What is your favourite jazz manouche song?

[christianm77]

Fascinating stuff Jonah,

I knew there was an obvious connection in the repertoire, and I've even played a very small amount of Russian Gypsy Music, but it's clear to hear how you take this approach to music, mix in a bit of French and a lot of Louis Armstrong, and end up with Django.

[Ol' Fret]

Jazz and manouche music has always been a blend of different cultures.
The lyrics of one of the most famous "Russian" songs Dark Eyes (Les Yeux Noirs, Schwarze Augen) was written by an Ukrainian poet. Its melody was not taken from a traditional gypsy song, but originates from the German Florian Hermann's Hommage Valse Opus 21, arranged and published by S. Gerdels on March 03, 1884.

Django must have loved this song; it features great ambivalent lyrics, like:
"How I love you, How I fear you,
Truly, I saw you at a sinister hour."

Unfortunately, the subtleties of the original expression have often not been taken into account in the translation and performance of such songs, especially on presentations directed for the more upset white public on Broadway. If you compare the original lyric version of Bei Mir Bistu Shein (Bei Mir bist Du Schön) with the famous Andrew Sisters performance in 1937, you'll also notice the difference.

[Jonah]

I hate 'Ochi chornye')))

It is probably some cultural cliche.. but I associate much with decline and degradation... if you look into the Russian literature of the late 19th-early 20th century you will find that 'let's call gypsies' was often the apotheosis of a few days revelry...
and in these years it often seems that they did nothing except sitting, drinking and eating to an excess (often being credited with no chance to pay back) and discussing 'the destiny of Russia'... and then first those who paid they bills (merchants and middle class businessmen) tried to take over the power... but they were not smart enough too.. they all did not think about that huge grey mass that they always talked about but never really took in consideration.. that 'people'.
Chekhov or Dostoyevsky did not live till even first revolution but in their books you can clearly feel how these ignored forlorn faceless people would soon come and just cut throats to their sophisticated masters...
Just like it was in France - only different social class - in 1670 the King and the court laughed at the middle-class merchant trying to play a nobleman and in 100 years later they came and showed who was the last one to laugh.
It works in the same way...

And then they began to relocate to Berlin, Paris, New York... and kept talking about destiny of (now lost) Russia and 'calling gipsies'
and those who stayed finally re-located to kitchens (that in Soviet Union substituted salons) where they kept talking about the destiny of Russia too .... but now only in whispers...
But for both that country they had had before was now totally gone, the most depressing thing was not the tragic circumstances only but the fact that it was really gone forever. I believe in late 19th century Russia really had a chance for something better and had educated talanted people that were able to do that.. that was really a golden age.

Ok... enough of me whining)))

Django really is much above it all... and Woody's Emmet Ray who is clearly American is more Django for me than any Russian gypsy..

and as I said he was really sophisticated. One of my friends - classical musician - when I put on Django for him said with a good smile: Sounds like Yasha Heifets!

[Ol' Fret]

You got some serious points here!


For the musicians involved, the general romanticizing of gypsy / manouche music during the first three decades of the 20th century was just a way of being able to make a living. The same was with the black Americans and their Vaudeville, etc., and early jazz performances.

Some of the blacks even despised Louis Armstrong because, in some performances as a black man, he subserviently made himself ridiculous to the whites. In minority cases, i.e., waifs such as the gypsies and the blacks, most whites never wanted to get to really know about these (sub-)cultures, but more to get their own cliché thinking about these cultures confirmed.
Many earlier Broadway musicals also fall into this category.

Though living conditions have improved, and, fortunately, the fear of contact has become much lower today, what genuine Sinti / Roma (Manouches in France) musicians play for a white audience (gadsche = non-Roma) might be different of what and how they're playing when they stick to themselves. Django Reinhardt was definitely more than one person or musician, depending on the situation. I bet his very best performances were never recorded in the studio - some people tell the same about Wes Montgomery, and others.

Historically, after the events of the February Revolution in 1917, the Russians were more of a divided people than ever before. The Russian musicians having moved to Berlin relocated to Paris or London during the Nazi dictatorship, after the German occupation of Paris they had to migrate again, often to the US, where soon the McCarthyism took place …

The social class system seems to be increasing again today: political, national, cultural or religious discrepancies are being pleaded by the powers that be to divide people. Divide et impera - the power-hungry and possessive man is so easily comprehensible! And even Tucholsky already knew that if "elections changed something they would have been banned for a long time."


Some personal confessions: I owe the old blues musicians and Django Reinhardt my access to jazz music - that's why they'll always have a dwelling in my heart. From Django I love far more his postwar music than most of his more popular pre-war pieces, and I appreciate manouche guitarists playing archtop guitars:

I do have problems with really liking the sound of most Maccaferri / Selmer style gypsy guitars - with one exception to this day: Busato made models.


Jascha Heifetz, though definitely one of the greatest violinists of the 20th century, was never my favorite. Too perfect, too cool, technique- and image-related, and probably a tremendously neuroses-loaded man!
Comparing Django to Heifetz, IMO, would be like apples and oranges, or Charlie Parker and Claude Debussy.


Irony mode on:
1. "Decline and degradation" is what we all will experience, sooner or later. I have to deal with it every day and think about it, just to be prepared - if possible.
OTOH, why not live according to Frank Wedekind's recommendation from 1895?

2. "it often seems that they did nothing except sitting, drinking and eating to an excess (often being credited with no chance to pay back)"

Well, I've always thought this to be the unswerving basics of every true artist existence!

I hate 'Ochi chornye')))

It is probably some cultural cliche.. but I associate much with decline and degradation... if you look into the Russian literature of the late 19th-early 20th century you will find that 'let's call gypsies' was often the apotheosis of a few days revelry...
and in these years it often seems that they did nothing except sitting, drinking and eating to an excess (often being credited with no chance to pay back) and discussing 'the destiny of Russia'... and then first those who paid they bills (merchants and middle class businessmen) tried to take over the power... but they were not smart enough too.. they all did not think about that huge grey mass that they always talked about but never really took in consideration.. that 'people'.
Chekhov or Dostoyevsky did not live till even first revolution but in their books you can clearly feel how these ignored forlorn faceless people would soon come and just cut throats to their sophisticated masters...
Just like it was in France - only different social class - in 1670 the King and the court laughed at the middle-class merchant trying to play a nobleman and in 100 years later they came and showed who was the last one to laugh.
It works in the same way...

And then they began to relocate to Berlin, Paris, New York... and kept talking about destiny of (now lost) Russia and 'calling gipsies'
and those who stayed finally re-located to kitchens (that in Soviet Union substituted salons) where they kept talking about the destiny of Russia too .... but now only in whispers...
But for both that country they had had before was now totally gone, the most depressing thing was not the tragic circumstances only but the fact that it was really gone forever. I believe in late 19th century Russia really had a chance for something better and had educated talanted people that were able to do that.. that was really a golden age.

Ok... enough of me whining)))

Django really is much above it all... and Woody's Emmet Ray who is clearly American is more Django for me than any Russian gypsy..

and as I said he was really sophisticated. One of my friends - classical musician - when I put on Django for him said with a good smile: Sounds like Yasha Heifets!

[Jonah]

Thank you for your posts!
Everything I write here is personal.. I do not pretend to be objective (and do not even care or think that it is even possible).

Some of the blacks even despised Louis Armstrong because, in some performances as a black man, he subserviently made himself ridiculous to the whites. In minority cases, i.e., waifs such as the gypsies and the blacks, most whites never wanted to get to really know about these (sub-)cultures, but more to get their own cliché thinking about these cultures confirmed.
Many earlier Broadway musicals

Interesting thing... in USSR when I was kid a few years before it all went dows in late 80s I tried to find something to read about jazz.. and I bought two books 'The Birth of Jazz' and 'The Birth of Blues'... today I am a bit sceptical about books on American root music written by Russian musicologist.. but those days there were no choice. Besides, though the book contained obligatory social references typical for Soviet special literature.... the books were really informative, contained a lot of historical and musical material including Foster's songs and early ragtimes and minestrals and spirituals etc. the score that were not available otherwise.
The author was Valentina Conen.
Much later I found out how interesting her biography was... her parents were jews who emmigrated to Palestina and then to the States even before October 1917 when she was a little girl.. she studied music and even studied in Juliard but did not graduate and she was a student of Charles Sieger. Later in 1931 the family decided to return to the USSR where she was lucky enough to avoid problems with the authorities and to survive the war that followed and she became a specialist in early American music.
So it turns that she probably had enough experience to talk about the Birth of Jazz as she could almost witness it...)))

"it often seems that they did nothing except sitting, drinking and eating to an excess (often being credited with no chance to pay back)"
Well, I've always thought this to be the unswerving basics of every true artist existence!

But I was not talking about artists here)))

Jascha Heifetz, though definitely one of the greatest violinists of the 20th century, was never my favorite. Too perfect, too cool, technique- and image-related, and probably a tremendously neuroses-loaded man!
Comparing Django to Heifetz, IMO, would be like apples and oranges, or Charlie Parker and Claude Debussy.

I am not a great a fan of him eitehr (as well as my friend ) - I think here the comparison was about brisk virtuosic artistry as part of an aesthetic of a player ..


I thought also about Kreisler and all this variete and cabaret tradition that penetrated the academis scene too..

I think most of Schoenberg (and of course more obviously Berg) is directly connected with this tradition..


'Pierrot lunaire' is in its genre is the same thing that performances of poet/singer Alexander Vertinsky who was extremly important figure in immigration and embodies that kitchy variete style - mix of sentiminality and sophisticated nobleness... note that when he sings his pronunciation is extremly artistic for Russian ear... and also sounds much like a French accent

[basinstreet]

Songe d'automne (but there are so many others...).

that bend in this is boss . feel that only django could get that so right

i love the sound of his post war band ( sorry grappeli...) clarinet really makes it possible to listen to loud, whereas the voilin means i often turn it down a touch

p.s whats the ramone ban?

[Musgo Real]

Never thought that this thread will turn into such a very interesting history lesson about jazz manouche music and it`s backgrounds through 20th century history. I love that. Great inputs by Jonah and Ol`Fret. Respect about your knowledge to this theme.

By the way, Ol`Fret, are you from Germany, too?

[christianm77]

Yeah great stuff, thanks guys.

[backdrifter]

Fun thread!

If solo material counts, then my favorite is “Listen” by Stochelo Rosenberg. The combination of virtuosity and beauty in this piece just blows me away. I’ve put in on repeat and listened for hours in the past!

Another great one is “Sir F.D.” by Biréli Lagrene.

And of course, “Improvisation 1” by Django just blows me away!

[Ol' Fret]

Thank you for your posts!

Everything I write here is personal.. I do not pretend to be objective (and do not even care or think that it is even possible).


Interesting thing... in USSR when I was kid a few years before it all went dows in late 80s I tried to find something to read about jazz.. and I bought two books 'The Birth of Jazz' and 'The Birth of Blues'... today I am a bit sceptical about books on American root music written by Russian musicologist.. but those days there were no choice. Besides, though the book contained obligatory social references typical for Soviet special literature.... the books were really informative, contained a lot of historical and musical material including Foster's songs and early ragtimes and minestrals and spirituals etc. the score that were not available otherwise.
The author was Valentina Conen.
Much later I found out how interesting her biography was... her parents were jews who emmigrated to Palestina and then to the States even before October 1917 when she was a little girl.. she studied music and even studied in Juliard but did not graduate and she was a student of Charles Sieger. Later in 1931 the family decided to return to the USSR where she was lucky enough to avoid problems with the authorities and to survive the war that followed and she became a specialist in early American music.
So it turns that she probably had enough experience to talk about the Birth of Jazz as she could almost witness it...)))
[…]

Just keep it going … political correctness may be good for politicians, but jazz music is more about individuality! Let's even be a bit non-conformist and eccentric sometimes!

Thanks for the story about Valentina Conen; never heard about her … but very well about Valentin Parnach!
In the Soviet Union, the futuristic all-round artist (and non-musician) Valentin Parnach (1891-1951) became the pioneer of jazz.
Parnach, who had lived in France for several years before the revolution, stayed in Paris and Berlin in 1921, where he had the opportunity to hear the music of American 'jazz bands'. As you know, at that time it was not necessarily about real jazz, but more or less salon arrangements of modern dance music. Parnach's enthusiasm was not detracted. In 1922 he appeared with a series of articles in Russian magazines, in which he called for the establishment of jazz bands in the Soviet Union. In the summer of the same year he arrived in Moscow with a collection of jazz instruments and founded the "First Eccentric Orchestra of the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic - Valentin Parnach's Jazzband".


What a nice band name - First Eccentric Orchestra!
Thanks for the encouragement, guys, and, please, forgive the thematic deviations! Have fun!
Yes, Musgo Real, it looks like I'm an older Kraut!

[ragman1]

Yes, but later in the 30's the authorities thought they were being seduced by Western decadence so they cracked down on it. No more visits by foreign bands.

During WW2, of course, we were all on the same side (at one point) so they didn't mind so much. But when all that changed during the Cold War the rejection started again because, naturally, it was the enemy's music. Thankfully, in the great creative boom of the 60's, it flourished again.

The history of jazz in Russia has been full of hiccups. There was another dip later in the 90's when they tried to oust Gorbachev... but we might be okay at the moment :-)

[jaco]

Being sentimental, the first song I heard a gypsy jam play at the Luthiers booths during the annual Django Fesival at Samois sur Seine (it was still on the island back then) was"All of Me" it will always be my favorite.

[Ol' Fret]

While we're on the sentimental, melancholic side: another wonderful composition is Anouman, one of Django's last songs; a minimalist ballad that he wrote for his saxman Hubert Fol:

[Musgo Real]

While we're on the sentimental, melancholic side: another wonderful composition is Anouman, one of Django's last songs; a minimalist ballad that he wrote for his saxman Hubert Fol:

This is such a beautiful sentimental song. I like the original version, too.

[basinstreet]

this is really good. not sure how old they are here, I have a feeling both pretty young

[geese_com]

I am obsessed with Django's version of "I'll See You In My Dreams.

Just for fun I am trying to learn how to play the song with just two fingers on my left hand. It is amazing that he was able to play the whole thing with just two fingers on his left hand. Even more amazing is coming up with the improvisation for this song and the playing.

[reventlov]

Of Django's own tunes, my favourite is probably Dinette; of the post-Rheinhardt repertoire in this field, I particularly enjoy Bossa Dorado. And since Remi Harris has already had a couple of honourable mentions on this thread already, here is his version of it. Remi is, to my mind, one of the most interesting of all UK guitarists; there's a refreshing lack of Django licks in his playing, and although his roots are in the GJ style, he's a virtual walking encyclopedia of jazz guitar history. He's not at all what you might refer to as being on the cutting edge of jazz, but he's a virtuoso player who blends influences in a very pleasing and musical way, and as I discovered when I caught him a few months back at Pizza Express in London, he's an entertaining and engaging performer. He's just as likely to play some Peter Green style blues, or a funk "groove" jam, or a beautiful ballad played on a 12-string, as a GJ tune - he mixes it all up and makes sense out of it all. If he's new to you, set aside 15 or 20 minutes to check out what he does, you won't regret it.

[basinstreet]

I am obsessed with Django's version of "I'll See You In My Dreams.

Just for fun I am trying to learn how to play the song with just two fingers on my left hand. It is amazing that he was able to play the whole thing with just two fingers on his left hand. Even more amazing is coming up with the improvisation for this song and the playing.

oh yeah this solo is great, proper story from start to finish

[ragman1]

These two did some nice things with it too. It's a bit 'easy listening' but never mind :-)

[Musgo Real]

These two did some nice things with it too. It's a bit 'easy listening' but never mind :-)

Haha...at first sight at the image I thought, is this George W. Bush playing guitar with Knopfler in a paralelluniversum?

[ragman1]

It does look like him!

[jameslovestal]

[Musgo Real]

Very nice song.

I like the Bireli version, too.

[KirkP]

Nuages is my #1 from the jazz manouche library, but I never try to imitate that style.

[alez]

Here is mine. Si tu savais, played by Javier Sanches on a Geronimo Mateos Jazz B model.

Javier Sánchez is one of the best guitar players in town, that being Madrid, Spain where he's based (and I am, too). He also plays in a band called Ménilmontant first, now Menil, with Raúl Márquez on violin, they play a lot of Reinhardt-Grappelli stuff really well. It's one of my favourite local bands. I really like to see them live, particularly as they often play in smaller, intimate venues.