BACH and jazz guitar

[kris]

[docsteve]

This is the way Bach should be played on jazz guitar. Too bad his website is down, I‘d love a copy of his album. I should track him down - from what I gathered he lives just down the road.


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[citizenk74]

Lovely!

[christianm77]

Don’t worry Jonah will be along in a tick to say it’s awful.

[christianm77]

I really like the tone he uses....

[marcwhy]

Or like this:

[neatomic]

^ the genius ted greene ..improvising on bach and talking about it at the same time!! hah

his reverby tone bears a resemblance to earlier work by great john renbourn

also trem heavy

who in turn borrowed from sandy bull..who was doing "solo electric guitar bach" in 1965!!...fender twins reverb jacked

cheers

[docsteve]

Now THAT's awful.

[joe2758]

ouch

[kris]

[christianm77]

I actually know Joe, but mostly as a Gypsy Jazz player.... This Bach two part invention is kind of a classic guitar thing no? GHex plays it but in a funny key so he can do it on one guitar.

Also, nice example of a pivot D harmonic minor line at the start Barry fans.

[David B]

My friend Tom Ollendorff has recently been sharing some performances of Bach's two-part inventions.

[christianm77]

That's really excellent playing. Loving the tone of that guitar as well....

[Cunamara]

In case you were wondering how Pasquale Grasso gets his hands to move like that.

[docsteve]

Not wishing to disrespect anyone, but most of these videos show a wonderful dexterity paired with absolutely no feeling for the polyphony and counterpoint in Bach's music - as if there was only one line going on, not two or three or even four at the same time.

I guess that's what puts me off most "Bach on Jazz guitar" performances. Even Ted Greene seems to think in terms of chord changes, not interwoven lines. Compare that to Renato's phrasing.

[christianm77]

Not wishing to disrespect anyone, but most of these videos show a wonderful dexterity paired with absolutely no feeling for the polyphony and counterpoint in Bach's music - as if there was only one line going on, not two or three or even four at the same time.

I guess that's what puts me off most "Bach on Jazz guitar" performances. Even Ted Greene seems to think in terms of chord changes, not interwoven lines. Compare that to Renato's phrasing.

Hi Jonah! :-)

I agree with your basic point most jazz guitarists take on this music is pretty flat. But most jazz guitarists have pretty flat phrasing full stop. It's something you hear in most modern players - flat, metronomic, very small dynamic range, even articulation. It's the aesthetic and possibly the technique... I don't mean that as a criticism, some of my favourite modern players play that way - it's just an observation...

That said, the sheer achievement of playing the 2 part inventions solo like Gilad and Tom is impressive to me from the POV of guitar playing.... And Bach with flat phrasing still sounds good.

But yeah, it's an exercise for jazzers and that's fair enough. The thing is, it takes a lot of time to get into the nuance of the notes. Most jazzers just get to the point of playing the notes and move on. For classical musicians, that's just the initial stage.

It's not like Mozart where it's so simple if you don't play with the right phrasing it sounds like shit (which is one reason pianists are terrified of Mozart.)

[christianm77]

Also Ted Greene could improvise that stuff so he gets a pass. :-)

[Hep To The Jive]

Well, I ain't Jonah, but I'd say it's awful, hehe. The Bach piece has rhythm to it, it should! What is it here, it's been treated like some kind of jazz ballad rubato style? No thank you!

I think rubato is a disease. It's abused by jazz guitarists so much, especially playing slow tempo tunes. For some reason people consider it 'pretty' 'sweet' and 'beautiful', but to me it's like a fake smile, hiding lack of character. If I never hear this treatment of Bach again it will be too soon

[oldane]

Hi Jonah! :-)

I agree with your basic point most jazz guitarists take on this music is pretty flat. But most jazz guitarists have pretty flat phrasing full stop. It's something you hear in most modern players - flat, metronomic, very small dynamic range, even articulation. It's the aesthetic and possibly the technique... I don't mean that as a criticism, some of my favourite modern players play that way - it's just an observation...

That said, the sheer achievement of playing the 2 part inventions solo like Gilad and Tom is impressive to me from the POV of guitar playing.... And Bach with flat phrasing still sounds good.

But yeah, it's an exercise for jazzers and that's fair enough. The thing is, it takes a lot of time to get into the nuance of the notes. Most jazzers just get to the point of playing the notes and move on. For classical musicians, that's just the initial stage.

It's not like Mozart where it's so simple if you don't play with the right phrasing it sounds like shit (which is one reason pianists are terrified of Mozart.)

I agree completly. Playing Bach well is a lifetime study. It's not something you do just as an afterthought because you feel like it one day. Bachs music is a self contained universe and you have to absorb yourself in it to do it well. But it's a great exercise for us jazz players - and it's some of the greatest and most beautiful music ever written. However, it's too good to be used as show off pieces.

Here's one who has absorbed himself in Bachs music. It's one of my favorite classical violinists, Ivry Gitlis. The first piece is "Chaconne", the second is "Air" (from a French TV sending for children):

And here's Prelude and Fugue in C major BWV 545 played by Marie Claire Alain. When I listen to it, it's always the last that day. The fugue has a beauty and tranquility which is out of this world and I wouldn't know what to play after it.:

[christianm77]

The Bach Chaconne is the Alpha and Omega of music for me.

One thing to write something like that for orchestra or organ.... Another thing to have a piece performed on a solo violin with the sweep of a whole symphony, based on that most constraining of techniques - a ground bass!

[Endorphins]

Hi Jonah! :-)
That said, the sheer achievement of playing the 2 part inventions solo like Gilad and Tom is impressive to me from the POV of guitar playing.... And Bach with flat phrasing still sounds good.

But yeah, it's an exercise for jazzers and that's fair enough. The thing is, it takes a lot of time to get into the nuance of the notes. Most jazzers just get to the point of playing the notes and move on. For classical musicians, that's just the initial stage.

Good call.

[Jazzstdnt]

Playing contrapuntal music is difficult enough without playing it on closely spaced steel strings, and a pickup. No matter how great the player the instrument choice is sub-optimal. Kudos for the effort though.