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  1. #1

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    where from we can learn more efective?
    youtube is a great place with a big potencial...I think.
    Best
    Kris

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Youtube is so convenient.

    Youtube is where I learned most of what I know about recording and mixing. I think the "Reaper Mania" videos are excellent.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  4. #3

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    I am someone who has hands on experience with this: 2 undergraduate music degrees both in college and university...I can say it was 10 years of waste!!!...Be careful of what you wish for enrolling in music school...You won't learn anything there...Practicing at home is where the magic happens!!!

  5. #4

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    I just did a 1 year program at our local community college. I learned a lot.

    I also learned a lot going to music camps. Johnny Gimble Swing Camp ( no longer done )
    I now go to Ashokan Western and Swing camp. June 23-29, 2019 Western+Swing Week - Ashokan Music and Dance

    My first camp was the Johnny Gimble. I learned more about music and performing in 1 week than I did in the 40 years before.

    I have not explored you tube for lessons.

  6. #5

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    Content is the differentiator more so than medium, methinks.

  7. #6

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    I can’t imagine this is a serious question?


    Music school is what you make of it.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
    I can’t imagine this is a serious question?


    Music school is what you make of it.
    This is a serious question.
    I think if you know how to use potenial of youtube you can learn a lot of things that you can not find in any of the school...there are a lot of information-metods and there are a lot of jazz music/concerts,full cd...etc/.
    Some of jazz clinics or education videos are fantastic...etc.
    Best
    Kris

  9. #8

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    Sure, and music school is a professional setting with professional teachers who use widely recognized/approved materials and places a student in an 8ish hour a day setting where you focus on nothing but music, surrounded by your peers, all focused on

    ear training
    sight singing
    theory
    conducting
    lessons on your instrument
    keyboard lessons
    performances
    History
    giving and taking criticism



    i could literally go on for an hour. I’ll save us both the time. Here’s what YT will never do.

    first year in music school, I’m at a lesson, working on a piece. I’m playing it pretty well, but had a couple reading/memory stumbles.

    My teacher stops and tells me memorize this by next week, no excuses. Implying that if i can’t, or I’m unwilling, music school isn’t gonna work out for me.

    in 2 years I went from never having touched a classical guitar, to performing a Bach fugue at a recital. I would never have made those kinds of gains without a structured environment where I was immersed in music and receiving a swift kick in the ass from my teachers when I needed it.

  10. #9

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    No offense but the question as stated is overly broad. School is for serious commitment. Youtube is for funny cat videos.

    OTOH - this is the information age and the internet age. There is a lot of content online.

    But to vintagelove's point there is no accountability to Youtube. One can simply watch from an armchair. There is no requirement to do anything. A school will include entrance requirements, grade you as you go along, and "counsel you out" of music if you demonstrate a pattern of not cutting it.

    I've made the point a number of times but I would reiterate that one should be overly prepared and overly qualified when approaching school - if possible. Why? Because of all the other time consuming activities (general education requirements, keyboard, theory, etc., etc.) One has to be a very good time manager and even then there may not be enough time to practice with everything you've got.

    Another alternative to showing up overqualified is to take 6-8 years to go through the 4 year program.

    Music is quite a bit different from other fields of study.

  11. #10

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    This will be an interesting discussion, I can tell already.

    My two cents
    • both have pros and cons
    • they are not interchangeable
    • its not a matter of one or the other; no reason not to use both resources
    • a lot of what you get out of any methodology comes down to the individual


    My own undergrad degree in music has been extremely valuable to me. Concentrated effort and guided study with professional players produced significant improvement in all of my musical skills in a relatively short amount of time, as opposed to the alternative of making unfocused and inconsistent effort over a lifetime. I also studied privately post grad, simply because I wanted to learn what certain players could teach, regardless of the fact that it was not part of my undergrad curriculum. I still find extremely interesting and useful info on YouTube and other internet sites, and I incorporate it into my playing. A comprehensive education in music will allow you to incorporate that YouTube tidbit into a cohesive framework instead of thinking of it as a parlor trick that you might not know how to apply outside of context.

    My suggestion: do both, work hard, find schools/players/teachers that resonate with you, and plan to make sustained effort for a long time.

    SJ

  12. #11

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    Hmm, Med School or Web MD?



    As much as I respect Kris' presence (and playing) here, I'm not sure the thread title and thread questions really match.

    To be fair, "it depends" on what one is actually trying to accomplish.

    If you're a beginner guitarist, I would recommend a good teacher.
    If one needs a degree (some positions require degrees), and wants to learn music, and can afford it, then go for music school [I have a music degree, as well as non-music graduate degrees].
    If one wants to simply "play jazz better," then I'd recommend a good teacher, and lots of playing with others!

    "Effective learning," as Kris asked, means different things for different people, since we all learn differently; again, though, "music school vs youtube" is not the full list of options.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcwhy View Post
    Hmm, Med School or Web MD?



    As much as I respect Kris' presence (and playing) here, I'm not sure the thread title and thread questions really match.
    Completely different than Med School. And Kris is a good example. His posts/opinions carry extra weight as he posts videos of his excellent playing on the forum. Like it or not, that does make a difference.

    Jazz existed well before it became academic. And having a buddy show you how to play a tune is a long time way of learning. Youtube can be a lot like that.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  14. #13

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    My take is why would you go to school to play the guitar? Playing the guitar is not an academic journey. It's about developing the chops. Maybe the Musicians Institute or Berklee are worthy, I don't know. Weigh in here, please. But what I do know is that if I had spent more time on learning riffs and solos back in the day instead of wasting time on scales, modes and theory, I would have been much better off.

  15. #14

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    My opinion, the really good players got good whether they went to music college or not. Plenty of examples on both sides of the fence. The really good players find a way. (and I'm not putting myself in that category).

    And there are plenty who went to music college that are not in that really good player category.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    Completely different than Med School. And Kris is a good example. His posts/opinions carry extra weight as he posts videos of his excellent playing on the forum. Like it or not, that does make a difference.

    Jazz existed well before it became academic. And having a buddy show you how to play a tune is a long time way of learning. Youtube can be a lot like that.
    It's true that music school is not like med school, or any STEM school etc.

    But the "so and so can play better than you so therefore knows better than you" argument doesn't really stand up, for two reasons at a minimum.

    1. Kris didn't learn to play the guitar from Youtube videos.

    2. There are countless examples of the very finest players being utterly incapable of dispensing useful pedagogical advice. Do we really need to name names?

    Many of the best teachers in history seem to be good, but not great, performers.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    It's true that music school is not like med school, or any STEM school etc.

    But the "so and so can play better than you so therefore knows better than you" argument doesn't really stand up, for two reasons at a minimum.

    1. Kris didn't learn to play the guitar from Youtube videos.

    2. There are countless examples of the very finest players being utterly incapable of dispensing useful pedagogical advice. Do we really need to name names?

    Many of the best teachers in history seem to be good, but not great, performers.
    On the forum it does carry weight and grab attention. Just look at the following that Reg has... and that is not because he went to music school, which he did, it is because of how well he plays.

    For the most part jazz teachers are strong players, in my experience.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil59 View Post
    My take is why would you go to school to play the guitar? Playing the guitar is not an academic journey. It's about developing the chops. Maybe the Musicians Institute or Berklee are worthy, I don't know. Weigh in here, please. But what I do know is that if I had spent more time on learning riffs and solos back in the day instead of wasting time on scales, modes and theory, I would have been much better off.
    You don't go to music college to learn how to play the guitar. You go to learn how to take it to the higher/highest level (if you're capable), and over time - not in four years.

    Schools have entrance exams, although they get watered down for non-classical guitarists. (because they have to). In other words one is expected to already know how to play.

    In college, one learns the higher aspects of playing one's instrument, how to play effectively in various styles and ensemble configurations, how to define a roadmap for mastery over time, well chosen and directed repertoire, plus history, keyboard, theory and harmony, arranging and composition, conducting, etc.

    At the end a senior recital is required. One full hour of pro level performance is the standard. Pro level means pro, not virtuoso. If it meant the latter, schools would shut down tomorrow for insufficient enrollment.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    On the forum it does carry weight and grab attention. Just look at the following that Reg has... and that is not because he went to music school, which he did, it is because of how well he plays.

    For the most part jazz teachers are strong players, in my experience.
    OK - but what does "carrying weight on the forum" have to do with Youtube? Answer: Nothing.

    Regarding Reg, yes he went to Berklee and grad music school too if I recall. He says he already knew how to play and that makes sense. (Like Metheny and DiMeola, and yet they thought it valuable to go). But does that mean we're to believe that Reg learned NOTHING at Berklee? And then he went to grad school for more torture? Lol, that doesn't pass the sniff test. Yes, Reg can play and teach. Something tells me that his teaching capability increased in both undergrad and grad school, especially the latter. That would be true for most everyone who does the same. "Graduate assistant" teacher for undergrads and all that...

    I believe that John Williams and Christopher Parkening each went to music college too, after already being world class players. So the argument is what? 1. That they learned nothing further while in school?, or 2. whatever they learned could have been learned on Youtube had it existed? Not Skype lessons, but Youtube videos?!?

    Sorry, but I have to call BS.

    Finally, regarding instructors being "strong players" and all that. Well it's just semantics at this point. The market is such now that some really great performers teach in college because the live music marketplace is anemic. But most instructors over time, regardless of instrument or voice, jazz or classical, have been/are good as opposed to great, performers.

    Just remember - "Those who can do, those who can't teach, those who can't teach, teach Gym". :0

  20. #19

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    Are those the only options? I learned with neither.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  21. #20

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    Are those the only two options?

    No, it's a superficial question for a thread, based upon a false equivalence, designed to spur discussion.


    So far, it's working.


  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil59 View Post
    My take is why would you go to school to play the guitar? Playing the guitar is not an academic journey. It's about developing the chops. Maybe the Musicians Institute or Berklee are worthy, I don't know. Weigh in here, please. But what I do know is that if I had spent more time on learning riffs and solos back in the day instead of wasting time on scales, modes and theory, I would have been much better off.

    Hello, you asked folks to weigh in, so here’s a question. Please don’t take any offense to it, just consider the practical realities.

    Lets say we put a complex piece of guitar music in front of you, a Bach lute suite, the nocturnal, something of that level. How long do you think it would take you to figure it out with no help? How would you be sure you had all the ornaments correct? What method would you use for trills? Are all those rhythms correct? This is the kind of stuff having a teacher really helps with. I’ve even come across several errors in books, that because the teacher was familiar with the repertoire, he was able to say, “hey, go double check that note, I think it’s x”

    And perhaps the most important aspect of music school, you have to have recitals. There’s no, “I’ll take today off”. The date is approaching, and you still need to sort out xyz, better get in the practice room.


    lastly, this is completely personal, but not everyone is a great “self teacher”. There are so many paths you can take to the top of the mountain. It’s really helpful to have a guide or two along the way.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    You don't go to music college to learn how to play the guitar. You go to learn how to take it to the higher/highest level (if you're capable), and over time - not in four years.

    Schools have entrance exams, although they get watered down for non-classical guitarists. (because they have to). In other words one is expected to already know how to play.

    In college, one learns the higher aspects of playing one's instrument, how to play effectively in various styles and ensemble configurations, how to define a roadmap for mastery over time, well chosen and directed repertoire, plus history, keyboard, theory and harmony, arranging and composition, conducting, etc.

    At the end a senior recital is required. One full hour of pro level performance is the standard. Pro level means pro, not virtuoso. If it meant the latter, schools would shut down tomorrow for insufficient enrollment.
    Well, I don't understand this at all. History shows that the successful performers did not go to school. They played and networked. If you want to be in the music business as a teacher or professor who also plays sometimes, maybe the path could be more academic. But does that pay enough to justify the cost of the academic education? Among the many reasons for the student debt scandal are poor choice of "major" vs. earning power, poor choice of school and lack of discipline to stick with it. In other words, big debt and low or underpaid job IF you graduate.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
    Hello, you asked folks to weigh in, so here’s a question. Please don’t take any offense to it, just consider the practical realities.

    Lets say we put a complex piece of guitar music in front of you, a Bach lute suite, the nocturnal, something of that level. How long do you think it would take you to figure it out with no help? How would you be sure you had all the ornaments correct? What method would you use for trills? Are all those rhythms correct? This is the kind of stuff having a teacher really helps with. I’ve even come across several errors in books, that because the teacher was familiar with the repertoire, he was able to say, “hey, go double check that note, I think it’s x”

    And perhaps the most important aspect of music school, you have to have recitals. There’s no, “I’ll take today off”. The date is approaching, and you still need to sort out xyz, better get in the practice room.


    lastly, this is completely personal, but not everyone is a great “self teacher”. There are so many paths you can take to the top of the mountain. It’s really helpful to have a guide or two along the way.
    Sorry, that is a false comparison. First, classical music is a different ballgame. For that, I totally agree you need serious instruction. Second, the OP compared music school vs. youtube. What wasn't mentioned was individual instruction from a teacher, which can be valuable, and is essential in many cases. And yes, the discipline of music school, including deadlines, undoubtedly is valuable. But to succeed in the tough music business, you need the discipline, with or without school.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil59 View Post
    Well, I don't understand this at all. History shows that the successful performers did not go to school. They played and networked. If you want to be in the music business as a teacher or professor who also plays sometimes, maybe the path could be more academic. But does that pay enough to justify the cost of the academic education? Among the many reasons for the student debt scandal are poor choice of "major" vs. earning power, poor choice of school and lack of discipline to stick with it. In other words, big debt and low or underpaid job IF you graduate.
    Yes and no.

    Granted - history shows us that the successful performers (of folk music like jazz) did not go to school.
    Absolutely true! But then, why would they given that historically speaking, schools for same DID NOT EXIST.

    But they do now, and have for some time. And a few of these schools are pretty darned great. Lots and lots and lots of current scene jazz players have attended a jazz studies program. Some finished, others didn't.

    How many times has it been said on this very forum, even when criticizing schools, that the days of sitting in at Minton's are long, long gone, and that top schools provide a path?

    And "top performers"? Check the CVs of the very tip-top performers in your local, big city symphony. Can you say the same? Did they not go to school? You're darned right they did.

    And bringing up cost and debt are a diversion from the discussion. That's moving the goal posts, as they say. It's a legit topic on its own merit - but a different topic.

    This is about Youtube being the bee's knees for musical education. Remember?

    Cheers.

  26. #25

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    Personaly I am autodidact jazz guitarist/from1972/ and ofcourse I studied clasical music /guitar and doublebass/ in music school/1970-1978/.
    ...about jazz:
    I learnd a lot from jazz books/I've got a big collection/.I remember that I was one of the first in Polnand who practsed with Jamey Aebersold playa longs vinyls recordings...:-)
    I know that todays we live in completly different times but... but playing jazz guitar is a long process and I still learn it.
    I like new techonlogies and internet/youtube/.It is a great thing and effective if you know how to use it.
    ... playing jams and concerts -I never forget about it.
    Best
    Kris

  27. #26

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    I am self-taught as far as jazz goes. My source of info was ‘get it from the recordings’. I did get the Joe Pass chord book, that was about it. But I did start out with classical guitar lessons for a few years, which I think was a very good technical foundation (also made me learn to read).

    If I was starting now, I think I’d find the sheer amount of stuff on YouTube very confusing. I have purchased a few online lessons etc. but they were targeted at specific areas I wanted to work on, I knew exactly what I wanted to pursue. I got a couple of lessons by Bruce Forman and Andy Brown, a Peter Bernstein workshop and some Jerry Bergonzi dvds, I think that’s it.

  28. #27

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    I found on youtube great jazz recordings/full albums/ I never heard before...I know it is impossible to have everything...but..
    I learn from Cds a lot too.
    I know John Scofield been 3 years in Berklee College of Music and he still learn and transcribe from jazz recordings/Cds/.
    This is really hard work all of the time.
    kris

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil59 View Post
    Sorry, that is a false comparison. First, classical music is a different ballgame. For that, I totally agree you need serious instruction. Second, the OP compared music school vs. youtube. What wasn't mentioned was individual instruction from a teacher, which can be valuable, and is essential in many cases. And yes, the discipline of music school, including deadlines, undoubtedly is valuable. But to succeed in the tough music business, you need the discipline, with or without school.


    I don’t think it’s a false equivalence at all. First off, Jazz isn’t really much different from 20th century classical. Next I don’t see where it says “for jazz” in the op. Many music schools only have a classical department, or at very least they are new compared to their classical programs. Also, music school implies teachers. You don’t just go to music school and pick an choose what you want to study. You will have private lessons, you will have theory, ear training, recitals, etc...

    but all of that doesn’t even matter,


    you could easily take what i wrote and swap out the repetoire for that of Parker or Coltrane. It would still be the same. How would you know you have the best fingerings? How would you know if your “list of things a page long” were correct?

    Youtube will not help you.

    Music school will.

  30. #29

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    Music school with good teachers-yes.
    Some of the great jazz musicians never played classical music at all.
    I know that some of great jazz nusicians do not know music notation/ but they have great ears and fantastic memory/.
    Classical and jazz are different....anway I did not know clasical musician who learn his program only by ear.
    Kris

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    My opinion, the really good players got good whether they went to music college or not.
    And they were good before they got there.

    You don't learn to play in college. You try to perfect what you have, and you network, network, network.

    YouTube...if you're good at separating useful stuff from utter shit, you can probably learn how to play using videos. No substitute for a good private teacher who can see what you are doing wrong and help you correct it, though.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
    I don’t think it’s a false equivalence at all. First off, Jazz isn’t really much different from 20th century classical. Next I don’t see where it says “for jazz” in the op.
    This is a jazz forum so it's reasonable to think that's what we are talking about. I already agreed that school is essential for classical music.

  33. #32

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    These days, unless you really need that piece of paper in your hands(might open a few doors, maybe)......

    I'd go find a pro or old grumpy mentor in your area, and give them some money $$$ to teach you.....

  34. #33

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    These days, you DO need that piece of paper in your hand. In fact, to be really competitive you'll need two.

    So, earning an undergrad degree from a good to great music school is a good idea for a person intending to be a pro musician. If it doesn't work out you can enter graduate business school and earn your MBA. You'll need an undergraduate degree in order to pursue that path.

    Besides, you can always pursue a double major to provide yourself with more options. Or minor in music. And yes, still better than Youtube. :0

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    These days, you DO need that piece of paper in your hand. In fact, to be really competitive you'll need two.
    As far as playing jazz goes, nobody looks at a piece of paper. It's about actual music skills, paper, or not.

  36. #35

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    Fwiw, Metheny was never a student at Berklee. He taught there when he was 19, 20 years old after teaching briefly at university of Miami upon stepping away from a full scholarship.

    In fairness to Kris’s OP, imagine a young Pat Metheny in 1968 with access to the information that’s available on YT now.
    Last edited by whiskey02; 05-05-2019 at 08:58 PM.
    Ignorance is agony.



  37. #36

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    Maybe Youtube could be used by a sharp person to play Jazz at an elementary level? Learn to improvise on songs with elementary chord changes? I would think this is probably especially true if the person already knows how to play the guitar well and has good technical facility.

    But to play at the highest levels, whatever you would call "highest levels" (maybe songs with tough rhythms and lots of chord changes) I can see how a good school and teacher could help you break through and do it much faster.

    Interesting thread.....

  38. #37

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    In comparing youtube vs college one has to consider the expense and time commitment for each one. It seems based on supply and demand that the majority of college graduates in music are only going to have music as a hobby.

    I'm not opposed taking college music classes. Not too long ago I took music classes at a community colleges from excellent instructors like the bass player in the below video. And it was pretty close to free which included weekly private lessons from a local pro.

    Back in the 70s I used all my electives to take music classes from the University I attended. I also had the only guitar chair in the Big Band. But, I wasn't a music major. And, in the 70s it was feasible to consider music as a career. But, a piece of paper meant nothing.

    Back in the 70s college was pretty close to free in California.

    Unfortunately times have changed in many ways.

    Just wanted to show this video to illustrate the good instructors are not only at Berklee. This bass player, an instructor at San Diego State, UCSD and Mira Mesa Community College.

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    As far as playing jazz goes, nobody looks at a piece of paper. It's about actual music skills, paper, or not.
    Yes I know that but am not talking about that. Am talking about the same thing that you often talk about - that "there are no gigs" etc., and that going to music school mostly generates the next generation of teachers, etc., etc, etc.

    Suffice it to say that in big cities in the US one does need a degree to teach even in kiddie music schools. Many in my town have masters. It's very competitive. Now, out in smaller towns? Maybe not so much. So it's different depending on where you are, I'll grant you that.

    And - I'm also referring to "Plan B", and for the same reason - "there are no gigs", and - teaching music doesn't pay very well at all. So what is Plan B? Getting out of music after beating your head against the wall. My first manager in big tech was a former music major and music teacher in public schools. He had a wife and kids, and had had enough of being poor.

    Today's business and engineering schools are full of people from Asia. They earn their masters degrees and will often work for less than American born citizens. That has been, is now, and will continue to be the competition that USA born kids will face.

    I stand by what I said above.

    Ciao.

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey02 View Post
    Fwiw, Metheny was never a student at Berklee. He taught there when he was 19, 20 years old after teaching briefly at university of Miami upon stepping away from a full scholarship.

    In fairness to Kris’s OP, imagine a young Pat Metheny in 1968 with access to the information that’s available on YT now.
    I remember reading that he was a student at Miami, transferred to Berklee as a student (for about five days), and then they offered him a job. I don't have a source, it's been too long.

  41. #40

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    So, we have a verdict!

    Watching Youtube videos IS a more effective means for developing professional musical performance skills in the jazz style, than attending a reputable 4-year jazz studies program as a performance major.

    Whew, glad that's settled, and with the incredible help of all the experts who never majored in music themselves. Hooray for Youtube!

    Oh wait, can music majors watch Youtube also?

    Crap, the debate continues....

  42. #41

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    When I studied Jazz Performance, I barely got in. I wish that I had the skills I have today 12 years ago.

    That said, I had the time of my life when I studied music (I switched majors at the end of it all--it's worth enrolling in a good liberal arts college that has a strong music department--CCNY at CUNY had that for me).

    Most of my professors I've forgotten--except for Scott Reeves and Ray Gallon. But the students that I was lucky enough to play with--many of them went on to play in the top echelons of the craft. The students--more so than the teachers--taught me how to play jazz. Whether it was learning Cannonball Adderley licks with my classmate who played alto, listening to Brazilian grooves from the super trio from Brazil, accompanying the sultry-ist of sultry vocalists I've ever played with, or going to psycho-billy concerts (shout out to a fellow forum-ite, you know who you are )

    The social aspect is tantamount to learning jazz, even if you are hell-bent on becoming a solo guitarist ala George Van Eps. Even if you are interacting with a teacher--in person--that's part of the social fabric of the music. Youtube is great to gather new ideas, and watch live concerts--but you have to play with other people to really learn how to play.

    The bright side to all this is that playing with other people is way more fun than playing alone--especially if you can find a community of people that support your growth in a positive environment.

  43. #42

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    I didn't attend music college. But I'll bet I would have learned a lot about theory and music appreciation. And then there is the networking.

    I was recently watching Whiplash again. If that was what music college is like, sign me up. Someone slapping your face when you screw up is a motivator.

    Barring that, I learned the most in a band. I learned from other musicians, was motivated to learn songs I didn't know, and responded to the pressure of not failing in front of my band mates.

    Sitting in front of youtube is fun, but there is no pressure.
    MG

  44. #43

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    Youtube is incredibly scatterbrained. There's great stuff by Jens Larson, Barry Greene, Tim Lerch, Ruslan Sirota, Bob Reynolds, Adam Neely, Frank Vignola, Jimmy Bruno, and the list goes on and on. That said, the lessons cover breadth--not depth (that's also a complaint of many history teachers in grade school).

    With my first private instructor, I learned how to sight read, play all positions, and I went through Snidero's books for basic vocabulary and phrasing, and Galbraith's books on Bach and Comping--that was what I needed at the onset.

    With my second instructor, I learned Charlie Banaco's ear training material--the stuff that I used to obsess over here on the forum (I still do, I just don't talk about it as much)

    With my third instructor, I learned about George Van Eps's triads--he taught me how to approach the studies (LEGATO!), Segovia Scales (LEGATO)--I know there's a lot of people saying crap about Segovia's fingerings, but his principles got me out of the prison of position ONLY playing--and got me into shifting and feeling the notes throughout the neck. He also had me sing out of the George Wedge book. He also got me really into Freddie Green.

    After that, I took lessons from a trumpet player, a pianist, and a bassist. Finally, I landed upon my fourth instructor in LA. He got me into memorizing tunes in and out cold. We'd spend 3 weeks just learning the melody of a tune--I would never do that under my own devices because I'm too excitable.

    That's the thing, youtube doesn't work for people like me. If I just went by youtube, I'd be jumping around from video to video looking for the next cool thing. With a great private teacher, you stay focused on the small amount of material that you need at that point.

  45. #44

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    my 1 cent:
    We forgot that music school is just for few years for young people...and what happens after that?
    ...is everyone a professional musician after learning proces in the school?
    ... music education is really expensive.
    Everyone is different/talent,manual posibility...etc...one learn fast another longer/.
    Looks like really learnig process start after the school...It is really personal work.
    ...also I know some teachers that loose motivation for playing live concerts.It is bad.
    I think internet create some motivation...I do not think only about youtube...:-)

  46. #45

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    Is this really just an economic question? Youtube is free.

    I suppose we could debate which is more advisable financially speaking - singing or playing the guitar?

    I mean, guitars cost a lot of coin, but everyone has a voice. And singers get paid better and only have to carry a microphone, so...

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Yes I know that but am not talking about that. Am talking about the same thing that you often talk about - that "there are no gigs" etc., and that going to music school mostly generates the next generation of teachers, etc., etc, etc.

    Suffice it to say that in big cities in the US one does need a degree to teach even in kiddie music schools. Many in my town have masters. It's very competitive. Now, out in smaller towns? Maybe not so much. So it's different depending on where you are, I'll grant you that.

    And - I'm also referring to "Plan B", and for the same reason - "there are no gigs", and - teaching music doesn't pay very well at all. So what is Plan B? Getting out of music after beating your head against the wall. My first manager in big tech was a former music major and music teacher in public schools. He had a wife and kids, and had had enough of being poor.

    Today's business and engineering schools are full of people from Asia. They earn their masters degrees and will often work for less than American born citizens. That has been, is now, and will continue to be the competition that USA born kids will face.

    I stand by what I said above.

    Ciao.



    Teaching music pays very well.

    I wouldnt even consider giving up my gig to go “on the road”.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Is this really just an economic question? Youtube is free.

    I suppose we could debate which is more advisable financially speaking - singing or playing the guitar?

    I mean, guitars cost a lot of coin, but everyone has a voice. And singers get paid better and only have to carry a microphone, so...
    The best way is singing guitar player.

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    The best way is singing guitar player.
    Honestly, I've been working on my singing, and playing more and more songs that toe that jazz/country music line...and I'm pretty sure I'll be able to actually gig it regularly, once it's ready for prime time, so to speak.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  50. #49

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    Music school is a great way to link up and play with other people. I experienced an incredible amount of frustration trying to learn online. The community colleges out here in CA are super cheap, and some of them are amazing. Plus, learning online makes me musically lonely. Of course doing one doesn’t exclude the other. Utilizing online resources makes a whole lot more sense when there is a direct application available.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by srlank View Post
    Music school is a great way to link up and play with other people. I experienced an incredible amount of frustration trying to learn online. The community colleges out here in CA are super cheap, and some of them are amazing. Plus, learning online makes me musically lonely. Of course doing one doesn’t exclude the other. Utilizing online resources makes a whole lot more sense when there is a direct application available.
    Recently, I have someone I collaborate with across country. We send tracks back and forth as we record a tune. It's a great outlet for my music and keeps me focused and motivated. It helps that my buddy is good at a bunch of instruments. That's as close to being in a band as I would want.

    The community college I went to, top rate professors. I had a professor/phd that was teaching at UCSD which is international known for avant-garde classical. She left and taught at the community college as she preferred the whole employment package. Some of the adjunct teachers were local pros that taught at both schools. The difference though is in the average quality of the fellow students with the community college having some students that couldn't get into the 4 year colleges music program. But, the price sure is right at the community college, pretty close to free.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)