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Thread: Jazz Shredders?

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by dasein View Post
    And since spreading the gospel of Arthur Rhames is part of my schtick, here's a recording that should do the trick (wait for it):

    Rhames tone is killing me in this... but I can't tell if it's the recording distortion, the room sound, or partly his actual amp tone. It almost sounds like there is an effect going on, maybe an envelope filter of some kind. Anyone have any idea of what he's using, or what is creating that tone? Obviously the playing has something to do with it!

  2. #52
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    Why don't I hear Louis Stewart's name more often. He is fast, lyrical, and has great tone. I looked around on Youtube and there is some nice videos on him.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    Why don't I hear Louis Stewart's name more often. He is fast, lyrical, and has great tone. I looked around on Youtube and there is some nice videos on him.
    Louis was world-class. But he stayed in Ireland because of his family, that is probably why he is less well-known. He died in 2016. Here’s another great track:


  4. #54
    Wow, that Matteo Mancuso kid is magnificent!

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Rhames tone is killing me in this... but I can't tell if it's the recording distortion, the room sound, or partly his actual amp tone. It almost sounds like there is an effect going on, maybe an envelope filter of some kind. Anyone have any idea of what he's using, or what is creating that tone? Obviously the playing has something to do with it!
    That is some good stuff.

    I vaguely remember hearing about him in the 80's but never got a record or saw him live. I was not aware of his death from AIDS. I wrote an article about musicians who died of infectious illnesses--mainly HIV and hepatitis C--but I was not aware of any jazzers who died from AIDS.
    “Without music, life would be a mistake”--Friedrich Nietzsche

    Current lineup: Gibson ES-135 ('02), Peerless Sunset, Harmony Brilliant Cutaway ('64), Godin 5th Avenue, Alvarez AC60 A/E classical, Kay K37 ('56), Fender Squier VM Jazz bass, several ukes. Amps: Fishman Artist, Fender SCXD, Pignose 7-100.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Louis was world-class. But he stayed in Ireland because of his family, that is probably why he is less well-known. He died in 2016. Here’s another great track:


    I would kill to hear him play that with a quartet. I have really come to appreciate how all the great solos that I revere had killer rhythm sections.

    I went on Amazon (USA), by the way, and there are some songs from him and some of the folks he played with. I am going back there, now.

  7. #57
    Being able to negotiate fast changes is nothing special for most name players. In fact, all my contemporary European heroes can do that. MVI, JVR, Bireli Lagrene, Ulf Wakenius, Andreas Oberg ... So no big deal really. It comes with the territory

    On the pyrotechnical level, probably nobody matches Bireli though.

    DB

  8. #58
    Who's MVI and JVR ?

    Wickipedia says there are no *known Jazz Guitar Heros with those initials.

    *not really....but who are they ?

  9. #59
    Martijn Van Iterson, Jesse Van Ruller.

  10. #60

  11. #61
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    Flying Dutchmen.

    Speaking of which the Dutch school of Gypsy Jazz is almost offensively shreddy :-)

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Flying Dutchmen.

    Speaking of which the Dutch school of Gypsy Jazz is almost offensively shreddy :-)
    Yeah. Jimmy and Stochelo Rosenberg. There are a few more by the way. Quite a few.

    By the way, not sure if this clip has ever been posted here but in 2005 Wim den Herder recorded an insanely fast Oscar Peterson solo in real time over the original recording. It took him 3 days to get under his fingers. Later, he even did this live on stage.



    And he recorded several other Oscar solos later:



    DB

  13. #63
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    That sounds like me when I record my solos at normal tempo and speed it up 150bpm on Garageband.

    Do we have a winner?

    That's a hell of an achievement. In three days too.

    So what are they putting in the water supply in the Nederlands?

    When this thread first came up, I remember thinking of Oscar and also thinking no guitarist has really mastered the type of fast fluid phrasing that was Oscar's stock in trade... Even listening to Joe Pass with Oscar I'm aware that Joe's great mastery of the instrument is uncontested, but that rhythmic fluency has never been adequately captured by a guitar player. I thought Forman came close though.

    Anyway, definitely sounds like shred on the guitar. He should do a two pianos gig with Pasquale. Pasquale can be Tatum and he can be Oscar.

  14. #64
    I just got Jesse Van Ruller’s ‘Live at Murphy’s Law’, highly recommended.


  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Martijn Van Iterson, Jesse Van Ruller.
    Love Jesse Von Ruller - Time is really good , chops are really good ...I think he missed a note once and they closed all the stores there for an hour back in 2007 lol.

    Seriously ...I can see playing Solos as well as these guys in some respects and even being more adventurous but not every solo and not missing a note for a whole set or night ....?

    He seems like one of those guys.

    He plays quite tight to the beat too ...cool .


    Not a shredder, doubt if he cares.





    Don't know the other one..
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-17-2019 at 05:34 PM.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog View Post
    Yeah. Jimmy and Stochelo Rosenberg. There are a few more by the way. Quite a few.

    By the way, not sure if this clip has ever been posted here but in 2005 Wim den Herder recorded an insanely fast Oscar Peterson solo in real time over the original recording. It took him 3 days to get under his fingers. Later, he even did this live on stage.



    And he recorded several other Oscar solos later:



    DB
    What the heck did I just witness!! My jaw is still on the floor . . . is this guy human?
    WOW

  17. #67
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    Tal Farlow - Anything Goes


  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post

    Is he playing with a pick? I thought JP never used a pick...

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine View Post
    Is he playing with a pick? I thought JP never used a pick...
    He sometimes used a pick when playing in a group, or when playing solo things at fast tempos.

  20. #70
    Wowwwwww I LOVE this thread! Thanks, all, for posting the cool vids!

    SJ

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog View Post
    Yeah. Jimmy and Stochelo Rosenberg. There are a few more by the way. Quite a few.

    By the way, not sure if this clip has ever been posted here but in 2005 Wim den Herder recorded an insanely fast Oscar Peterson solo in real time over the original recording. It took him 3 days to get under his fingers. Later, he even did this live on stage.



    And he recorded several other Oscar solos later:




    DB
    That is remarkably fleet fingered and really pushing the envelope for what is humanly capable on the guitar considering it's not just basic scale or arp shredding, there are a few tricky right hand moves going on. However, I gotta say that really fast clean guitar picking seldom sounds as exciting as, say, piano. It's just so difficult to have that authoritative tone where every note sounds under control. If you transcribe piano or sax players on guitar, it never sounds as good as the original instrument. That is why the most compelling "shred" guitarists develop their own idiosyncratic approach to lines that are very "guitaristic" - i.e., you won't hear piano players sounding better than GB or Wes (who has his moments), or Django at what they do...

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    That is remarkably fleet fingered and really pushing the envelope for what is humanly capable on the guitar considering it's not just basic scale or arp shredding, there are a few tricky right hand moves going on. However, I gotta say that really fast clean guitar picking seldom sounds as exciting as, say, piano. It's just so difficult to have that authoritative tone where every note sounds under control. If you transcribe piano or sax players on guitar, it never sounds as good as the original instrument. That is why the most compelling "shred" guitarists develop their own idiosyncratic approach to lines that are very "guitaristic" - i.e., you won't hear piano players sounding better than GB or Wes (who has his moments), or Django at what they do...
    I would agree with every word.

    Ultimately I think guitar has got to be guitar. But that’s not way we can’t take stuff that happens to work. Travis picking was inspired by stride for instance.... couldn’t think of a more guitaristic thing though!

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Martijn Van Iterson, Jesse Van Ruller.
    OMG *love* MVIs playing, although I don't think of him as a shredder. (He may very well be, guess I should go back and listen for that.) I just love his musical, melodic ideas, his phrasing, and his tone.

    The Whole Bunch is one of my favorite recordings by any jazz guitarist, ever...

    Another tune from TWB on youtube:


    - MVI & Peter Bernstein

    Great quote (and another vid) from MVI's blog "I dream of the ultimate guitar solo because as far as I’m concerned it hasn’t happened yet."

    Sure wish he would tour the US sometime! A bit concerning is the fact that his site's Gigs page says "No shows booked at the moment." Hope it is just a vacation...

    SJ

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog View Post

    By the way, not sure if this clip has ever been posted here but in 2005 Wim den Herder recorded an insanely fast Oscar Peterson solo in real time over the original recording. It took him 3 days to get under his fingers. Later, he even did this live on stage.



    DB
    Three days? I'm sure I couldn't do that in three YEARS. That's just scary fast. And very clean. Time to hit the woodshed!!!

    SJ

  25. #75
    Just HAD to look around for some more Wim den Herder :-) and found this really enjoyable rendition of Spain with he and Joschco Stephan:


  26. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    There's 'Just Friends' with Oscar Peterson on YouTube.
    And indeed Joe plays with a pick here :-)


  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine View Post
    And indeed Joe plays with a pick here :-)

    Yeah that's the video I had in mind when I referenced them earlier.

    Listen to how foursquare and on the beat Joe's phrasing is here compared to the variety in Oscar's phrasing.

    Joe is obviously mega, and one the greatest bop players and but rather I kind of running up against a limit of instrument and pick technique...

    Russell Malone's Jingles solo has the same quality, despite his different right hand technique. I think it's a product of both 'chunking' units of four note and amalgamated time, putting a fast 4/4 into 2/4 or even 1/4 and synchronising picking with a downstroke on the beat. Most of do this (even gypsy pickers like Joe.) It's a technical consideration that forces the music into a certain rhythmic, pre-bop, box.

    I do it myself.

    In other words, getting our two hands to work together creates a certain time feel at fast tempos.

    Pianists don't have to worry about the stuff.

    OTOH you have Charlie Parker and Bud (and Navarro is no slouch either):


    You might be able to get out of this if you use up/down economy picking with some legato, but then there's real issues with locking in the time the way that Joe, say, can. Few, if any, economy players have IMO as good a swing feel as Joe Pass, Charlie Christian, George Benson etc. That type of playing can sound a bit boneless.

    Bit of a sticky wicket, old boy.

  28. #78
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    Kreisberg's way of avoiding this is to play a lot of broken up stuff, but his running 8th lines still all start on the beat:


  29. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I would agree with every word.

    Ultimately I think guitar has got to be guitar. But that’s not way we can’t take stuff that happens to work. Travis picking was inspired by stride for instance.... couldn’t think of a more guitaristic thing though!
    I also agree with every word. the person I'd add to the list that I find astonishing is Metheny: his level of relaxation at even very fast tempos is incredible to me.

  30. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Few, if any, economy players have IMO as good a swing feel as Joe Pass, Charlie Christian, George Benson etc. That type of playing can sound a bit boneless.
    Really? I hear nothing unusual in that clip. Joe's a great player but there's so many players that sound equally good on tempi like this. Or better even. My list is long and reads like a who's who in jazz guitar. Heck, I know many good players that are not very known that can do this pretty well.

    What am I missing here?

    DB

  31. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine View Post
    OMG *love* MVIs playing, although I don't think of him as a shredder. (He may very well be, guess I should go back and listen for that.) I just love his musical, melodic ideas, his phrasing, and his tone.
    I never said MVI was a shredder. The word "shredder" has no place in jazz and frankly, I find it idiotic to even use it in a jazz context. It suggests that playing fast is an outside category or something freakish. It hardly is.

    Like I said earlier, ALL my favourite players can play fast and some incredibly so. Joe and Tal did it a long time ago but the contemporary ones are often even faster if needs be.

    MVI, JVR, Doug Raney, Pat Martino, GB, Bireli (nobody on the planet is faster), Ulf Wakenius, Andreas Oberg, Frank Gambale, Mark Whitfield etc. etc. I could go on.

    DB

  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog View Post
    The word "shredder" has no place in jazz and frankly, I find it idiotic to even use it in a jazz context.
    damn shots fired
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  33. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    damn shots fired
    Not sure what you mean.

    It's like when somebody asks me if I play lead or rhythm guitar. Huh?

    Some terms do not translate well to jazz territory. No offense to the OP.

    DB

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog View Post
    Really? I hear nothing unusual in that clip. Joe's a great player but there's so many players that sound equally good on tempi like this. Or better even. My list is long and reads like a who's who in jazz guitar. Heck, I know many good players that are not very known that can do this pretty well.

    What am I missing here?

    DB
    I don't think I was really talking specifically about that clip at that point. I think a lot of pickers could handle that tempo just fine, including myself, but I'm not sure if that many guitarists would be able to break away from that downbeat thing I was talking about.

    Perhaps you've got some ideas?

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog View Post
    I never said MVI was a shredder. The word "shredder" has no place in jazz and frankly, I find it idiotic to even use it in a jazz context. It suggests that playing fast is an outside category or something freakish. It hardly is.

    Like I said earlier, ALL my favourite players can play fast and some incredibly so. Joe and Tal did it a long time ago but the contemporary ones are often even faster if needs be.

    MVI, JVR, Doug Raney, Pat Martino, GB, Bireli (nobody on the planet is faster), Ulf Wakenius, Andreas Oberg, Frank Gambale, Mark Whitfield etc. etc. I could go on.

    DB
    What a grump!

    But yes, I agree, and know what you mean. It's really not about that, of course.

    (Not ALL my favourite players can rinse top tempos like that, but they all have a way of coping with fast tempos. Something I find it more interesting to hear someone without super picking chops do it, like Jim Hall.)

    OTOH it's a bit of fun. Actually I see nothing wrong in someone who might not perhaps be able to hear jazz the way you can getting sucked in by watching the sheer athleticism of accomplished jazz guitarists. I know it was part of it for me early on.

    Now I'll get of your lawn. :-)

  36. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I don't think I was really talking specifically about that clip at that point. I think a lot of pickers could handle that tempo just fine, including myself, but I'm not sure if that many guitarists would be able to break away from that downbeat thing I was talking about. Perhaps you've got some ideas?
    Ah I see. Yeah that's a different thing alltogether. Guitarists tend to sound like well ... guitarists. I am guilty of the same thing. I can handle fast tempi pretty well but I tend to sound like a guitarist and not like Bird.

    But then, I don't think there's a single guitarist on the planet that sounds like Bird. It just cannot be done.

    One of my best viewed vids is where I am playing a few Bird solos note by note in real time over the original recording. I could reproduce it but that's about it. What Bird is playing is totally unguitaristic and I could never ever create that myself.

    I sometimes read stuff in which people say that a particular guitarist plays like Bird. I usually take that with a grain of salt. Truth is I have never really heard a guitarist that REALLY phrased like Bird. Or sounded anything like him. Is that bad? Not really ...

    DB

  37. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    What a grump!
    Grumpy? Heck yes. I can't play much at the moment. Typing about guitar is the best I can do for now. And it ain't the real thing by far.

    DB

  38. #88
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    Hope you get back to it soon man, tends to improve my mood

  39. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Kreisberg's way of avoiding this is to play a lot of broken up stuff, but his running 8th lines still all start on the beat
    you know, a lot of Bud Powell's stuff is more on the beat than I really realized. yesterday I was playing a sessions and we were playing "crazeology" and I was struck with how downbeat centric it is, vs something like "moose the mooche". even "celia" has a lot of phrases where the downbeat is very clear, in the sense that the phrase marcates the downbeat in a way that you don't often find in bird tunes.

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