing, anyway.

    It hasn't gotten to the point where they're using drum machines yet, but I'm outta there if that happens.

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    It hasn't gotten to the point where they're using drum machines yet, but I'm outta there if that happens.



  33. #132
    Another thing nowadays, seems like being the Entertainer is the primary goal. We were happy to be just players backing the front person.
    Maybe they have it correct since there never was any real future in being a musician.Even when gigs were plentiful and actually paid at least $100,lol!

  34. #133

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    Pop music is characterized by vocals. Various pop genres with staying power were always built around some vocal stereotype. Words are sung or spoken in a certain fashion, using genre specific song techniques, lyrics and recording equipment. Without vocals it wouldn't fit in a pop pigeon hole and would have to go into the instrumental bin together with misc. lounge music and assorted Jazz.

    Typically the vocalist is the main attraction, musicians are disposable sidekicks. In the 21st century, musicians playing instruments have gradually been replaced by a producer with DAW synth plugs, sometimes referred to as a "DJ". Over the last decades Electronic Dance Music (EDM) turned the "DJ" into a super star and vocalists became supporting actors. The DJ is the song writer, the producer and the guy leading a stadium concert, the concert arena turned into a dance floor.

    Jazz used to be dance music (a long time ago). The vocalist was there as well as the DJ counterpart in the shape of a swing band leader, like Count Basie and Duke Ellington ("DJ Basie" and da Duke"). Ellington, Miller and Basie standards will still be played by big bands in 50 years, just like there are still Symphonic orchestras playing music that was written 300 years ago. The caretakers and watchmen of the music heritage typically belong to an educated elite, who's primary focus is on the tones (not vocals in particular) and with no direct purpose to provide pop to the masses (uneducated consumers, demographic marketing targets, mostly teenagers).

    The sax gave the voice to Jazz, the electric guitar gave the voice to Rock. Now we live in the age of the DAW and music is supposed to be a free giveaway on the internet, this is the problem and you know it. But the table is about to turn as the musical drought has become unbearable. Embrace the opportunity.

  35. #134

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    Btw in the baroque era no one gave a shit about instrumental music and it was all about the singers.

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Btw in the baroque era no one gave a shit about instrumental music and it was all about the singers.
    Yep, the harpsichord wasn't nearly so rich and luscious to listen to, relative to its successor. All orchestral instruments evolved and improved, did they not?.

  37. #136

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    I’ve been thinking about this since the thread started and I would be interested to see how music (in the US, anyway) would change if there was a greater emphasis on teaching it in schools. I know when I was in college and we were introduced to a new (to us) concept in a psychology class, for instance, we basically went out looking for it, excited about our newfound knowledge.

    So my thinking is that the popcorn pop music of today is thriving because it’s listeners don’t know any better. But if they were taught some of the intricacies of music, they would look out for them more and might seek more complex music.

    I knew a bassist that would yawn at what I thought was impressive guitar work and say it’s just the same four chords with a finger-roll pattern and then a chord change to keep everyone from getting bored. He couldn’t stand pop, but did enjoy EDM because his theory was that it was all in the key of B (if I remember him right) and he liked hearing how someone operated under that kind of constraint. It always made for interesting conversations.

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Yep, the harpsichord wasn't nearly so rich and luscious to listen to, relative to its successor. All orchestral instruments evolved and improved, did they not?.
    If you say that to an early musician they would probably .... sulk.

    Instruments in general have got louder and more flexible. This might not always be an improvement in tone quality. In jazz we see this - modern trombones are louder than early 20th century ones, Selmer Mark 6 is louder than balanced action, steel strings louder than guts and so on, but they all have their adherents.

    From the point of view of the guitar, I prefer the sound of 18th century style guitars to modern classical, but there’s no doubt that the latter is a more versatile and capable instrument.

    Harpsichord? Well for an instrument that Sir Thomas Beecham once described as ‘two skeletons copulating on a tin roof’ there’s been a renaissance in recreation of 17th/18th century instruments and some of them sound almost quite nice.

    But yeah you could argue that the drive towards the development of the instruments of the orchestra were in response to ever more complex orchestral music. Also inventors were hard at work coming up with stuff for composers.

    Look at all the stupid instruments they had like the Ophecliede, they were always inventing things. Instruments needed patronage, music written for them. The abortive career of the Sax in the orchestra is an interesting and sad footnote, Ravel aside.

    But as nowadays many people listen to Vivaldi’s concertos or whatever for pleasure I wouldn’t necessarily agree the quality of the instruments was the reason for this. Just changing fashions.

    After all before Sinatra, the big band (Dorsey, Miller, Goodman, whatever) was the main attraction and the singer was a sidekick....

  39. #138

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    I think maybe the reason that the current state of music is so sad is because there are so many more great musical craftsmen than great musical artists. IMO, a good blend of both qualities is required for great music. When music is focused only at one extreme or the other it gets pretty boring.

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by strumcat View Post
    I think maybe the reason that the current state of music is so sad is because there are so many more great musical craftsmen than great musical artists. IMO, a good blend of both qualities is required for great music. When music is focused only at one extreme or the other it gets pretty boring.
    I think this is true.

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Btw in the baroque era no one gave a shit about instrumental music and it was all about the singers.
    So what's changed?
    Today we were performing the overture to a show to a large audience, and the people were talking louder than we were playing!
    Then, when we finished and segued into the first number with a vocalist, they started shushing each other, and the hall was completely quiet.

    Some of them must have felt guilty or something, because a bunch of them told us we sounded great after the show was over.

  42. #141

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    One time I was at a little venue and a stand-up comic came on. He was doing the best he could, but he was getting no reaction, silence. You could hear a pin drop in the place. You could see him getting increasingly frustrated and agitated. He finally burst out in an angry tirade against the audience. "Why aren't you laughing?! ... Don't you know good humor when you hear it?!" On and on...it was apparently all our fault. One of the most embarrasing things I've ever seen on a stage.

    I sure hope jazz hasn't come to that.

  43. #142

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    A lot of my favorite pop music from, say, 50s-80s isn't all that musically complex. But one thing I have noticed that has been dying out is a good melodic hook. You can sometimes see them struggling, but they can't quite seem to write melodies anymore. It all sounds like harmony instead of melody.

  44. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by One_Note View Post
    A lot of my favorite pop music from, say, 50s-80s isn't all that musically complex. But one thing I have noticed that has been dying out is a good melodic hook. You can sometimes see them struggling, but they can't quite seem to write melodies anymore. It all sounds like harmony instead of melody.
    It's all been done: 80s-early 90s songs like Ordinary World by the (I think) Brit pop group Duran Duran or Broken Wings by Mr. Mister were the last of that particular breed of song, IMO.

  45. #144
    Actually a band called Go West from thhat era was quite interesting. Richard Page from Mr.Mr. also has written so e great songs under the band name Pages.

    As we get away from real musicians being involved in actual Pop Music. We are left with simplistic background for the singers to sell their songs
    This why music so awfully these days. But it goes further since we are not funding all aspects from arrangers,engineers,musicians,etc.

    The same holds true for any field that is underfunded. No one that's any good works for free or promises of exposure to their name. Until this changes, We are stuck with older music as the only alternative.

    Another question to most of you. How many here are or were making their living in the music industry ? If not would you work for free at your day job?

  46. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    So what's changed?
    Today we were performing the overture to a show to a large audience, and the people were talking louder than we were playing!
    Then, when we finished and segued into the first number with a vocalist, they started shushing each other, and the hall was completely quiet.

    Some of them must have felt guilty or something, because a bunch of them told us we sounded great after the show was over.
    I think Mozart himself had experiences like that. When the overture starts, the average audience think that the orchestra is still tuning. They don't hear a difference, partly because they hear with the eyes and musicians are but shadows, hidden in an orchestra pit or behind a curtain. (The instrument soloist, a rare bird in contemporary pop, sometimes catches a beam of limelight).

    Jazz is fun because musicians get attention...provided there's an audience...

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57 View Post

    As we get away from real musicians being involved in actual Pop Music. We are left with simplistic background for the singers to sell their songs
    This why music so awfully these days. But it goes further since we are not funding all aspects from arrangers,engineers,musicians,etc.

    The same holds true for any field that is underfunded. No one that's any good works for free or promises of exposure to their name. Until this changes, We are stuck with older music as the only alternative.
    We must now activate human resistance against Skynet, the nework of machines, DAWs and AI that's in control of the music business and threatens life as we know it. A Terminator looking like Dizzy Gillespie and with the voice of Arnold Schwarzenegger has been sent to the future from 1942 with a mission to restore order." I need your clothes, your boots, and your trumpet".

    You know jads, The music industry is not the only sector where computers replace humans. Many jobs are gone. Fortunately, music is a free form of art that will find new ways going forward. Meanwhile, being the caretaker of older music could be a healthy niche as the fan base is significant. People, young and old, love to hear live music by real musicians.

  48. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    Then, when we finished and segued into the first number with a vocalist, they started shushing each other, and the hall was completely quiet.
    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    provided there's an audience...
    Yeah well .. Music isn't the main attraction. What people are after are emotions .. Emotions are embedded in story telling .. Story telling is lyrics and a strong voice.

  49. #148
    Dont know, always I listen "todays music its bad because now you turn on the TV and theres..." or "look who is selling most tickets now...", i just can think "so ? that really cares ?".

    I mean, why its important which musician is the most selling nowadays ?

    Music is many things, for other people music its a show to go and have fun, its a party time, not about listen the arrangements and the complex melody.

    Nowadays you want classical music ? Shure theres an orchestra should be playing something.

    You want jazz ? Shure theres jazz at some place.

    It doesnt cares what music is the top selling.

    With internet now everyone can make a specific forum of each music and just have full of what they want.

    Doesnt matter if the artist you like its not rich and cant tour all over the world, now artists can upload their music and be shared with the whole world. At least i dont care about go to listen music to a big crowded place to legitimize the music work of the musician. Music is just important if the musician can live a filthy life earned by his music ?

    And always think that all we into music, are going to be spreading the appreciation of "music for musicians" and music its going to be going on.

  50. #149

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    The words "too many notes, Mozart" attributed to Emperor Joseph II on hearing The Marriage of Figaro reflect a reality: that which can induce states of rapture in musicians often has an overloading or numbing effect on others. Watcha gonna do?

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    I think Mozart himself had experiences like that. When the overture starts, the average audience think that the orchestra is still tuning. They don't hear a difference, partly because they hear with the eyes and musicians are but shadows, hidden in an orchestra pit or behind a curtain. (The instrument soloist, a rare bird in contemporary pop, sometimes catches a beam of limelight).

    Jazz is fun because musicians get attention...provided there's an audience...
    In Mozart’s era the orchestra wasn’t hidden, that was Wagners innovation