The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Didn't know where to put this question, so I put it here.

    A lot of insecure/not-so-advanced/rookie players have the tendency to mess up the end of their phrases. Even if they begin nicely the melody line and/or the rhythm/groove gets destroyed sometimes even within the last 2 notes, or so...

    So, as a rule - metaphorically speaking - "landing" a phrase seems to be so much more difficult to them than starting one.

    I must admit, listening to my oldest recordings, I was no exception. I got over it but still haven't got a clue why I did it in the first place.

    Those of you who teach, can confirm?
    Any theories?


    PS. There should be a "Teaching the Guitar" board to discuss teaching from the teachers perspective... what do you think?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Certainly,

    Im sure there’s lots of causes, but not having/HEARING a “destination” is certainly a big one.

  4. #3

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    Maybe it depends what they're playing to. Sentences are easy to mess up and get confused over. Maybe they're playing like they speak and can't think of the right thing to do it with

  5. #4

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    because they're
    Quote Originally Posted by DonEsteban
    insecure/not-so-advanced/rookie players

  6. #5

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    it's the sound of being "unsure," trepidation.

    I'm always amazed at what utter shit I can get away with because I play it with attitude

  7. #6

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    Being musical is not so much a matter of What or How, but an issue of WHY. I think we've been taught so much of what to play or how to do it, but the issue of why you say something, making a statement or phrase with brevity, comes with confidence.
    When I'm playing with others, I'll often use free improvisation as a way to hone awareness. There's an overwhelming temptation to fill space with "stuff" rather than breathe a phrase. Interestingly enough, horn players, especially trumpet players, don't seem to have the tendency to noodle into oblivion. Maybe breathing has something to do with hearing the value of space.

    Something to be said for going out to hear live music too. I think there's a tendency to practice how we process, and by extension, to play what we practice. Being immersed in the options (overwhelming options) of ordering notes into scales and arpeggios, rhythmic considerations often come as a later priority. But going out to see good music, good improvisational music that involves listening and interacting, there's a cadence of phrasing that I find easy to feel, easy to emulate and lasting in the way I conceive of the music. I learned a lot from being around live music; more for me than recorded music.

    David
    Last edited by TH; 01-30-2019 at 08:26 AM.

  8. #7

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    When I was in seminary, I took a homiletics (preaching) course. The rector's phrase for ending a sermon was "landing the plane." (That phrase in the OP brought this to mind.) For most of us, that was the hardest thing to get right.

    It takes some players a long time to get used to silence. And that's what phrase endings are about: something that enriches the following silence. Charlie Christian was great at this. (He was also great at the other end: starting a solo, or "taking off.")

    I think vintagelove was on to something: you need to know your destination, know when you have arrived. BAM, that's it. But if you don't recognize a good landing point...

    One remedy for this might be to take some ending lines that grab you and play 'em to death until you know why they work so well. (And hey, if you can't think of a good ending, playing a good one you already know is the next best thing.)

    Some say "bebop" got its name from that tag ending on so many classic bop phrases.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Being musical is not so much a matter of What or How, but an issue of WHY. I think we've been taught so much of what to play or how to do it, but the issue of why you say something, making a statement or phrase with brevity, comes with confidence.
    When I'm playing with others, I'll often use free improvisation as a way to hone awareness. There's an overwhelming temptation to fill space with "stuff" rather than breathe a phrase. Interestingly enough, horn players, especially trumpet players, don't seem to have the tendency to noodle into oblivion. Maybe breathing has something to do with hearing the value of space.

    David
    Yes , stopping to take a breath makes you think about playing concise phrases .
    My saxophone teacher at college ( I was a saxophone player ) used to stop me in the middle of a chorus and make me sing back the last phrase I'd played . If I couldn't he'd say " if you can't sing it , why did you play it "?

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    it's the sound of being "unsure," trepidation.

    I'm always amazed at what utter shit I can get away with because I play it with attitude
    What you say here applies to me as it relates to my solo; when I'm starting a solo I know I have time to work it out; to develop the melodic ideas I have in my head, so I'm relaxed, and 'in the moment', but as I get to the last few bars, I use to believe I had to 'rush' and get out all those ideas, and this sounded 'unsure' and clunky.

    Took me years to get over this and realize I didn't need to 'get out all those ideas' but instead just provide a solid and smooth transition to the next soloist.
    Last edited by jameslovestal; 01-30-2019 at 02:20 PM.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Being musical is not so much a matter of What or How, but an issue of WHY. I think we've been taught so much of what to play or how to do it, but the issue of why you say something, making a statement or phrase with brevity, comes with confidence.
    When I'm playing with others, I'll often use free improvisation as a way to hone awareness. There's an overwhelming temptation to fill space with "stuff" rather than breathe a phrase. Interestingly enough, horn players, especially trumpet players, don't seem to have the tendency to noodle into oblivion. Maybe breathing has something to do with hearing the value of space.

    David
    I dunno... I have seen a LOT of sax players who noodle as bad as guitarists. Trumpet players, not so much. But sax players are as bad on this as we are.

  12. #11
    I think it's because the ending gives context. You can syncopate, displace beat slightly, stretch tensions in the harmonic real estate within measures etc etc, but if it doesn't resolve rhythmically in a strong way it sounds wrong.

    I'm especially aware of this issue in my own playing when working new ideas. This is the part that has to be worked out the most. It has to end correctly. If you take something like melodic sequencing, they basically could go on as long as you want . The real thing is to make it resolve in the end well.

    Somehow almost anything is perceived as kind of working if it ends correctly.

  13. #12

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    My 2 cents:

    Breathing is important. Breathing is an unconscious thing. It has to stay that way to be effective, but if I catch myself thinking about it I take a deeper breath and move one. Poor breathing can muck up everything.

    Also, I try to use my instrument as my voice in a dialogue. It sounds like a cliche to say that, but phrases can be fragments, complete sentences, or paragraphs that speak to the next one. And the next one is a response born out of listening to the previous one, or the one previous to that, and so on and so forth. You can even break down phrases further to the point where the beginning of one speaks to middle and ending of it.

    Lastly, Mr. Beaumont has a good point about attitude. If things go haywire during a phrase, I rely on my technique (a good reason to practice technique IMHO) to pull myself out of it. Vibrato, trill, hammer-on, slide, whatever to take me somewhere. If you have a good ear you can pivot off of it. I thought I read somewhere that Joe Pass said something like the right note may only be a half step away. You can kind of turn that around to mean that there are no wrong notes only some may need more effort.

  14. #13

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    People remember much better how well you end a tune than how you started it, so it makes sense that the same principle might apply to each phrase of a solo.
    It would be educational to post some before & after examples of phrases poorly executed vs. improved. I’m sure I could find a bunch of examples from old recordings of my own, but I’d be too ashamed to expose them here. ;-)
    Last edited by KirkP; 01-30-2019 at 01:25 AM.

  15. #14

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    I think most new players can be quite aimless. At first you are mostly concerned with notes and trying to play nice sounding notes. Phrasing usually comes later, after you feel like you can play nice notes then you have room in your mind to start considering phrases. It takes some foresight to play a nice phrase, it takes even more experience and mental steadinmess to play one nice phrase after another, it takes even more experience and mental steadiness to play interesting and varied phrases that take your listener on a journey.

    all the best
    Tim

  16. #15

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    Early bebop soloing advice was to end phrases on offbeats. Not sure if this relates to OP's observation. Ending on an offbeat in the middle of a measure might not sound that tidy.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pycroft
    Yes , stopping to take a breath makes you think about playing concise phrases .
    My saxophone teacher at college ( I was a saxophone player ) used to stop me in the middle of a chorus and make me sing back the last phrase I'd played . If I couldn't he'd say " if you can't sing it , why did you play it "?

    Joe Pass said something similar in one of his instructional videos: "If you can't repeat what you just played, it isn't music." (That's not an exact quote. His point was that it would not be music coming from you.)

    Deliberately practicing this. (And also playing the same idea in different places on the guitar, changing the string set and fingering, is a crucial exercise for guitarists.)

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Joe Pass said something similar in one of his instructional videos: "If you can't repeat what you just played, it isn't music."
    I guess that makes Philip Glass a great musician!

    David

  19. #18

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    Phrasing? I listen to Miles.

  20. #19
    Because they're still learning?

  21. #20

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    Interesting input, food for thought, thanks everybody!

    I had a long conversation last night with a fellow musician (piano, singer, teacher) and she added one more thing.

    Lots of folks, she said, stop listening when they start "doing" (be it singing or playing a instrument).

    So they try to find a good entry point - we talking about improvisation here - and that might be perfectly in time, but as soon they are playing or singing, this activity claims 100% of their capacity and they are no longer able to listen to the rest of the music/band while they do it. How they come out at the end (of phrase or solo) depends of their personal timing skills, but will always be a bit erratic.

    It's a kind of "close you eyes and hope for the best" thing. Only that's the ears we're talking about here. In aviation they call it blind flight, but they have their instruments at least.

    If this is true it'll also explain to some extent why newcomers have such terrible problems keeping the form. If they stop listening while they play it's easy to get lost.

    Does that ring a bell?

  22. #21

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    I think that is a good observation on her part.

  23. #22
    It's certainly a plausible explanation.

  24. #23

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    It seems like a reasonable, er, whatever.

  25. #24

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