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  1. #1
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    Berklee's Institute Of Jazz And Gender Justice Aims To Combat Sexism In Jazz


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  3. #2
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    Gender justice means never having to put a toilet seat down again, except for myself.

  4. #3
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    As a rule, I put the seat and lid down so it’s equally inconvenient to all sexes.

  5. #4
    What the world needs is more unemployed jazz musicians of all types.
    "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing." - Socrates
    “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.” - Alan Wilson Watts

  6. #5
    This is a gesture of desperate spin after a long history of faculty exploitation culminating in Berklee instructors drugging and raping students and then paying the girls to maintain silence so the school remained untarnished in its reputation. But hey, some would argue that those girls got more out of their education than they ever bargained for.
    Yeah.

    11 Berklee Professors Committed Sexual Assault — And Were Quietly Dismissed

    Perspective.

    Berklee's Institute Of Jazz And Gender Justice Aims To Combat Sexism In Jazz-screen-shot-2019-04-10-8-22-02-pm-jpg
    Last edited by TruthHertz; 04-10-2019 at 08:24 PM.

  7. #6
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    The turn toward justice always starts small and late.

    But you know the saying: "The best time to plant a tree is fifty years ago. The second best time is right now."
    "Don't worry about that. Everybody talks about finding your voice. Do your homework and your voice will find you." - Branford Marsalis

  8. #7
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    Imo, Berkley is on ethically shakey ground in more ways than one. In addition to the gender bias, all those students graduating with 400k in debt and no job prospects. One could say the whole thing is a scam.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomems View Post
    This is TOTALLY about recruiting lots more women into their program by letting them know they too, are more than talented and worthy to spend a fortune on jazz academia. $$$$$$$$$$

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    This is TOTALLY about recruiting lots more women into their program by letting them know they too, are more than talented and worthy to spend a fortune on jazz academia. $$$$$$$$$$
    That may well be what is driving some of the institutional support for this program but
    the women artists are serious about making some real progress on these issues.
    The cost of education too is a real issue as well but music is not the only college major that
    offers insufficient certainty of future employment.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    Imo, Berkley is on ethically shakey ground in more ways than one. In addition to the gender bias, all those students graduating with 400k in debt and no job prospects. One could say the whole thing is a scam.
    An understandable position, and yes Berklee is expensive, but I have a different point of view.

    Firstly, scam is a pretty strong word, and implies fraud.

    A few questions to consider:
    1. What job prospects and debt loads are associated with liberal arts and fine arts degrees at most private northeast or Ivy League schools? (Drama, Art, Philosophy, History, etc.)
    2. What prospects do most jazz performance majors have - from any school?
    3. Are all such schools engaged in fraud?
    4. What is the cost of a jazz performance degree at USC?
    5. Same question - UCLA, but for out of state students?
    6. Same question - Manhattan School of Music, University of Miami, UNT - out of state?
    7. Have you ever tried to talk a motivated jazz performance major into studying something else, and if so, how did it end?
    8. If they know the risks and choose it anyway, are they a victim?
    9. Did you know that you can earn a Bachelors Degree in Guitar from Berklee Online for about $30K?
    10. Are loans the only way to get through school? (I attended private schools too, paid my own way starting at 18 years old, and yes it took me longer).

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    The cost of education too is a real issue as well but music is not the only college major that
    offers insufficient certainty of future employment.
    True, except the discussion is about a music college....

  13. #12
    OK so I read it. I think there is some value with this program.

    This is a quote from the article:
    "Carrington says she doesn't expect jazz to reach gender equity in her lifetime".

    I agree, that's a fair bet. One big reason is that most women don't give two hoots about jazz, and never have. If "jazz is dead" for male listeners, what chance does it have with most women? Less than zero?

    OTOH - I really like Hiromi and find her to be a compelling performer. I saw Mimi Fox not too long ago. She's really good, and a noticeably stronger player than she was a decade ago. I wasn't necessarily expecting that since she is already a mature established player, but there it was. Such players (and more of them) will be important for the prospects of Carrington's vision, or so it seems to me.



  14. #13
    There's a little irony here, that there even needed to be a separate entity created to recognize the efforts of women. Yes the jazz world does make it hard for women to be recognized but if you look closely, you'll find that no small part of that comes from subtle and tacit example from instructors AT BERKLEE who create that kind of world, that kind of school.
    Don't make the mistake of thinking this noble "Institute of Gender Justice" doesn't come as a direct reaction to some need for women to push against trends, and policies that the school itself condoned.
    When I was in New York, there's a trumpet player Ingrid Jensen. Absolutely amazing. And nobody ever considers her "that female trumpet player". They don't because she herself refuses to play that game. She holds herself to a standard everyone of her top level peers does: the excellence that comes from ceaseless and creative practice. She is also one of the most imaginative teachers ever. Ask her what she thinks of female band events sometimes.
    All I'm saying is that on the surface this Institute of Gender Justice seems cool, but there are some messages that empower the individual to become extraordinary and there are some that say we're mainly reacting to a stacked system. Why doesn't Berklee put their money where their mouth is, create full scholarships so these talented musicians can get on the road quicker and empower their own musical lives without entering into the slavery of future debt? Wouldn't THAT be an amazing message?

    Too much stench of marketing ploy.
    David

  15. #14
    True, except the discussion is about a music college....
    cosmic,

    Fair enough.

    I agree, that's a fair bet. One big reason is that most women don't give two hoots about jazz, and never have. If "jazz is dead" for male listeners, what chance does it have with most women? Less than zero?
    jazzstdnt,

    Gender equity is not only limited to jazz. It is a challenge being addressed across the full range of experience
    of life in the USA and elsewhere. For this reason, progress will be made in our lifetime across the various disciplines
    including jazz.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    cosmic,

    Fair enough.



    jazzstdnt,

    Gender equity is not only limited to jazz. It is a challenge being addressed across the full range of experience
    of life in the USA and elsewhere. For this reason, progress will be made in our lifetime across the various disciplines
    including jazz.
    Yes I realize that, but still don't quite agree. It's one thing when women and girls are busting down the door, or want to bust down the door to get to something - and are being denied. It's quite another when they're overwhelmingly indifferent.

  17. Pretty much everybody that i know that makes a living playing or teaching music has some kind of music college degree, usually the best the can afford. Today, between actual education, networking and developing the diversity needed to support yourself as a musician, i don't think anything compares with actually studying music in a good college.

    Regarding most of the sex and misconduct accusations, i 'm waiting for the next trend where people start suing themselves, don't think it will take long now.
    Last edited by Alter; 04-11-2019 at 10:54 AM.

  18. #17
    Next up - women in bass fishing competitions. Oh the inhumanity!

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    There's a little irony here, that there even needed to be a separate entity created to recognize the efforts of women. Yes the jazz world does make it hard for women to be recognized but if you look closely, you'll find that no small part of that comes from subtle and tacit example from instructors AT BERKLEE who create that kind of world, that kind of school.
    Don't make the mistake of thinking this noble "Institute of Gender Justice" doesn't come as a direct reaction to some need for women to push against trends, and policies that the school itself condoned.
    When I was in New York, there's a trumpet player Ingrid Jensen. Absolutely amazing. And nobody ever considers her "that female trumpet player". They don't because she herself refuses to play that game. She holds herself to a standard everyone of her top level peers does: the excellence that comes from ceaseless and creative practice. She is also one of the most imaginative teachers ever. Ask her what she thinks of female band events sometimes.
    All I'm saying is that on the surface this Institute of Gender Justice seems cool, but there are some messages that empower the individual to become extraordinary and there are some that say we're mainly reacting to a stacked system. Why doesn't Berklee put their money where their mouth is, create full scholarships so these talented musicians can get on the road quicker and empower their own musical lives without entering into the slavery of future debt? Wouldn't THAT be an amazing message?

    Too much stench of marketing ploy.
    David
    Interesting points. I have a few thoughts about your points and questions posed.


    1. Berklee did not invent the jazz world, far from it.
    2. No doubt Berklee has/does reflect the jazz world, but if they're taking the initiative to change it, why not given them a little credit?
    3. You seem to be implying that you have all the facts about Berklee's scholarships at your fingertips, and that women don't have any. Is either of those things true?
    4. Hand ups are preferred to handouts. Scholarships based on merit - not diversity quotas, have a much higher probability of success in the end. The alternative is to pay a price for guilt tripping - with no results. In other words - Feelings are nice, but it is results that count.
    5. There's nothing wrong with marketing a long as the product or service is good. Marketing is essential in most cases.
    6. Scholarships can be endowed by corporations, the government, and wealthy individuals. So can we count on Cher, Beyonce, Bette Middler, Streisand, Katy Perry, etc., to kick in? I wonder what they would require in terms of awards granted? Perhaps that any "deserving" students in question be worthy - based on merit? Why aren't they out in front with their cash? They have oodles to spare.

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