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  1. #51

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    Yes community colleges in the right town are great, and are "feeder schools" to the big ones just across town. (and their instructors just may have graduated from the bigger schools).

    And yes, dirt cheap. A great option for a young person trying to decide, or an older person trying to have fun...

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  3. #52

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    It’s true that a community college can include beginners as well as more advanced musicians. I don’t find this particularly hampering, as we have a number of combos and classes for various levels at the college that I attend. Our department had 9 combos this past semester. 3 of them were really, really good and able to get some nice experience gigging in the community. All 9 of them got to do at least one gig. And personally, I love the idea of inclusion anyway. On the flip side of this, I’ve met some amazing musicians who were sought out by 4-year music departments, but did not yet have a strong enough GPA or enough academic requirements fulfilled to get into the school itself. Some other advanced players attended CC, because the 4 years get increasingly expensive every year and have simply priced folks out.

    eQUOTE=fep;952237]Recently, I have someone I collaborate with across country. We send tracks back and forth as we record a tune. It's a great outlet for my music and keeps me focused and motivated. It helps that my buddy is good at a bunch of instruments. That's as close to being in a band as I would want.

    The community college I went to, top rate professors. I had a professor/phd that was teaching at UCSD which is international known for avant-garde classical. She left and taught at the community college as she preferred the whole employment package. Some of the adjunct teachers were local pros that taught at both schools. The difference though is in the average quality of the fellow students with the community college having some students that couldn't get into the 4 year colleges music program. But, the price sure is right at the community college, pretty close to free.[/QUOTE]

  4. #53

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    I went to music school for 2 years out of highschool. I don't regret a minute of it. I graduated debt free by working at a fish counter in the super market.
    White belt
    My Youtube

  5. #54

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    A few years ago, I tried to enroll at a junior college to take a course with an accomplished local Jazz Guitarist. The price was awesomely cheap. Unfortunately, after repeated visits to the college (at the expense of taking time off from work), I could not get past the enrollment process. They were too unorganized and I guess the Jazz course was very low on their priority.

    I tried to meet with the department head but the person was never there when she was supposed to be. I eventually gave up.

    I think it would have been such a great opportunity.

  6. #55

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    Quastions:
    Good teacher-can be also a good player?...
    Good player-can be also a good teacher?...
    ...anway I learn a lot from good players...:-)

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    A few years ago, I tried to enroll at a junior college to take a course with an accomplished local Jazz Guitarist. The price was awesomely cheap. Unfortunately, after repeated visits to the college (at the expense of taking time off from work), I could not get past the enrollment process. They were too unorganized and I guess the Jazz course was very low on their priority.

    I tried to meet with the department head but the person was never there when she was supposed to be. I eventually gave up.

    I think it would have been such a great opportunity.
    that is aggravating to hear!!!
    White belt
    My Youtube

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    Quastions:
    Good teacher-can be also a good player?...
    Good player-can be also a good teacher?...
    ...anway I learn a lot from good players...:-)
    of course can be, but one does not necessarily mean the other.
    White belt
    My Youtube

  9. #58

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    Generally I'm not in support of people spending 4 years in expensive music school, but I will say this...there's definitely a lot to be gained from immersion and I'm sure that applies to jazz. Living/eating/breathing music for a while - no doubt that would help one improve. Having said, in my experience, if you really apply yourself you can achieve something kinda similar without music school - but it's very hard and depends on a lot of luck in finding reasonably like-minded players.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by srlank View Post
    It’s true that a community college can include beginners as well as more advanced musicians. I don’t find this particularly hampering, as we have a number of combos and classes for various levels at the college that I attend. Our department had 9 combos this past semester. 3 of them were really, really good and able to get some nice experience gigging in the community. All 9 of them got to do at least one gig.
    Sounds like a great program, where is this?
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  11. #60

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    Yes, many of the masters of the past did not go to school. But they learned from more experienced players. Got private instructions when they were kids. They learned from each others before, during and after performances. They lived music. Youtube can't give you that. It's arguable if a music school can.
    I can understand the comparison between going to school vs getting private instruction from a good teacher. Theory, harmony, ear training, performance etc. They can all be learned better one on one then in a class room. You can join workshops in your city for ensemble experience or get a band together. But you won't have the same networking potential.
    Youtube is useful only if you're already a mature musician who can pick out the signal from the noise and know how to best benefit from the scattered material out there.

  12. #61

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    On my lunch break at a large electronics company, where I get to design aviation glass-cockpit devices. Great job, and I'm blessed to have it.

    Tonight I'll go home and play and write music until I pass out from exhaustion. If I decide to learn something new--I'll log on to TrueFire--Larry Carlton, Frank Vignola, Sheryl Bailey, and the others ALWAYS have something to teach me.

    It's my life, and I love it. No formal music training past 6 months of lessons back in 1973 when my dad bought me my first guitar.

    But if I could be 19 again, I would work my chops up enough to pass the UMKC Jazz Program audition, and I would be in that program. If I failed the audition, I'd go back again until I passed it.

    But that's me.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    Sounds like a great program, where is this?
    Long Beach City College

  14. #63

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    It will be interesting quastion:
    What did learn John Coltrane in Music College?
    classical music?

  15. #64

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    I don't know how things are in Poland, but jazz is American music first and foremost. The latest Downbeat magazine has a large section devoted to school jazz awards. I find it to be very inspiring. Lots of programs, lots of young hard working players, lots of enthusiasm and passion for jazz.

    It is understandable how things would be a lot different in Poland and how the internet may the primary access tool for learning jazz.

    Perhaps you could come over here, visit a few big programs, and get a different perspective.

  16. #65

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    The old finishing school of jazz was through apprenticeships with the established bandleaders.
    These bands performed locally and on the road with great frequency.
    The economy has shifted as has the circumstance for gigging opportunities.
    An extended run at a club is almost non-existant. Working in multiple situations is now a necessity
    for survival and no longer a choice for most.

    The jazz school model was built as a counterpart image of the classical music programs.
    Some of the African American cultural aspect of this music have been downplayed although
    the spirit and understanding of some individual teachers finds it's way into the classroom.
    There are undoubtably a greater number of technically proficient players emerging from these programs.
    The important jazz esthetic of "individual voice" hasn't translated as well as a result of the curriculum approach.

    The internet has made available amazing resources. In school for instance, we bought two books for score analysis
    with microscopic print and now ISMLP makes available a large selection of public domain music history for free.
    Jazz transcriptions are available in abundance. Streaming services, youtube, etc. put unheard of music libraries at easy
    access for free or cheap subscription fee. Furthermore are videos of masterclasses, workshops by master musicians
    and all manner of self appointed experts with varying levels of knowledge and teaching skills.
    There are many doctorate music thesis available online. Resources exist in abundance.

    Still there is a difference between what happens on a computer screen and live interactions.
    A difference between a youtube concert (although valuable) and being in the room.
    Between watching an interview and hanging out with a master musician.
    Playing with tracks and playing with humans. Etc.

    College offers human engagement with teachers and peers. Not being in school requires each
    individual create such interactions. Either way, the truly motivated will not be denied.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    I don't know how things are in Poland, but jazz is American music first and foremost. The latest Downbeat magazine has a large section devoted to school jazz awards. I find it to be very inspiring. Lots of programs, lots of young hard working players, lots of enthusiasm and passion for jazz.

    It is understandable how things would be a lot different in Poland and how the internet may the primary access tool for learning jazz.

    Perhaps you could come over here, visit a few big programs, and get a different perspective.
    There are about 200 jazz festivals in 2019/Poland/.
    I have some friends studied in Berklee and another jazz schools in US.
    My old friend Garrison Fewell been a profesor in Berklee...
    Actually I have big collection about 300 books and vid from USA/about jazz guitar,ear traing,theory etc/.
    I think I got too much eductional staff to study today...
    I like all of them jazz schools,youtube ,books, Cds,edu videos/my favorite John Scofield "On Improvisation"-I transcribed all this great Scof's video/.
    Jazzingly
    Kris

  18. #67

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    Hey, Folks!

    No comparison. Look at how many players learned through a music school/degree vs. learning through youtube. 100,000 vs. 3? Music school will get you there faster because it demands commitment, perseverance, dedication, and discipline. Music schools have well designed curriculums that have stood the test of time. Except for a very few examples, almost no step-by-step curriculums are on the internet for free - just a bunch of isolated pieces of data. Unless you know HOW to put that all together and in WHAT ORDER, you will not get very much beyond your bedroom with Youtube data. That's what good/great teachers are for. They know what works and what is a waste of time.

    Data/information without a curriculum is pretty worthless. It's like taking a dictionary and trying to learn how to speak a language. Pretty damn impossible! AND 99.9% of the people trying to learn from the internet DO NOT possess the enormous focused discipline needed to do it by oneself. Don't kid yourself - you ain't that guy or gal!

    There is some really good video learning products out there, but they are not for free and shouldn't be. There are some good guided things on Truefire. Artistworks has some good stuff. Brent Mason on JamPlay is good. I like Robert Conti's materials because it is all there: improvisation (at a variety of levels), harmony/chord melody, comping, relevant theory, tunes/repertoire, hours and hours of step-by-step instruction from a master teacher, and wonderful jazz lines. Except for reading exercises on the guitar, it is all there. A full curriculum.

    There are bits and pieces of information on Youtube that are very interesting. BUT, by and large there is NO comparison to what you can learn in a good music school with good teachers. That last point is really important - good teachers! They can save you a bunch of time that would otherwise be wasted. You get what you PAY for. NOTHING worthwhile comes for free. Put in your time, pay your dues, work with great people, and stick with it. That's the ONLY road to success. 'Nuff said

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass View Post
    I was recently watching Whiplash again. If that was what music college is like, sign me up. Someone slapping your face when you screw up is a motivator.
    I thought Whiplash was a fun story, and I liked the soundtrack, but it is NOT, repeat NOT, what music college is really like.

    When you have the privilege of being taught 1:1 by a national-act player who NEVER screws up, NEVER has a bad day, can read ANYTHING, whose throwaway ideas are better than your BEST stuff... no abuse is necessary. And, as others have pointed out, your fellow students are a learning resource and motivational resource unto themselves. The real-time interactivity of any ensemble, lesson or jam is something that YouTube can't yet offer. Plus, yeah, music school was the most fun I've ever had working the hardest I ever have.
    Last edited by starjasmine; 05-09-2019 at 02:07 PM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    It will be interesting quastion:
    What did learn John Coltrane in Music College?
    classical music?
    He went to Granoff School of Music in Philly, as did McCoy tyner, Sonny Fortune, Dizzy Gillespie.

    At Granoff, Trane studied theory with autodidact guitarist/theorist Dennis Sandole, who became Trane's mentor and introduced to him all the advanced harmonic concepts that became the foundation of Trane's approach to harmony.

    While he didn't study at Granoff for long, the relationship with Sandole lasted until Coltrane died.

  21. #70

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  22. #71

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  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    where from we can learn more efective?
    youtube is a great place with a big potencial...I think.
    Best
    Kris
    Yeah youtube has promise but has some big problems associated with it.

    First of all youtube incentivises the content creator to produce certain types of content in order to be successful.

    So, if I do a video on Kurt Rosenwinkel lines with some click bait title it will do better than a video addressing basic aspects of people's playing. Teach licks of famous players and review gear and you'll do better than if you talk about rhythm and time/feel.

    There's nothing wrong with it per se for hobbyists but it's not what you need to become an advanced, employable player. I notice Jens intersperses videos with a more fundamental subject matter in between his more lick oriented YT material, for instance, trying to get a good mix. I'd be interested to know how the viewing figures compare form vid to vid.

    Adam Neely, David Bruce and other YT'ers have made an attempt to add more interactivity and feedback to students.

    I've basically ignored this, but my channel is growing very slowly lol.

    Secondly, no quality control. There's a lot of people out there who don't know what they are talking about. Less so I think if jazz, but channels like Rick Beato vary wildly in terms of quality. Jazzers I think are more likely to do their research and come across relatively obscure gems like Rotem Sivan's channel or What I Learned From Barry Harris.

    Thirdly, people will generally only search for things they want to find out about. The purpose of a teacher is sometimes to tell a student about something the haven't considered, or something they don't want to hear. In that sense it absolutely cannot replace tuition.

    IRL I often bump into people who watch my videos (!) including my bandmates lol. Jazz guitar is a small world after all.

    As a teacher I find players need things from me they have failed to learn from watching YouTube videos. Often this is just me nagging them about certain aspects of their playing lol.

    Fourthly, YT seems to emphasising frequency of upload in its algorithm. This has a couple of problems associated with it, less quality control, but also a tendency for YT'ers to go into it 'professionally' which means you get a class

    Fifthly, what you put on YT is viewable by anyone in the world. In this sense there is a strong incentive to make everything perfect, polished, and professional.

    What I end up including in my videos by necessity as much as choice - and something I've noticed about one of the big guitar YT'ers Music is Win - is a documentation of the process. I think it's good that people see me **** up. I know Bruce Foreman says that people vlogging their practice is like airing dirty laundry, but I think an hour of me watching Bruce practicing would actually be incredibly helpful. Probably as much so as any Music Masterclass vid.

    But Bruce is an old school guy - has a strong demarcation between public and private

  24. #73

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    I'd like to point out some content on youtube that's been actually a little off the usual tuition video format. The most imaginative is probably Adam Neely and those influenced by him such as David Bruce.


    • The Gig Vlog - Neely does these every so often, and I think it's a really good idea because it shows budding musicians what the day to day of professional music looks like.
    • Critique - again Neely does this, but not the only one. Viewers submit examples of their playing for feedback.
    • Demonstration of music games etc
    • Demonstration of transcription - I've done this. It's hard to do because it's actually very boring to watch, and would turn a lot of viewers off. Music is Win uses a fast forward approach, which might be a good compromise... You can see the work, but you don't have to sit through it in real time. Also I transcribe reasonably quickly (although still slow enough to be boring), so I don't want that to intimidating for beginners.


    Anyway I find the nascent YT music ecosystem very interesting, and may look into it as part of my PG dip/MA. There's been a couple of papers written about it, and a book with some essays on this type of learning but not a huge amount. If you are really interested Kris, could provide citations.

  25. #74

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    Ofcourse.
    I talked about my exoierience.
    I sad before you have to know how to use youtube...f.ex.I learn a lot from another instruments also/sax,piano...etc/...great staff from
    Master Class with Dave Frank or
    Scott McGill .

  26. #75
    I will answer the question for you honestly. Jazz is a folk music. You learn on the street, on the gig, in the practice room, with a teacher (and in modern times) on youtube.

    HOWEVER, music school is an absolute NECESSITY in modern times for networking and making a living. I would go as far as to say you need a minimum of a master's degree these days. The reason is that even in NYC, there are not enough gigs to make a living at 99% of jazz musicians are teaching to make ends meet. Most jazz colleges in the USA won't even read your resume unless you have a masters degree in music.

    A few years ago, I looked into getting a teaching gig at a COMMUNITY COLLEGE and was told that they aren't even reviewing resumes unless you have a PhD in music or had a pedigree that included having played with people on the level of Miles, Wynton, etc.

  27. #76

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    I know the problem....this is simillar situation in Poland.
    Some of the great musicians start professors cariers and stoped playing gigs-this is another problem.
    Not easy jazz market.

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    I will answer the question for you honestly. Jazz is a folk music. You learn on the street, on the gig, in the practice room, with a teacher (and in modern times) on youtube.

    HOWEVER, music school is an absolute NECESSITY in modern times for networking and making a living. I would go as far as to say you need a minimum of a master's degree these days. The reason is that even in NYC, there are not enough gigs to make a living at 99% of jazz musicians are teaching to make ends meet. Most jazz colleges in the USA won't even read your resume unless you have a masters degree in music.

    A few years ago, I looked into getting a teaching gig at a COMMUNITY COLLEGE and was told that they aren't even reviewing resumes unless you have a PhD in music or had a pedigree that included having played with people on the level of Miles, Wynton, etc.
    Spot on, really.

    There really aren't many jazz gigs to go around...so you gotta have a network. And you ain't gonna have a network if you learn how to play sitting on your couch.

    And yes, no chance of teaching at the college level without BARE MINIMUM masters.

    The difference of course, is at the collegiate level, teaching is very, very different. Your students want to be there, and it's pretty much up to them to learn.

    Finish up with just a bachelors, realize you wouldn't mind owning a house with a yard or having a kid some day, and end up teaching high school "general music" to a room full of kids meeting a graduation requirement...yeah...a bit different.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  29. #78

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    Well doing a masters right now lol.

    It’s a bit easier Uk side, stories about the states doesn’t surprise I’ve heard similar reports.

    I’m finding that although I started the course with the intent to get more work and hopefully it will do that, I am very interested in how jazz was and is taught and how people learn it.

    YouTube is an interesting phenomenon. For one thing it allows niche interests to focus in one place internationally. Online activity for better or worse is beginning to form more and more of a part of musicians lives. Just try getting a gig without a social media following....

  30. #79

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    To me, teaching music even at the university level is quite a different career than being a jazz musician. One's interest in one, doesn't imply the other. Teaching programming at college is not the same thing as working as a programmer. Teaching kids tennis is not the same thing as being a tennis pro on tour.
    I bet in terms of having a fulfilling career, teaching music vs making a living as a giggin jazz musician do not statistically correlate more than making a living designing furniture vs living as a gigging jazz musician (perhaps correlates even less lol).
    My point is that if one is going to pursue graduate level music education because there aren't enough gigs to support their living, they have to ask themselves if teaching music is really better then something else they can pursue as their day job. They can still be a giging level musician if they are serious about music. They may end up even having more free time to practice in many other professions then in academia.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 05-09-2019 at 07:23 PM.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    To me, teaching music even at the university level is quite a different career than being a jazz musician. One's interest in one, doesn't imply the other. Teaching programming a college is not the same thing as working as a programmer. Teaching kids tennis is not the same thing as being a tennis pro on tour.
    I bet in terms of having a fulfilling career, teaching music vs making a living as a giggin jazz musician do not statistically correlate more than making a living designing furniture vs living as a gigging jazz musician (perhaps correlates even less lol).
    My point is that if one is going to pursue graduate level music education because there aren't enough gigs to support living, they have to ask themselves if teaching music is really better then something else they can pursue as their day job. They can still be a giging level musician if they are serious about music. They may end up even having more free time to practice in many other professions then in academia.
    Well teaching at college can help keep you "dialed in" to the very "network" that everyone is talking about here. Easier to make connections and get wind of happenings from the inside than the outside, so to speak.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    My point is that if one is going to pursue graduate level music education because there aren't enough gigs to support living, they have to ask themselves if teaching music is really better then something else they can pursue as their day job. They can still be a giging level musician if they are serious about music. They may end up even having more free time to practice in many other professions then in academia.
    Well said. This helps to focus the discussion.

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil59 View Post
    Well said. This helps to focus the discussion.
    A discussion that has primarily focussed on academia and the cost/benefit aspect of jazz study, not YouTube. I think we have to address it.

    Despite the issues I identified above, youtube and distance learning in general is becoming increasingly important - we are seeing a shift towards more distance learning courses in general. Partly because the marginal cost is much lower for the colleges, tending towards zero (Berklee still charges more than an Ivy league uni for distance learning courses of course lol.)

    People like Adam Neely - online influencers - are going to become the types of people that forward looking conservatoires are going to want to attract to their faculties, if only in a visiting capacity. I think Berklee is plugged into this, plus Neely is a alum so it makes sense. (Neely's a great player of course, but I don't think he's unusual for NYC.)

    And lets not forget that part of the renaissance in interest in Barry Harris is informed by YouTube videos. 10-15 years ago his classes were empty, now they are packed.

    Even Jacob Collier fits into this paradigm. While it's obvious he would have found a way into music whatever happened, his meteoric rise is entirely down to YouTube. His art form is built around what works well on the platform, even his live shows (he seems aware of this, the dressing gown at the Albert Hall was a cheeky touch.)

    I would say this is the future, but it's clearly the present. The future is something we haven't thought of yet....

    Anyway, if a 90 year old man can by a YT influencer, I think this is something open to us all.

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    To me, teaching music even at the university level is quite a different career than being a jazz musician. One's interest in one, doesn't imply the other. Teaching programming at college is not the same thing as working as a programmer. Teaching kids tennis is not the same thing as being a tennis pro on tour.
    This is a more complex issue - I think this is more the case perhaps in the classical world - when I studied classical singing, the teachers were not performers necessarily - they were focussed on teaching. You'd get coaches too, and have masterclasses with famous singers and so on.

    Many classical graduates go into teaching exclusively, stop playing of course. That's true of jazz graduates too, but I don't think you end up teaching jazz that way.

    In jazz I do think there's an emphasis on performance background, and I wouldn't feel comfortable having a teacher who wasn't an active performer. I think that's because so much of the learning is done on the bandstand. It's a different thing. There's a general realisation that jazz has to be learned experientially (as Jack mentions) and that a teaching and performing career support each other, that performance is always a process, a work in progress. This is one of the things that attracts me to the music.

    Part of the reason for this of course, is that jazz performance is not really a profession. Tristano, for example, was quite opposed to the idea. No musician moves to NYC to make a comfortable living.

    OTOH if you are an opera singer, you want to be a finished, polished product able to do professional work. It's a linear thing.

  35. #84

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    "Jazz is a folk music. You learn on the street, on the gig, in the practice room, with a teacher (and in modern times) on youtube."
    +1 for Jack.

    so what is a Jazz Music?
    ...is everyone can play it in advanced level?...

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    This is a more complex issue - I think this is more the case perhaps in the classical world - when I studied classical singing, the teachers were not performers necessarily - they were focussed on teaching. You'd get coaches too, and have masterclasses with famous singers and so on.

    Many classical graduates go into teaching exclusively, stop playing of course. That's true of jazz graduates too, but I don't think you end up teaching jazz that way.

    In jazz I do think there's an emphasis on performance background, and I wouldn't feel comfortable having a teacher who wasn't an active performer. I think that's because so much of the learning is done on the bandstand. It's a different thing. There's a general realisation that jazz has to be learned experientially (as Jack mentions) and that a teaching and performing career support each other, that performance is always a process, a work in progress. This is one of the things that attracts me to the music.

    Part of the reason for this of course, is that jazz performance is not really a profession. Tristano, for example, was quite opposed to the idea. No musician moves to NYC to make a comfortable living.

    OTOH if you are an opera singer, you want to be a finished, polished product able to do professional work. It's a linear thing.
    Of course you can teach jazz and be a performer at the same time. You can repair guitars and be a performer at the same time. You can be a doctor and be a performer at the same time etc.
    The question is if you do not like teaching or you are not good at it does it still make sense to consider studying jazz a good option since you can always have teaching as a backup plan if there aren't enough gigs?
    Just because performing and composing is one's calling, doesn't mean teach also is. In most cases it really isn't. But people think of it as the necessary evil of the life of a musician and still rely on teaching for most of their income.
    Is this really necessary? A friend of mine is a family doctor. His hourly wage is high enough that he can work 10-20 hours a week and make enough money to support a decent living. He is not a musician, but go goes to long biking trips. Another friend who is a radiologist also have a similar life style. Many programmers are also self employed, they get contracts and don't work 9-5. You can even work 9-5 and still be a performer. If you teach music in high school, university or privately all day, you're probably burned out of music by the time you find time to work on your development in the evenings. Someone I studied with years ago always complained about that. It might even be better be doing something else as you day job. I was able to practice more than he could. He couldn't pickup his guitar by the end of the day after teaching a long chain of students, he just needed a beer When I come home from work, I can't wait to pick up my guitar.
    If you are serious as a musician and reasonably good, over the years you can build your network in your city as well.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 05-10-2019 at 08:03 AM.

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Of course you can teach jazz and be a performer at the same time. You can repair guitars and be a performer at the same time. You can be a doctor and be a performer at the same time etc.
    The question is if you do not like teaching or you are not good at it does it still make sense to consider studying jazz a good option since you can always have teaching as a backup plan if there aren't enough gigs?
    Is this a hypothetical or something you are thinking about doing?

    I think you have a simplistic view of the biz.

    People who study jazz end up playing all sorts of gigs. One guy I know who did jazz guitar produces hip hop records. It's not jazz or teaching, there's a lot of stuff you can get involved with.

    People I play in jazz groups with have worked with Van Morrison, Jeff Beck, ELO, Bryan Ferry, Whitney Houston, Prince, Roger Waters (I did a gig with his son who's a jazz pianist currently based in LA), you name it. My bass player once did a function with Bill Bruford on drums FFS. It's quite normal on the scene, no big deal.

    I'm not meaning to show off, because every working musician in London can say the exact same thing. We are all the same when we play £50 jazz gig lol, just lovers of the music trying to do it as well as we can.

    And - if you want to go into a supporting role of some kind - video production, recording, marketing, PR, promotion, journalism, blogging, fixing, just off the top of my head - you are going to need those contacts.

    There are other musicians who are very good at booking gigs for a certain niche that pay well and can book whoever they want to play on them. Often they become agents.

    If you want to only perform jazz, you should get some funding, or rich parents, but that's always the case except for maybe Jarrett and a few others.

    The jazz dream I suppose is to make a name for yourself in NYC and then bank good money playing the European festival circuit (because apparently there ain't any playing jazz gigs in NYC lol). AFAIK that's basically it. And it's a HARD life - takes its toll. I don't envy the time away from family, exhausting flight schedule etc. Maybe later you can get a teaching position at a conservatory.

    Just because performing and composing is one's calling, doesn't mean teach also is. In most cases it really isn't. But people think of it as the necessary evil of the life of a musician and still rely on teaching for most of their income.
    Yeah I get you. I take my teaching very seriously, and pleased to say many musicians do, but there are those musicians who don't who shouldn't.

    Is this really necessary? A friend of mine is a family doctor. His hourly wage is high enough that he can work 10-20 hours a week and make enough money to support a decent living. He is not a musician, but go goes to long biking trips. Another friend who is a radiologist also have a similar life style. Many programmers are also self employed, they get contracts and don't work 9-5. You can even work 9-5 and still be a performer. If you teach music in high school, university or privately all day, you're probably burned out of music by the time you find time to work on your development in the evenings. Someone I studied with years ago always complained about that. It might even be better be doing something else as you day job. I was able to practice more than he could. He couldn't pickup his guitar by the end of the day.
    If you are serious as a musician and reasonably good, over the years you can build your network in the city as well.
    Look at Graham. I mean, what a great player! No it's not a talent or ability thing.

    There are lots of decisions that go into a decision whether to get involved in music professionally, but I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from giving it a go on one hand, or being an amateur on the other.

  38. #87

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    Distance Education and Youtube are not the same thing, folks.

  39. #88

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    Most all of the teachers that I've had on guitar, theory, piano, voice, etc. still gigged some, and certainly still performed, whether paid or not. I think if one leaves the profession it gets way too easy to falter on practicing. ("maybe tomorrow, maybe the day after that, maybe next week, maybe next month, maybe next year"...)

    And yes, Berklee is expensive but I looked at the online degree there and because I already had an undergrad degree, including some transferable music courses - and - a few Berklee Online courses under my belt, my degree path was on the order of $25K - $30K, with NO time limit on how long I had to complete it! Now that's a far cry from all this $400K for four years talk.

    In the end it wasn't the right path for me though, I have too little time to practice at the music major pace. There are some retired guys going for it though - interesting.

    So what do you do if you are starting out and don't already have a degree or a lot of money but want a Berklee guitar education? Go to a community college and earn as many transferable credits as possible, both general ed AND music credits. $100 - $150 per semester hour? Practically free. Then switch to Berklee Online.

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Most all of the teachers that I've had on guitar, theory, piano, voice, etc. still gigged some, and certainly still performed, whether paid or not. I think if one leaves the profession it gets way too easy to falter on practicing. ("maybe tomorrow, maybe the day after that, maybe next week, maybe next month, maybe next year"...)

    And yes, Berklee is expensive but I looked at the online degree there and because I already had an undergrad degree, including some transferable music courses - and - a few Berklee Online courses under my belt, my degree path was on the order of $25K - $30K, with NO time limit on how long I had to complete it! Now that's a far cry from all this $400K for four years talk.

    In the end it wasn't the right path for me though, I have too little time to practice at the music major pace. There are some retired guys going for it though - interesting.

    So what do you do if you are starting out and don't already have a degree or a lot of money but want a Berklee guitar education? Go to a community college and earn as many transferable credits as possible, both general ed AND music credits. $100 - $150 per semester hour? Practically free. Then switch to Berklee Online.
    It's pretty much a waste of time and money unless you are playing with others. Or do they address that and find you ways to buddy up with others in your area, and have contact with experienced Berklee alum?

    The thing that would inspire me to .. err... find funding to go Berklee would be the personal contact with some of the best musicians, teachers and highest level students in the world. Education's a lot cheaper in the UK - and even cheaper in Europe - so it makes it a little less attractive than it might be in the US.

  41. #90

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    In my opinion:
    We learn jazz all life from different things...music schooll is just a small episode.
    Jazz is something you learn "on the street" too.

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It's pretty much a waste of time and money unless you are playing with others. Or do they address that and find you ways to buddy up with others in your area, and have contact with experienced Berklee alum?

    The thing that would inspire me to .. err... find funding to go Berklee would be the personal contact with some of the best musicians, teachers and highest level students in the world. Education's a lot cheaper in the UK - and even cheaper in Europe - so it makes it a little less attractive than it might be in the US.
    I agree to a significant extent, but not entirely. The ensemble gap with distance education is a big gap - but - that wouldn't be an issue for a classical guitarist. Or for that matter, a lot of miles that Joe Pass traveled. But I won't over-make that point.

    Alternatives for ensemble - You can always go to a community college or other university to get some ensemble work in. Preferably more "combo" than big band, to boot. I played for several years in a college big band and did the chunk chunk chunk thing on rhythm guitar. I can't say that it made a big difference in my guitar life. (Honestly, BFD). But that doesn't mean that it couldn't if I kept pushing to get in other ensemble types.

    Now in 2019, my area community college begs players to join up and makes the point that they don't have to be full time music majors there. They want players, and one can play for years!

    On your last point, at Berklee Online you can make friends easily if that's what you want to do, although people are separated by distance. Most of the instructors are terrific. I have to pinch myself occasionally when I think about studying with a couple of those guys and being on a first name basis with them, etc. I can't get THAT at my community college, although the teachers there are very good too.

  43. #92

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    I took music courses from the jazz program at the university that I studied many moons ago (I wasn't even that interested in playing jazz back then). I wasn't a music major though so I never was in any of the ensembles.
    However, I've been in (and still am) both small combo and big band ensembles in my city. Big band's were community bands. Small combo's were (and are) workshops privately run by pro's and university profs. All these also involve public performances. Also I'm not playing with novices. A lot of the musicians in these bands are gigging musicians in separate bands, some hold jazz or classical music degrees.
    I'm sure you can easily be put in an ensemble in a jazz program with more novice players than I've been lucky to play with. Apparently you can even get a university degree in music without ever playing in a small combo if I understood the post above by jazzstndt correctly. That makes me feel real good
    I've also been (and still am) studying one-on-one with pro's who teach at universities. So the choice isn't either college or the street. There are other options. Youtube is supplementary at best. I don't like watching videos during my valuable practice time. There are some good content of course (counting Christian's videos in this category) But that's for times when I can't practice with my instrument.

  44. #93

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    It might be worth mentioning that not every music degree is performance oriented.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    I agree to a significant extent, but not entirely. The ensemble gap with distance education is a big gap - but - that wouldn't be an issue for a classical guitarist. Or for that matter, a lot of miles that Joe Pass traveled. But I won't over-make that point.

    Alternatives for ensemble - You can always go to a community college or other university to get some ensemble work in. Preferably more "combo" than big band, to boot. I played for several years in a college big band and did the chunk chunk chunk thing on rhythm guitar. I can't say that it made a big difference in my guitar life. (Honestly, BFD). But that doesn't mean that it couldn't if I kept pushing to get in other ensemble types.

    Now in 2019, my area community college begs players to join up and makes the point that they don't have to be full time music majors there. They want players, and one can play for years!

    On your last point, at Berklee Online you can make friends easily if that's what you want to do, although people are separated by distance. Most of the instructors are terrific. I have to pinch myself occasionally when I think about studying with a couple of those guys and being on a first name basis with them, etc. I can't get THAT at my community college, although the teachers there are very good too.
    The big problem with all of that of course, is Mr Einstein. Maybe in 300 years jam sessions will be conducted by ansible between the far flung colonies of the Solar Hegemony. Until then I can't even jam with someone in London on Skype without an unacceptable time delay.

    Anyway I think my buddying up idea is a good one. All it needs is a database (they should presumably have the info already) and a bit of organisation.

    Oh, hang on. This is a music college. Forget it.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-10-2019 at 05:51 PM.

  46. #95

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    This thread is kinda bunk. There's more choices than School or YT. They're both tools.

    For me it was more affordable to study privately with the Jazz instructor from the University here in town. Great guy, and he's turned into a mentor. Very, very liberal with his time.
    Last edited by DS71; 05-10-2019 at 11:40 PM.

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    The big problem with all of that of course, is Mr Einstein. Maybe in 300 years jam sessions will be conducted by ansible between the far flung colonies of the Solar Hegemony. Until then I can't even jam with someone in London on Skype without an unacceptable time delay.

    Anyway I think my buddying up idea is a good one. All it needs is a database (they should presumably have the info already) and a bit of organisation.

    Oh, hang on. This is a music college. Forget it.
    What about a database? What are you envisioning?

  48. #97

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    There are a bunch of collaboration sites online. If you are in a bigger community Meetup.com will most likely have jam pages and jazz jam pages where you can meet like minded folks in person.

    If you live in communities that don't have what you want, you can participate in sites like Drooble.com , though not jam sites they are about collaborating as a recording musician and/or a songwriter/composer.

    With very little effort you can find an outlet.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by DS71 View Post
    This thread is kinda bunk. There's more choices than School or YT. They're both tools.

    For me it was more affordable to study privately with the Jazz instructor from the University here in town. Great guy, and he's turned into a mentor. Very, very liberal with his time.
    Read all posts.

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    What about a database? What are you envisioning?
    I feel stupid saying this as it's surely something they do already?

    Well Berklee presumably holds contact information and assessment data on a large number of distance learners as well as a nationwide indeed international network of alumni. Surely it's possible to coordinate online fora with people in reasonably close proximity with meet ups and playing sessions for those wishing to participate.

    Pay a local Berklee alum (who is trained remotely in assessment, syllabus and so on) an hourly rate for leading these sessions.

    I mean don't they do this already???? And if not why not?

    The granddaddy of distance learning courses in this albeit rather small country is the Open University which goes WAAAAAAY back before the internet. People could watch lectures on TV, submit work via correspondence and meet up with tutors and other students in their local area.

  51. #100

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    youtube is a great place to learn, but I think it's best for intermediate and up.

    there's no way to get real feedback from youtube, so especially if you're a beginner you might learn something wrong and have no one to correct you. you also will have no way of knowing a good video from bad, at least not without a lot of frustration.

    in the end it's always about how much the student puts into it.