Sustainably and ethically produced guitars

[christianm77]

Again my friend, check the OP, this thread is about guitar in the context of; tree hugging, worker safety and wages, global warming, and animal hide glue. Did I miss one?

Sure, worker safety is on the same level as hippie self knitted cheese drum circles.

Hey I just love that asbestos!

Other than that - heck no, all humans born equal? How silly. You are making a religious reference anyway - men are born equal in the eyes of God. Of course my secular humanist friends tell me that there no such thing, so the only equality that they intend to implement is through Marxism. Talk about low wages, winners/losers and cracking the whip, sheesh.

I don't think we really need to sweat the metaphysics, I think having an imagination and being able to place yourself into the shoes your fellow humans is sufficient ground for ethical disquiet.

Otherwise, if one is relatively comfortable compared to the global mean, you are betraying a somewhat immodest appraisal of your own capabilities and faculties.

Lastly, no Euro, especially a French or English person dare lecture anyone else about hegemony, usurpation, and domination.

True indeed, and well said. It's important to highlight the voices that represent those who do not descend from white male hegemonic privilege.

Jazzstdnt is officially woke.

[Jazzstdnt]

It also seems laughably ignorant to blame the USA for India's challenges. If it weren't for the USA, the internet it invented, and it's demand for labor - despite all the drawbacks associated with that labor - Indians would likely be starving.

An Indian taxi driver lectured my wife and me on the way to Topo La Bampo about how Churchill was guilty of genocide due to his governance of famine, and how India was once the planet's wealthiest country, etc. Did Americans harm India, or help it?

[Jazzstdnt]

Since India has so many who are unlucky, and the amended Lacey act, should Gibson pack up and move from Nashville to Bangalore?

Think how that would put more Americans on food stamps and Indians to work! America's noblest ambition and highest calling.

I don't know why I didn't think of that earlier, ha ha. What was I thinkin'?

[christianm77]

It also seems laughably ignorant to blame the USA for India's challenges. If it weren't for the USA, the internet it invented, and it's demand for labor - despite all the drawbacks associated with that labor - Indians would likely be starving.

An Indian taxi driver lectured my wife and me on the way to Topo La Bampo about how Churchill was guilty of genocide due to his governance of famine, and how India was once the planet's wealthiest country, etc. Did Americans harm India, or help it?

Sure.

His thugs set fire to my nan's (grandma's) home city
Black and Tans - Wikipedia
Burning of Cork - Wikipedia

This showed me in a personal way that Churchill was not the purely heroic war leader in history books, but a ruthless imperialist.

My nan used to tell me stories about those times; she was only a child.

[christianm77]

In world full of non-binary distinctions, I think there's room for offering a critique of one's country's actions while also supporting it in other things.

I might be part Irish, but I am also part English. I can deal with it! Amazing. How do I do it?

I also have no problem for someone calling my country out for, for instance, happily selling weapons of mass destruction to Saudi Arabia.

(Although I might, too, suggest they look at their own country's actions.... That's human. But a truth is a truth.)

I'm not personally making or selling them cluster bombs, radar or Eurofighters.

(Although someone with my edu background might have gone into that line of work. Marconi, BAE etc were all at the STEM graduate jobs fairs. It's one of the things the UK still does at a world class level. Unfortunately.)

[mr quick]

There are systemic ethical problems with globalised supply chains wherever guitars are put together.

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism!

[Jazzstdnt]

A brief review of history confirms that neither France nor Great Britain have ANYTHING to talk about vis-a-vis the people's plight in West Africa and/or India.

The gall to give Americans shit about it.

[Jazzstdnt]

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism!

Oh OK.

So please share your thoughts about communist life in Russia when people resorted to cannibalism of children.

Or modern day Chinese - eating, dogs, cats, and bugs. Lots and lots of bugs.


Is that the kind of consumption that we need to aspire to?

[christianm77]

It also seems laughably ignorant to blame the USA for India's challenges. If it weren't for the USA, the internet it invented, and it's demand for labor - despite all the drawbacks associated with that labor - Indians would likely be starving.

An Indian taxi driver lectured my wife and me on the way to Topo La Bampo about how Churchill was guilty of genocide due to his governance of famine, and how India was once the planet's wealthiest country, etc. Did Americans harm India, or help it?

BTW I haven't read enough histories of India to know the whole story and the directness of his culpability to comment. It clearly happened on his watch. I believe it.

And - although I suspect you made this point more as an attempt to shut down criticism of the US - you are ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT for pointing out that Brits can dish it out with regards to America's misdeeds but cannot take it AT ALL.

We have a very skewed and nationalistic narrative of our own history which until recently has gone largely unchallenged in our media and schools.

And we (white middle class Brits) HATE having it pointed out. We pretend to be not patriotic, a bit embarrassed by the flag and the queen etc, but these narratives are built in so deep you will find them in the most politically liberal of UK media. Look at the 2012 olympics launch ceremony for example - no mention that Britain once ruled half the world.

I find it REALLY interesting, and these days it's actually all coming out into the open. Those old simple stories of course helped keep the country together, a myth of national identity. These bitter, divisive and interminable politics of Brexit are an obvious manifestation.

However, that's no excuse! :-)

But it is not general these things are not topic of polite conversation, which is fair enough.

[fep]

7.7 billion, is the earth even sustainable with that much over population?

[Jazzstdnt]

BTW I haven't read enough histories of India to know the whole story and the directness of his culpability to comment. It clearly happened on his watch. I believe it.

And - although I suspect you made this point more as an attempt to shut down criticism of the US - you are ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT for pointing out that Brits can dish it out with regards to America's misdeeds but cannot take it AT ALL.

We have a very skewed and nationalistic narrative of our own history which until recently has gone largely unchallenged in our media and schools.

And we (white middle class Brits) HATE having it pointed out. We pretend to be not patriotic, a bit embarrassed by the flag and the queen etc, but these narratives are built in so deep you will find them in the most politically liberal of UK media. Look at the 2012 olympics launch ceremony for example - no mention that Britain once ruled half the world.

I find it REALLY interesting, and these days it's actually all coming out into the open. Those old simple stories of course helped keep the country together, a myth of national identity. These bitter, divisive and interminable politics of Brexit are an obvious manifestation.

However, that's no excuse! :-)

But it is not general these things are not topic of polite conversation, which is fair enough.

Big of you to say.

Everybody likes to hit the USA (which is very far from perfect, like everyone else). It's just too tempting to hit the big dog, especially if one owes them one. Because that means they are grateful and resentful at the same time.

[Jazzstdnt]

7.7 billion, is the earth even sustainable with that much over population?

The earth is sustainable, but man may not be.

BTW - what is the line for "over" population?

[christianm77]

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism!

I would remain one of those annoying social democrats who wonders why everywhere can't be Sweden and believes that raw, unstable and Shiva-like power of capitalism can be harnessed for tree hugging anti asbestos loveliness through the action of properly accountable government. I'd probably say I was a Keynsian if I had actually read his ideas properly. (Don't ask me about inflation mate.)

So on that basis, both you and Jazzstdnt should despise me equally ;-)

At some point I'll get round to getting into economics a little deeper.

I haven't read Marx, so I can't really offer much of an intelligent response to Marxist points. My dad used to be a Marxist so I have a vague idea of his general thinking, and some popularised presentations of his most well known concepts. They are simple and elegant ideas.

The ideas of Chicago school free market capitalism are also elegant and simple.

Modern capitalism is almost absurdly intertwined and complicated and chaotic. Not my idea of a fun time to study it, but I can see the appeal for some.

My academic background is in astrophysics. It's all spheres and disks, mate. Dunno what that tagliatelle mess is. What are the bits in there? Urgggghhhh they're people. Nasty squishy things.

This tends to make me highly skeptical of any claims to objective truth this or that economic theory might put forward. The books I have read are full of statements like 'we did thing X and the GDP of the country increased by Y %over 5 years' and I'm like, fuck off mate, are you having a laugh? What, somebody won a Nobel Prize for that?

I think actually proving causality is hard in this field. Again, not my idea of fun.

[Drumbler]

I read Das Kapital and concluded Karl Marx was a very disturbed, frustrated and failed individual.

[Jazzstdnt]

I read Das Kapital and concluded Karl Marx was a very disturbed, frustrated and failed individual.

Yeah, one could develop that notion after one look at his face...

But seriously, some of his more objective critics have opined that in a dark and dreary 19th century Germany he could not envision the industrial revolution and capitalism that exploded in the US and Europe and increased the wealth of millions. So how could he deal with poverty and a seemingly endless cycle of inequality......? Back then Europe was about "who's your daddy?" when it came to personal wealth. Might still be, as compared to the USA.

Thank God for The New World. Even today so many (most?) countries and cultures are stuck in the past - and it's hurting them.

But Russia? Viet Nam? They woke up about Communism/Marxism. Even Cuba and China are loosening the grip on economics a little bit (although not centralized power and control). Whoever heard of a non-government Chinese billionaire 30 years ago?

Yet despite all of that and the benefits of capitalism, many in the west are caught up in the "grass is greener" mindset with socialism, and just want to try it out, and probably can't be talked out of it.


Oh well. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[christianm77]

Yeah, one could develop that notion after one look at his face...

But seriously, some of his more objective critics have opined that in a dark and dreary 19th century Germany he could not envision the industrial revolution and capitalism that exploded in the US and Europe and increased the wealth of millions. So how could he deal with poverty and a seemingly endless cycle of inequality......? Back then Europe was about "who's your daddy?" when it came to personal wealth. Might still be, as compared to the USA.

Thank God for The New World. Even today so many (most?) countries and cultures are stuck in the past - and it's hurting them.

But Russia? Viet Nam? They woke up about Communism/Marxism. Even Cuba and China are loosening the grip on economics a little bit (although not centralized power and control). Whoever heard of a non-government Chinese billionaire 30 years ago?

Yet despite all of that and the benefits of capitalism, many in the west are caught up in the "grass is greener" mindset with socialism, and just want to try it out, and probably can't be talked out of it.


Oh well. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Marx’s more objective critics? Presumably the ones who actually read him?

Socialism has become a convenient buzzword for people of all political persuasions. I’m not sure what it means when it’s being used. I’m certain that is part of the intent in general.

But that doesn’t surprise me any more. Free market rhetoric is often used as a way of excusing crony capitalism of course. I don’t know much about economics but that was one of the first things I learned - rhetoric and reality are often at odds.

How capitalism deals (or doesn’t) with the clumping together of wealth, establishment of monopolies and aggressive suppression of competition we see today from Amazon etc (I don't blame them, they are acting rationally) is an area that interests me. The idea that the market will self-regulate seems hopeful to me, my physics instincts say unstable equilibrium at best.

And the baroque complications of late capitalism are endless. It’s hard to see how they relate to labour, goods and resources in the real world.

[christianm77]

Of course, that unstable equilibrium thing has been the subject of debate within economics.

Economists Prove That Capitalism Is Unnecessary

I think the idea of 'perfect information' is a little bit of a stretch. I mean, I know a simplification required to make a mathematical problem tractable when I see one, that's basically all we did at uni, no one likes second order partial differential equations at the best of times.

However, while a Wall Street trader might be plugged into every channel of information they can find because it's their job, but I can barely remember my own name from one day to the next let alone make economically rational decisions about toilet paper. In fact I usually grab the first thing I see and get out of the supermarket as fast as I possibly can.

Sometimes it's even toilet paper.

And even the vast majority of actors with good information were unable to anticipate or correctly respond to the 2008 crash.

So, I think neoclassical economics is a little naive and over optimistic in its understand of human capability, even those of highly paid experienced professionals, let alone this jazz idiot.

The other conclusion we can probably reach is that neoclassical economists are presumably a pain in the bottom to go grocery shopping with. I mean, why bother buying toilet paper when we could use their books?

[dot75]

The gall to give Americans shit about it.

? did I miss something else ?

[christianm77]

Euro awareness .. The world needs that ... but yeah, we are actually a fundamentally different breed in many ways



Economic theory isn't as has never been about money, but always utility (or happiness if you will). We consume goods and do stuff that gives us utility.

The reason we engage in business endeavours is to get resources that allow us more utility. Some are lucky that what they do for a living in it self makes them happy, while others grovel in a random job and need to look elsewhere for happiness.

Cheers

I think it’s an interesting area of study. Clever clever snark aside I would like to learn more about it at some point.

[Jazzstdnt]

? did I miss something else ?

well, yes.

[Jazzstdnt]

The term "Socialism" doesn't have a single definition from its critics because it doesn't have a single implementation model from its practitioners - and never has.

But the general idea is:

1. Government power and control over the individual, and
2. Forced wealth transfer to the proletariat and poor

[fep]

The earth is sustainable, but man may not be.

BTW - what is the line for "over" population?

Depending on whether you believe this that or the other article... I've seen as low as 2 billion if man where to consume resources at the European level (which is about 60% or the U.S. level) and I've seen for food as high as 10 billion given many continue to eat meat (presumable higher if we all were vegetarian).

I was born in 1957 when the population was 2.8 billion, current population is 7.7 billion, currently growing at about 1% per year.

[christianm77]

The term "Socialism" doesn't have a single definition from its critics because it doesn't have a single implementation model from its practitioners - and never has.

But the general idea is:

1. Government power and control over the individual, and
2. Forced wealth transfer to the proletariat and poor

So you don’t use the definition that ‘the workers own the means of production’?

[dot75]

well, yes.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I mean I don't see anyone having a dig at the USA ?

[Cunamara]

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism!

That is certainly not true.