The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Posts 101 to 125 of 184
  1. #101

    User Info Menu

    It's been a long time since I've worked on Barry's 6th diminished stuff, and I've never studied it via books/dvds, only Barry's classes in NYC in the early 00s, and even then only in passing, since I went to the horn classes. My understanding of it is very fragmented and rusty, so maybe if I summarize the way I thought about it, y'all will tell me where I'm missing stuff.

    - if you play any 6th chord voicing, and take it up a scale but include the diminished and natural 6th, you'll get a sound that ping pongs between diminished and whatever voicing you selected. C G A E -> D Ab B F -> E A C G -> ....

    - for ii chords, use the major scale harmonized this way starting on the IV: So for a Cm7 sound, use an Eb6 voicing.

    - for V chords, several options including melodic minor off the V: So for C7, you can use a Gm scale. Also could use Dbm but I'm reasonably certain Barry wouldn't have said this.

    - For m7b5 chords, can use the melodic minor as if your chord is the vi: So for Em7b5, you could again use Gm

    - there are of course a variety of other ways to negotiate harmony, but basically, the rule of thumb is to find a 6th voicing (can include 2 as well) that expresses the harmonic function of what you're after.

    As I said, very incomplete, quite possibly some of this is wrong or not directly from Barry, but the above stuff has gotten me a surprising amount of mileage. With all this said, what am I missing and/or what do y'all recommend if I wanted to return to studying this stuff?

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald

    - for V chords, several options including melodic minor off the V: So for C7, you can use a Gm scale. Also could use Dbm but I'm reasonably certain Barry wouldn't have said this.
    Barry says you can use Gm6dim for C7 (the minor sixth on the fifth of the dominant) and Dbm6dim (the "tritone's minor") for C7alt (resolving); and also that members of a family of dominants (all derived from the same diminished chord) can be used both in place of one another and in various combinations employing the extra note rules, pivoting and other devices to build lines.

  4. #103

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald
    - there are of course a variety of other ways to negotiate harmony, but basically, the rule of thumb is to find a 6th voicing (can include 2 as well) that expresses the harmonic function of what you're after.
    An important instance of this is that "the sixth on the fifth" of a Maj6 chord is an alternate voicing for that Maj: so C6 and G6 both express CMaj. The significance of this harmonically is that the two chords (and their 6dim scales) have different diminishes (B for C6 and A for G6) which opens up a wide range of movements and approaches (as well as the movements between voicings of C6 and G6 through the "other diminished" i.e. Bb).

  5. #104

    User Info Menu

    pcsanwald,

    No slight on any of the excellent materials now available, but for NYC people with interest, the low priced Tuesday classes
    are still happening when he's in town. Who knows how much longer he can keep this up.
    There would be no books or DVD's if these folks didn't log many hours hanging with Barry directly.

  6. #105

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    An important instance of this is that "the sixth on the fifth" of a Maj6 chord is an alternate voicing for that Maj: so C6 and G6 both express CMaj. The significance of this harmonically is that the two chords (and their 6dim scales) have different diminishes (B for C6 and A for G6) which opens up a wide range of movements and approaches (as well as the movements between voicings of C6 and G6 through the "other diminished" i.e. Bb).
    Nice! This is not something I have explored... So

    C E G A --> C6
    G B D E --> G6

    G 6-dim scale gives these diminishes:

    F#o7 Ao7 Co7 Ebo7

    Which in the key of C, is the second most common set of dim7's you'll find in C major harmony. For instance:

    C6/E Ebo7 Dm7 G7 (the bIII diminished)* and
    F6 F#o7 C6/G (or G6!)

    (What are sometimes called 'the common tone diminished 7th chords' or 'non-leading tone diminished 7th chords' in straight music theory.)

    I was wondering how these common movements are handled in Barry's 6-dim system. Thanks for pointing it out.

    * Barry makes a point of how C6 F6 (Dm7) is linked with a Ebo7 chord
    C E G A
    C Eb Gb A
    C D F A

  7. #106

    User Info Menu

    Hey Rob, do you have enough options yet? Lol....

  8. #107

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    An important instance of this is that "the sixth on the fifth" of a Maj6 chord is an alternate voicing for that Maj: so C6 and G6 both express CMaj. The significance of this harmonically is that the two chords (and their 6dim scales) have different diminishes (B for C6 and A for G6) which opens up a wide range of movements and approaches (as well as the movements between voicings of C6 and G6 through the "other diminished" i.e. Bb).
    This is why I mentioned above somewhere that you should always practice 6th chords in tandem a perfect 4th apart G6 and C6 ( eg, C6 to C° to G6)

  9. #108

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    Barry says you can use Gm6dim for C7 (the minor sixth on the fifth of the dominant) and Dbm6dim (the "tritone's minor") for C7alt (resolving); and also that members of a family of dominants (all derived from the same diminished chord) can be used both in place of one another and in various combinations employing the extra note rules, pivoting and other devices to build lines.

    When you say use D-flat six for C7 ALT, that squares with number two in my Cheat sheet.

    bvi-6 = V7b9#5 (rootless). Db is the bvi6 of F.

    I just reference everything against the I or i. For me it’s much easier that way, and it reinforces the fundamental point of tonal music for me: everything moves back and resolves .

    Or it’s just another way that Julian Lage expressed the Maxim “blah blah blah blah blah blah one “

  10. #109

    User Info Menu

    Main chordal relationships (as I see them)

    dom7 ---> up a fifth ---> m6 (so C7 ---> Gm6) Important minor (if I've used the right term?)
    dom7alt ----> up a semitone ----> m6 (C7alt ---> Gm6) Tritone's minor
    major6--->up a fifth ---> major6 The fifth's sixth
    minor7 = major 6 up a minor third (Dm7 = F6)
    minor7b5 = minor 6 up a minor third (Bm7b5 = Dm6)

    So you can get through everything with just major and minor-6 dim scales, which might simplify learning objectives short term....

    Also, keep the scale stuff simple, and you can build in more complexity later.

  11. #110

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Main chordal relationships (as I see them)

    dom7 ---> up a fifth ---> m6 (so C7 ---> Gm6) Important minor (if I've used the right term?)
    dom7alt ----> up a semitone ----> m6 (C7alt ---> Gm6) Tritone's minor
    major6--->up a fifth ---> major6 The fifth's sixth
    minor7 = major 6 up a minor third (Dm7 = F6)
    minor7b5 = minor 6 up a minor third (Bm7b5 = Dm6)

    So you can get through everything with just major and minor-6 dim scales, which might simplify learning objectives short term....

    Also, keep the scale stuff simple, and you can build in more complexity later.
    And don't neglect the dominants: m7b5 on the third, important minor on the fifth

    And keep in mind how dominant and m6 chords are derived from the diminished

  12. #111

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    And don't neglect the dominants: m7b5 on the third, important minor on the fifth

    And keep in mind how dominant and m6 chords are derived from the diminished
    Sure, but it's good to prioritise learning objectives. With 6 and m6-dim drop2's learned, you can run a whole tune in drop2's

    That's a really good milestone, and low hanging fruit for Rob, when he's got the scales together.

    After that the dom7 (and the dom7b5 - no-one ever remembers that one including me!) can be learned and applied. Or the brothers&sisters, contrary motion, borrowed notes, drop3's, split voicings.... *starts to mist over*

    The DVD's have a clear road map of course, but there so much info. I don't know about anyone else, but I have to set a realistic goal or I just get overwhelmed or pulled too many ways. Obviously, it's far better to really learn one thing than half learn five.

    What happens on JGO is there is so much knowledge and it all gets posted at once, and it's TERRIFYING. I mean, the info on this thread alone could take me a lifetime to fully apply (but then I am quite stupid & slow.)

  13. #112

    User Info Menu

    Er...what was all that?

  14. #113

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sure, but it's good to prioritise learning objectives.

    What happens on JGO is there is so much knowledge and it all gets posted at once, and it's TERRIFYING. I mean, the info on this thread alone could take me a lifetime to fully apply (but then I am quite stupid & slow.)
    I think some people here have a propensity of buying 1 million books and videos and looking at them once or whatever and dabbling in this and that and saying “wow I didn’t really get much out of that”. And then moving onto the next thing. And saying, “wow I didn’t really get much out of that“.

    I was afraid I would be falling in that rabbit hole, so I decided to do three things: learn tunes, focus on Barry Harris, focus on Mike Longo . Which is really two things: focus on tunes, focus on rhythm.

    I’m just a schmo who works a lot and comes home and practices and plays, with a few gigs a year. But mainly for my own benefit. I’ve been working with the stuff for a year now and it’s still not even close to being where it should be. But that’s OK, you just got to keep at it and keep at it and keep at it. It takes a long time to internalize the stuff .

    Barry gives you a framework, a reference point for playing that works and is grounded on the most important aspects of music focused on the important things. For someone like me who never went to school for music, it’s been really good.

    My main project for this year is to have about 25 Beatles songs together that I know them inside and out without thinking. The major minor six diminished system works really well with Beatles melodies.

  15. #114

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Er...what was all that?
    Starting Barry Harris Studies-download-jpg

    It'll be fine - just the maj6 and min6 scales in chords.... It'll all be OK, I promise :-)

  16. #115

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Er...what was all that?
    yeah don’t get frightened! See my post no. 42 - to start with you can cover all the main stuff just with the maj6 and min6 voicings. In fact that’s still what I mostly use.

  17. #116

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    My main project for this year is to have about 25 Beatles songs together that I know them inside and out without thinking. The major minor six diminished system works really well with Beatles melodies.
    Hmmmm.... that sounds like fun... Which songs in particular have you been looking at?

  18. #117

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Hmmmm.... that sounds like fun... Which songs in particular have you been looking at?

    Beatles tunes (N=25)


    Norwegian Wood
    Nowhere Man
    Michelle
    Yesterday
    Tomorrow Never Knows
    Fool on the hill
    Across the Universe
    Strawberry Fields
    In my Life
    Give Peace a chance
    Here Comes the Sun
    While my Guitar Gently Weeps
    Hey Jude
    Happy XMas War is Over
    Blackbird
    Julia
    If I needed someone
    You've got to hide your love away
    And I love her
    Here there and everywhere
    Eleanor Rigby
    Dear Prudence
    For you Blue
    I'll Follow the Sun
    Hello goodbye


    easy to harmonize for example “you’ve got to hide your love away” with F6 and G°.

  19. #118

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ

    I was afraid I would be falling in that rabbit hole, so I decided to do three things: learn tunes, focus on Barry Harris, focus on Mike Longo . Which is really two things: focus on tunes, focus on rhythm.
    Ha! What a cool coincidence. I too decided that Barry Harris + Mike Longo was where I wanted to focus my attention. And, even more coincidentally, I decided my next attempt at a solo arrangement using BH harmonization would be "Yesterday". Do you think Sir Paul has found some mind control technology to get everyone playing his music?

  20. #119

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    What happens on JGO is there is so much knowledge and it all gets posted at once, and it's TERRIFYING. I mean, the info on this thread alone could take me a lifetime to fully apply (but then I am quite stupid & slow.)
    yeah, from reading the follow ups, I think my understanding pretty much squares with what y'all have said. That's exactly the rub, though, what you can summarize in a paragraph can take years to really apply and master.

    thanks to whoever clarified the altered dominant thing as being "the minor of the tritone". The reason I commented that I was reasonably certain barry wouldn't have said that was because I'm nearly positive I've never heard him use the term "altered" for anything. In my experience he's always coming at those sounds either from a diminished, augment, or relative minor perspective, and tends to explain them that way. So him saying "minor of tritone" makes perfect sense, and sounds like something he'd say.

  21. #120

    User Info Menu

    By chance I just came across this blog article by John Hall who I think posts here occasionally. It’s about creating movement on the changes of All Of Me using BH ideas. There’s a PDF at the end of the article.

    John Hall | Music for Guitar | Blog : All of Me - Filling Harmonic Space

  22. #121

    User Info Menu

    Watching Jimmy Bruno's daily videos on YT, reminds me what he said, there's not a million different songs, you can get anywhere if you know how to play turnarounds and have different ways of playing turnarounds.

    My way of getting to a minor6 chord:

    Cm6-Cdim-Gm6

    or

    Eb7-D7-Gm6

    Practicing Drop 2 versions of this on the top stringset (1-4) and inner stringset (2-5) offers plenty of options and variety.

    Staying on the G-6 for a few bars ? alternate the dim chord between inversions of the G-6, which creates MOVEMENT.

    Basic, simple, digestible concepts and ideas that create movement and variety.

  23. #122

    User Info Menu

    Cm6 = Am75
    Co7 = D7b9 (no root)

    Legit voice-leading. I use it a lot.

  24. #123

    User Info Menu

    One thing I do a lot it instead of playing a simple dim7 chord, I go through the inversions but add a note borrowed from the 6 or -6 etc chord.

    You can get the C6 dim scale, but harmonised just on the o7 chord.

    So, in C6-dim

    I play (bottom to top)
    D Ab B F
    D Ab B G
    F B D Ab
    F B D A
    Ab D F B
    Ab D F C
    C F Ab D
    C F Ab E
    etc

    Of course you could do this very simply with the W-H scale, and sometimes that sounds good too (esp for non-leading tone diminished chords like bIIIo7) I think we can call this scale the dim7-dim? :-)

  25. #124

    User Info Menu

    I was testing out my new Shure MV 51 iOS microphone and decided to use F6 and G diminished for this Beatles melody “ you’ve got to hide your love away“


  26. #125

    User Info Menu

    Rob, you may have already gone through this process but I found it useful to treat diminished chords as a 4-way interchange for major 6th chords (and their relative minor chords) placed a min 3rd from each other. Once you're comfortable with these, try playing all the minor 6th chords in the same fashion.

    Here they are in the most common drop 2 & 3 voicings from the 4th, 5th and 6th strings covering all the keys:

    Starting Barry Harris Studies-m6dim3-jpgStarting Barry Harris Studies-m6dim2-jpgStarting Barry Harris Studies-m6dim1-jpg