Raw Groove

[rpjazzguitar]

This thing about upbeats has been mentioned to me by some great players.

I get the impression that some people have the feel and some don't -- and if you don't, you're going to struggle to try to get it.

So, teachers try to break it down into some kind of analysis, but I get the feeling that an analytical approach just doesn't help that much.

It is so many different things: great inner sense of time, great energy, the ability to get a good sound while playing loud enough to affect the group, perfectly placing the note-attack and then perfectly placing the release of the note, good lines and chord sequences, exuding enough confidence and clarity so that the rest of the rhythm section falls into line with you, etc etc etc.

So, you get your foot tapping consistently, you practice upbeats, you try to get good voice leading, a good sound, etc etc and it all can fail (don't ask me how I know this).

What I've found is that one great player can sit in with any of my groups and, by virtue of how well they comp, they elevate the group's play to the point where I can't stand what we were doing at first.

[Boston Joe]

Foot tapping is an interesting thing.

One teacher made a point of looking at feet and commenting on what he called "good foot".

I find that, when I'm reading syncopated lines, tapping my foot really helps. But, I notice that some of the horn players, reading the same (or more complex) lines, don't tap at all.

Some people just tap their toes inside their shoes.

[Robertkoa]

I have noticed that truly great players have a sense of groove to their playing that separates them from the merely competent players.

The question is, after you've done enough homework with scales and arps and technique etc etc etc etc, if you still don't have that intense swing to your playing, what can you do to acquire it?

I don't know, but I absolutely certain it is not the usual technical stuff -- great players can swing playing a major scale against a major chord at a moderate tempo playing quarters and eighths. It's not about chops, it's not about mastery of scales etc. It may have to do with rhythmic vocabulary.

I know people who have it who never use a metronome -- and people who practice with the metronome constantly and have bad time. Maybe a metronome helps -- I don't know -- but maybe not.

But how do you work on it?

I have only one semi-useful answer. I try to play, as much as possible, with people who have it, hoping it wil rub off.

Maybe practice to quantized drums with an emphatic definite beat kick drum snare patterns etc.

Also 'swing' is a very vague foggy thing in especially Jazz Musician's minds and ears. (just telling the truth here ).

If you want to sharpen your 'time ' which I am not even sure can be done for everyone...

Do it by playing over different restrictive type beats , NOT beats that are more open to interpretation and playing in Rhythmic Unison to different parts of the track.

I am NOT teaching you how to 'swing' just teaching you to -tighten your time to a 'known exact fixed quantity'.

THEN once you are sharper you can fool around with evenly spaced notes in single lines and possibly imitate and get a feel for someone's playing .POSSIBLY.

If we had a question/thread about which Guitarist had has the best 'swing' and you
LISTEN to the wide range of Players who sound and play so differently from each other you will realize there is a rather wide range ..
If you sharpen and tighten your time to fixed quantized metronomes and better yet Drum and Snare and hi hat patterns you will learn to SYNC to different parts...

Once that is sharp or much sharper you will play and sound better anyway syncing rhythm parts and solo parts to key downbeats of the tracks- SYNCING to downbeats is how Classical and almost ALL good musicians play and is the ONLY way for tight ensemble playing in any style.

Once you get that down you MAY be able to understand all the ways people think they can teach you to 'swing' but you will be tighter and more accurate Player anyway.

This is kind of like on the how to be a 'Healer ' threads on other Forums ...'learn Medicine first '..lol.

Imitating other Players is fine BUT when you Practice ..always lock to a beat or pulse or metronome...imagine your OWN playing and get it to 'lock '...land your last notes of a phrase on the 1 ...then land on other definite beats .

Can you ' hear '/ imagine a swinging imaginary part in your mind ?

Can you you hear /imagine a swinging imaginary line over a drum track ?

When you can do that you can practice Playing what you 'hear'/imagine in your mind.....
THEN you become a 'generator' rather than imitator.

Also if you can't lock to heavy funk and R&B beats and record the result to be certain ...you are missing out on what Raw Groove really is .....

[christianm77]

They all usually swing their upbeats when playing 8th notes tho as far as I can see when they play swing feels. Slow down their solos, sing the swung 'ands' and see if you disagree. Examples welcome.

Anyway I had fun today recording straight against swing, and then trying to push it back by about 1/6 of a beat on my DAW to make it swing. My thoughts after about an hour of this tomfoolery:

1) It works, but you have to be super accurate and consistent with your straight upbeat placement

2) which leads me to the fact that I think my straight off beat placement is less consistent than my swing. I know this, because I was told off for playing cavaquinho like a trad jazz banjoist (swung upbeats right?) on a samba course :-) I've worked on it, but I have to FIGHT the tendency to habitually swing my upbeats. It's quite funny.

Makes sense I practice the latter more often, have probably played a couple of thousand swing gigs (with lots and lots of medium swing for dancers) in the last few years, and the vast majority of my gigs are jazz. I think straight 8s is something I need to learn lock into better. Might get some funk gigs, who knows?

So THAT was a useful finding if nothing else.

3) straight upbeats against swung sounds cool (I knew this anyway, but not something I tend to practice, see above.) It's definitely a placement that players use, another colour. I hear Benson swapping to this placement, Grant Green, Lester Young, Miles too. Again the 4/4 6/8 dichotomy. Central to swing.

4) Regardless of any wrangles about you do x, y or z to swing, an terribly important aspect for any musician's education is to be able to really lock into swung (triple time) or straight upbeats, even before we can address more sophisticated shades of grey between these extremes.

5) needless to say the 'pushing back' thing only works for 8th note lines, and upbeat figures obviously. Triplets have to happen on the beat, as do isolated 1/4 and 1/2 notes.

Back to the shed....

[mr. beaumont]

Honestly, if anybody could tell me what I'm swinging here, or if I even am, I'd appreciate it. All these recent mathematical exposition of swing threads are just proving to me what a dumb guitar player I am.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Honestly, if anybody could tell me what I'm swinging here, or if I even am, I'd appreciate it. All these recent mathematical exposition of swing threads are just proving to me what a dumb guitar player I am.

Yes sir, that totally swings. The background vocalization was perfectly placed as well.

But honestly, you're simply doing too much with the upbeats to exempt yourself from the mathematical analysis discussion.

Sorry, but that was both viscerally AND quantifiably hip. :-)

[Hep To The Jive]

Honestly, if anybody could tell me what I'm swinging here, or if I even am, I'd appreciate it. All these recent mathematical exposition of swing threads are just proving to me what a dumb guitar player I am.

yea, and thanks for the double stops! You hear people, thats what missing in today's jazz, please pay attention here!

[christianm77]

What guitar is that? I particularly like the child noises in the background :-)

Can I get in on the Lester Leaps In vibes?

Jeff you liked it on Facebook already. Still I will inflict on everyone else.

[mr. beaumont]

Thanks gents...and Christian, I still like it, so I'm liking it again. You play a much straighter swing, much more bebop. I'm stuck in 1939 or something.

Oh, it's a Heritage 575, my side chick from my tele, for the last 7 years or so.

[christianm77]

I was digging those Charlie C vibes tho in your video - that first bridge is like Wooooaaaa

[Hep To The Jive]

What guitar is that? I particularly like the child noises in the background :-)

Can I get in on the Lester Leaps In vibes?

Jeff you liked it on Facebook already. Still I will inflict on everyone else.

Yea, but there's no double stops... It sounds like bebop or something... Which is cool I guess, but if we're talking about Lester vibes, or raw groove...

My taste is weird though, totally ignore

[Hep To The Jive]

Thanks gents...and Christian, I still like it, so I'm liking it again. You play a much straighter swing, much more bebop. I'm stuck in 1939 or something.

Oh, it's a Heritage 575, my side chick from my tele, for the last 7 years or so.

I woudn't call 'stuck in 1939', it's a truly fresh perspective on jazz, that's how I look at it.

[pauln]

The duration of written notes (paper rhythm) is often modified by the player (alterations in "beat width", which is basically how much ahead or behind one can play and still sound "right"... jazz swing, groove, funk, etc.). On the other hand, played notes (with some rhythmic interpretation a la using a fat beat width) tend to get transcribed to paper rhythm (simplified back to straight notation).

Subdivision offers greater resolution of the leading and trailing edges of variations in beat width (setting those edges of the note duration on the "ands" of 8ths, 16ths, 32nds, and triplets thereof, etc.). Depth of one's subdivision allows extending coherence and control to fatter beat widths.

But the point is, one has to distinguish what I describe in the first paragraph from the second... apparent incidental displacement of note edges vs intentional and controlled displacement of note edges.

Christianm77 has mentioned always synching to the upbeats... it is this kind of thing that is managed by beat width. One of the primary advantages of having a fat beat width is that you can more easily fit among other instruments (so you are not contending to occupy the exact same instant for your note edges).

[citizenk74]

Honestly, if anybody could tell me what I'm swinging here, or if I even am, I'd appreciate it. All these recent mathematical exposition of swing threads are just proving to me what a dumb guitar player I am.

Def swings. Xtra points for Bob Ross happy T-shirt.

[rictroll]

I’ve played drums and vibes/marimba for 50+ years. It helps when playing guitar - especially in ensemble.

And playing guitar helps my drumming by keeping me more focused on the form.

Bang on a drum.