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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah you are right the repertoire Django played had many roots

    American jazz standards
    Gypsy songs (dark eyes, two guitars etc)
    Classical Themes (Danse norwegienne, Bach etc)
    Chanson (J’Attendrai)
    Bal Musette (Indifference)
    Original Compositions (Djangology, Hungaria)

    That’s why I dislike the term Gypsy jazz when applied to Django. I find it doesn’t quite reflect the context of those times. He was a great musician who happened to gypsy using the material all around him. His band mates, colleagues and rivals included gypsys and non gypsys.

    So I think listening to Ds contemporaries - Oscar Aleman, Barry Ferret etc, you get the impression that Django was operating within a prevalent style. I don’t think there was any huge difference between Djangos feel and the general rhythm guitar style of that era. Freddie Green played in a similar way in the 30s. 40s Django is a different thing again.

    Obv since Djangos era many themes have been composed by more recent players - Swing Gitane, Bossa Dorado - as well as many additions to the repertoire from more recent jazz, chanson and popular music, and it makes sense to talk about Manouche jazz as it has become a folk tradition within that community.
    Hi Christian, I am on your side what you are writing about the music of this time. I also think that many bands played the "hits" of this era in front of a dancing audience, like J`attendrai, just to earn money for their daily life. That´s what they were paid for. They performed in some kind like the DJ`s of the 70ties and 80ties, just giving the crowd the background music to eat, drink and dance and have a good time to celebrate. I also think that Gypsy Jazz is not the right preample to describe Djangos work. I see him more as an international jazz musician with gypsy roots than a pure jazz manouche guitarist.

    I will inform myself about Aleman, Ferret and others. Thanks for this advice. I appreciate that very much.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musgo Real
    Hi Christian, I am on your side what you are writing about the music of this time. I also think that many bands played the "hits" of this era in front of a dancing audience, like J`attendrai, just to earn money for their daily life. That´s what they were paid for. They performed in some kind like the DJ`s of the 70ties and 80ties, just giving the crowd the background music to eat, drink and dance and have a good time to celebrate. I also think that Gypsy Jazz is not the right preample to describe Djangos work. I see him more as an international jazz musician with gypsy roots than a pure jazz manouche guitarist.

    I will inform myself about Aleman, Ferret and others. Thanks for this advice. I appreciate that very much.
    I particularly like the Ferret brothers records but I have to say as guitarists not quite on a par with DR (!) IMO - interesting to hear though

    Oscar Aleman is a badass tho

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musgo Real
    I like this very much (guitarist is amazing ), but don´t get me wrong and I don´t want to offend anybody, but I hear many elements which I also will hear listening to Stephane Wrembel`s Bistro Fada...strange. Which song was composed first?
    Yeah the Gypsy Jazz waltz is another sub genre. Bistro Fada is easier to play.

    The granddaddy of them is Indifference

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Barry Ferret
    A little-known player from the Croydon branch of the Ferret dynasty.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I don’t know much about it so I just googled it. It turns out Django never recorded it. Apparently he taught it to Matelo Ferret who recorded it about 1960. Matelo didn’t know the name of the tune so he asked Django’s widow, she decided to call it Montagne St. Genevieve after a place Django played in his earlier days.

    So either way it definitely pre-dates Wrembel’s tune.

    By the way I have seen Remi Harris and he is a wonderful player. That CD of his (Ninick) is really excellent.
    Hi grahambop,

    thank you for the informations and your time searching for.
    Although I like the Django`s original version very much, I was very surprised listening to that song and after the fourth bar I recognized, this is Bistro Fada in a more jazzy way. I didn´t know the song Montagne St. Genevieve before and loved Bistro Fada so much...
    You are right, Remi Harris is an amazing guitarist. I have to follow his work.

  7. #31

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    Here’s Remi being a bit cheeky:


  8. #32

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    So many talents … the manouche jazz world seems to be growing and growing!

    Unfortunately, it is still more of a male domain than jazz has always been.
    Kudos to the manouche jazz lady singers - especially, if they do not just copy, but make manouche songs their own:


  9. #33

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    Sweet Georgia Brown is my all time fave.


  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    A little-known player from the Croydon branch of the Ferret dynasty.
    We pronounce the surname the English way

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musgo Real
    This is an amazing version of Si tu savais. Bireli is brilliant.
    What is the name of your manouche swing band? Are there any videos on youtube showing you playing?

    Well, its a new project. We are going to have a concert soon, in december 19th. IF anyone makes a video about that, I am going to try to put it up here.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblues
    Well, its a new project. We are going to have a concert soon, in december 19th. IF anyone makes a video about that, I am going to try to put it up here.
    Sounds good. Hopefully we will see you guys performing soon.
    Last edited by Musgo Real; 12-02-2018 at 06:31 PM.

  13. #37

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    One of my all time favourite jazz manouche guitarists, Angelo Debarre, playing La Gitane.
    At 0:32 have a look at the bass player, so funny, acting like a member of the Muppet Band.


  14. #38

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    Haha, great. Maybe he is having a spasm.

    TBF, Gypsy Jazz gigs are pretty dull on bass, so he has to liven it up for himself somehow.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
    So many talents … the manouche jazz world seems to be growing and growing!

    Unfortunately, it is still more of a male domain than jazz has always been.
    Kudos to the manouche jazz lady singers - especially, if they do not just copy, but make manouche songs their own:

    This is a very nice post. Kudos to all the female jazz manouche musicians. Here are some more:

    Gretchen Menn





  16. #40

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    I've worked with Sara Oschlag in the third video a couple of times and she's a really bloody good jazz singer. Not really 'manouche' only, just great at jazz.

    That New Orleans band really swing. The rhythm guitar is badass, and the lead playing is great, on point, with a nice US flavour of country flatpicking to my ears.

    I think that other lass is a more a rock/metal player? She can play the solo technically (great chops), but you can always tell....

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I've worked with Sara Oschlag in the third video a couple of times and she's a really bloody good jazz singer. Not really 'manouche' only, just great at jazz.

    That New Orleans band really swing. The rhythm guitar is badass, and the lead playing is great, on point, with a nice US flavour of country flatpicking to my ears.

    I think that other lass is a more a rock/metal player? She can play the solo technically (great chops), but you can always tell....
    Sara Oschlag is a great jazz singer, but that second band is really great. The Lady on the rhythm guitar...wish I could play like that.
    Also I like the sound of the archtop, she is playing. What guitar is that?

    Last edited by Musgo Real; 12-03-2018 at 05:01 AM.

  18. #42

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  19. #43

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    Wasn't too impressed with that, Christian. If it didn't have 'Nuages' at the top I'd never have known. To be fair.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Wasn't too impressed with that, Christian. If it didn't have 'Nuages' at the top I'd never have known. To be fair.
    I like the massively 80s production. It's the only sound I like in music.

  21. #45

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    lol

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I like the massively 80s production. It's the only sound I like in music.
    Oh, the sound's fine, it's calling that one 'Nuages' that's suspect!

    I heard this by somebody the other day. You'll like it. The introduction, that is. Not sure about the rest of it


  23. #47

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    eah you are right the repertoire Django played had many roots

    American jazz standards
    Gypsy songs (dark eyes, two guitars etc)
    Classical Themes (Danse norwegienne, Bach etc)
    Chanson (J’Attendrai)
    Bal Musette (Indifference)
    Original Compositions (Djangology, Hungaria)
    The enviroment where this music was played was laso stringly influenced by the 1st wave Russian immigrants of late 10's - early 20's - most of them were aristocracy of different level (and wealth), ex-officers of Russian's Emperor's Army and partly the boheme and people of arts and science.
    Many of them suffered nostalgy for the motherland (specific masochistic Russian thing) and this music was one of the ways to express it...

    Gypsy songs (often even originally with Russian lyrics) and gypsy guitar style of playing were a big part of Russian entertainment world before 1917, it was associated with specific freedom, charm and so and so on.
    Most of romances - Russian urban songs that were popular in salons - were composed as just a bit more elaborated and siphisticated gypsy songs... on the other hand lots of low musica and prison folklire was using the same music in a primitive vulgrized form.

    That's why I can hardly stand even autumn leaves (at least in more or less original setup) - that sounds always brings to me an image of a drunk 'white' office sitting with ex-princesses in some Paris brothel whining about 'that Russia we have lost'..


    Luckily most of Django's records easily overcome that influence and in my opinion are much more americanized.

    With all his straight and kitchy approach (kitchy is good for trad jazz) - Django is extremely subtle musician. He is never blatant...

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    nostalgia for the motherland (specific masochistic Russian thing)
    :-)

    The Brits were a bit like that with India... believe it or not.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    The enviroment where this music was played was laso stringly influenced by the 1st wave Russian immigrants of late 10's - early 20's - most of them were aristocracy of different level (and wealth), ex-officers of Russian's Emperor's Army and partly the boheme and people of arts and science.
    Many of them suffered nostalgy for the motherland (specific masochistic Russian thing) and this music was one of the ways to express it...

    Gypsy songs (often even originally with Russian lyrics) and gypsy guitar style of playing were a big part of Russian entertainment world before 1917, it was associated with specific freedom, charm and so and so on.
    Most of romances - Russian urban songs that were popular in salons - were composed as just a bit more elaborated and siphisticated gypsy songs... on the other hand lots of low musica and prison folklire was using the same music in a primitive vulgrized form.
    ...


    For Berlin, in the 1920s the "capital of the world", the largest in terms of area, in terms of population with 4.3 million the third largest city in the world, this can be confirmed.

    Foreign musicians had entered the country after the monetary stabilization in 1924, lucrative for them, with virtually no control. Most of them were Hungarians, often Jews, who knew how to use the German penchant for gypsy music. Some Spaniards and South Americans benefited from the increasing Tangomania; Americans and Britons capitalized on the audience's desire for jazz - or what was held for it. The number of these foreigners could not be limited, because the Treaty of Versailles had prescribed an open door policy for the German Governments.



    "It smells of Russia in Berlin", writes the author Andrej Bely, who had emigrated from Moscow in 1922 - here "you meet all of Moscow and all of Petersburg". Boris Pasternak, Vladimir Mayakowsky, Maxim Gorky, Ilja Ehrenburg, Alexey Tolstoy, Vladimir Nabokov and countless other Russian writers drowned their homesickness in night cafés such as the Prager Diele on Prager Platz. In 1919, about 70,000 people from the former tsarist empire already lived in Berlin. After Moscow and Petrograd Berlin is soon referred to as the "third capital of Russia". While the poor Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe live in Scheunenviertel in [Berlin-]Mitte, the refugee Russian and Jewish elites live around the Kurfürstendamm, in the noble "Charlottengrad" (Charlottenburg) or "Klein-Sankt-Petersburg" (Wittenbergplatz). Soon the Kurfürstendamm is named "Nepski Prospekt", after the St. Petersburg Nevsky Prospekt and in reference to Lenin's "New Economic Policy" NEP. Especially the area around Wittenbergplatz, the entertainment district of Berlin's West, is firmly in Russian hands - a "hothouse of Russian culture of yesteryear" and "a consecrated place where the dead rise from their graves to cross the glittering Kurfürstendamm Promenade". In total, more than half a million immigrants from Russia, Poland and other eastern countries come to Berlin in the 1920s - including many musicians. The primary reason: in Berlin, they can live much cheaper than in Paris or other European cities.
    The immigrants enriched the cultural life and changed the face of the city.
    (Translated from: 'Jazz in Berlin' by Rainer Bratfisch, 2014)


    One of these Russian musicians must have been a Mr. Kamsirossoff (does anyone know something?), band leader of the 'Kamsirossoff Jazz Band', with a young Wenzel Rossmeisl on the banjo, Berlin in the 1920s:

    What is your favourite jazz manouche song?-roger-story-jazz-band-kamsirossoff-wenzel-rossmeisl-banjo-berlin-1920s-jpg


    Sorry for the deviation into history!
    Attached Images Attached Images What is your favourite jazz manouche song?-roger-story-jazz-band-kamsirossoff-wenzel-rossmeisl-banjo-berlin-1920s-jpg 
    Last edited by Ol' Fret; 12-03-2018 at 02:51 PM.

  26. #50

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    I think Berlin was the first stop on the way from Russia... some stayed there and some later moved on to Paris... especially in 30s ... and then on to the Satates


    By the way there is guy in Iowa who historically studies Gispy guitar and performs authentic music on real historical instruments - Oleg Timofeev... he performs and even issued methods on Russian Gispsy guitar




    Oleg Timofeyev - Wikipedia