View Poll Results: Which is African American's most important artistic invention, and why?

Voters
43. You may not vote on this poll
  • Jazz

    16 37.21%
  • Hiphop

    0 0%
  • Blues

    25 58.14%
  • Soul

    0 0%
  • Motown

    0 0%
  • Soul

    0 0%
  • Disco

    1 2.33%
  • Other

    1 2.33%
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Posts 51 to 84 of 84
  1. #51

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    Scroll down to the menu. There's ceviche ice cream. Ceviche for those that don't know is a raw fish salad ''cooked'' by marinating it in lime juice.

    This menu and venue are only one of many.

    Ice Cream in Dolores Hidalgo; a Guide to Flavors | Home Along The Way

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Difficult question to answer. Jazz concepts - the rhythm section, bass, syncopation, the drum kit - are so ingrained not only in later popular music forms like soul, rock and roll and so on, but also in the heritage of programmed and sampled music.

    Kendrick demonstrated to the mainstream on ‘....for free?’ That rapping and jazz concept of swing are not too far away, not that fans of both hip hop and jazz would have been in doubt anyway.

    The rhythmic aspect and the spoken language have always been interlinked, as in fact they are for all music.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    OK, but what's your favourite ice cream flavour then?
    That's not fair. I can't decided.
    I'm going to be thinking about ice cream all day.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    ... so anyway, where were we... are we done? So you guys feel Blues is a higher art form than Jazz? Or just more influential? I'll stop pesterin' once we hit 50 votes... promise
    Well - the original question was about "most important" not "highest". Blues has informed and influenced more other genres/styles than any other style mentioned...
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    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  6. #55

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    Jazz is more important than blues (as in Robert Johnson) in that all the important aspects of popular music were established in jazz, and then inherited by later forms.

    However - can we really put much of a gap between T Bone and Charlie Christian - between Bessie Smith and Billie Holiday? Between Lonnie Johnson and Leadbelly?

    And remember that many of the older blues musicians were also jazz musicians who found themselves on the blues circuit (at least that’s what Eric Clapton said!)

  7. #56

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    OTOH blues is fundamental to good jazz imo, but jazz is not fundamental to good blues.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    OTOH blues is fundamental to good jazz imo, but jazz is not fundamental to good blues.

    In his book "Early Jazz" Gunther Schuller claims that jazz wouldn't have developed the way it did if it hadn't received a life-saving shot of blues (meaning that musicians started to incorporate more of the blues style into their playing) in its earlier stages - according to his opinion it would've stalled as just another type of orchestral dance music....
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    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  9. #58

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    which came first, jazz or blues? Discuss.

  10. #59

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    "There's only two kinds of music: Good music and bad music." (Duke Ellington)
    "But if they all play like me, then who am I?" (Lester Young)

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    OTOH blues is fundamental to good jazz imo, but jazz is not fundamental to good blues.
    Try telling that to BB King, Dinah Washington, Bobby Blue Bland, Louis Jordan, T-Bone Walker, Big Joe Turner, Memphis Slim, Jay McShann ...

    John

  12. #61

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    Well that's a logical fallacy innit? How much jazz is there in John Lee Hooker?

  13. #62

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    Anyway I've voted for disco cos this is a stupid thread. ;-)

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well that's a logical fallacy innit? How much jazz is there in John Lee Hooker?
    John Lee Swings like crazy. "Let that boy Boogie-Woogie! 'Cause it's in him, and it's got to come out!"
    Best regards, k

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74 View Post
    John Lee Swings like crazy. "Let that boy Boogie-Woogie! 'Cause it's in him, and it's got to come out!"
    Well here we are getting into definitions of what is jazz. I'm not going down that rabbit hole again... See ya!

  16. #65

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    (You are right BTW.)

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well that's a logical fallacy innit? How much jazz is there in John Lee Hooker?
    No, it isn't a logical fallacy, or any other sort of fallacy. It's a counter-example to your generalization. I'm not positing a different generalization, I'm saying that blues is not one thing that can be played without jazz. There are forms of blues for which and artists for whom jazz is fundamental.

    John

  18. #67

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    Bling, Horns (!!), Wolfman Jack , the 'Ohio Players' and...

    DISCO!



    Get Hip, Neanderthals.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    No, it isn't a logical fallacy, or any other sort of fallacy. It's a counter-example to your generalization. I'm not positing a different generalization, I'm saying that blues is not one thing that can be played without jazz. There are forms of blues for which and artists for whom jazz is fundamental.

    John
    Ok, logic; my argument was that blues *can* exist without jazz, so that’s not a generalisation. It’s also a statement that cannot be invalidated by listing counter examples. All it takes is one example to prove the statement true (and I would say maybe John Lee Hooker, Howlin Wolf and a few others.)

    A generalisation would be ‘most or all blues artists weren’t influenced jazz.’ I did not say that cos that would be a stupid thing to say.

    The counter argument (given above) could be based around the definition of jazz. I’m not sure I have the patience to debate that lol :-) But since the artists you listed all have an obvious jazz influence I think we are on the same page with that.

    Don’t put words in my mouth, dude!

    There’s also a difference between pulling someone up on essentially strawmanning your statement (plague of the internet that is) and disagreeing with their actual point.

    I think a lot more blues greats have jazz in their music than people think. Robert Johnson would be a great example.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-14-2018 at 05:44 AM.

  20. #69

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    If you want to say blues/jazz is a continuum (as indeed is all American music) I couldn’t disagree...

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    I think a lot more blues greats have jazz in their music than people think. Robert Johnson would be a great example.
    Since I have "studied" the man's music for more than fourty years I can wholeheartedly agree there. Just look for those dim7 chords and secondary dominants for example. My thinking is that most of the prewar guitar players in blues who have a distinct jazz influence in their guitar arrangements borrowed that from piano players...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Ok, logic; my argument was that blues *can* exist without jazz, so that’s not a generalisation. It’s also a statement that cannot be invalidated by listing counter examples. All it takes is one example to prove the statement true (and I would say maybe John Lee Hooker, Howlin Wolf and a few others.)

    A generalisation would be ‘most or all blues artists weren’t influenced jazz.’ I did not say that cos that would be a stupid thing to say.

    The counter argument (given above) could be based around the definition of jazz. I’m not sure I have the patience to debate that lol :-) But since the artists you listed all have an obvious jazz influence I think we are on the same page with that.

    Don’t put words in my mouth, dude!

    There’s also a difference between pulling someone up on essentially strawmanning your statement (plague of the internet that is) and disagreeing with their actual point.

    I think a lot more blues greats have jazz in their music than people think. Robert Johnson would be a great example.
    You obviously have more energy to debate than I do... Kumbaya.

    John

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Ok, logic; my argument was that blues *can* exist without jazz, so that’s not a generalisation. It’s also a statement that cannot be invalidated by listing counter examples. All it takes is one example to prove the statement true (and I would say maybe John Lee Hooker, Howlin Wolf and a few others.)

    A generalisation would be ‘most or all blues artists weren’t influenced jazz.’ I did not say that cos that would be a stupid thing to say.

    The counter argument (given above) could be based around the definition of jazz. I’m not sure I have the patience to debate that lol :-) But since the artists you listed all have an obvious jazz influence I think we are on the same page with that.

    Don’t put words in my mouth, dude!

    There’s also a difference between pulling someone up on essentially strawmanning your statement (plague of the internet that is) and disagreeing with their actual point.

    I think a lot more blues greats have jazz in their music than people think. Robert Johnson would be a great example.
    You obviously have more energy to debate than I do... Kumbaya.

    John

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74 View Post
    John Lee Swings like crazy. "Let that boy Boogie-Woogie! 'Cause it's in him, and it's got to come out!"
    How did I miss this?

    I love John Lee & especially 'Boogie Chillen.' Saw him live near the very end.
    It was a revelatory experience for me as a kid, to say the least.
    And it swings like crazy.

    When I try it I use open "D."

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    You obviously have more energy to debate than I do... Kumbaya.

    John
    I don’t have any energy. I am running entirely on bloody mindedness.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO View Post
    Since I have "studied" the man's music for more than fourty years I can wholeheartedly agree there. Just look for those dim7 chords and secondary dominants for example. My thinking is that most of the prewar guitar players in blues who have a distinct jazz influence in their guitar arrangements borrowed that from piano players...
    Of course jazz didn’t invent that stuff, and there is a grey area between jazz and popular song of the period in general.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    there is a grey area between jazz and popular song of the period in general.
    Which gave birth to a lot of songs that are now "Jazz Standards"....
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I don’t have any energy. I am running entirely on bloody mindedness.
    Throw a little ritalin into the mix and you could probably get something done.

    John

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    Throw a little ritalin into the mix and you could probably get something done.

    John
    Good shout!

  30. #79
    ... I take it no-one wants to throw Hiphop into this discussion?....

  31. #80

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    The roots of hip hop.


  32. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    The roots of hip hop.

    hehe, well, I did ask for it ....

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    The roots of hip hop.

    Is that Justin Beaver?

  34. #83

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    Hip Hop is the best, Jazz is for losers.

  35. #84

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