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  1. #91
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  2. #92
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    To answer the II-V-I somewhat theoretically, my personal take on it is this is a movement from a less stable position to a more stable position in the key.

    So, in terms of the Barry Harris language, we obviously have this thing encoded into the scales. Do7 = unstable C6 = stable.

    In fact, we have it with any diatonic scale, but in the BH 8-note scales it's more symmetric - 4 notes on the home chord, 4 notes in the dim7 chord.

    When creating movement using these scales, it's really up to you to create that movement, and one obvious way of doing it is to use the dim7 and then the I chord. So for C major

    Do7 --> C6

    If we add in the Dm7 chord, we have an interesting thing, because it's a mix of C6 and Do7 notes
    D F A C
    D F - Do7
    A C - C6

    So, by combining diminished and 6th chord notes we have a potential wide variety of movements. If we start with a Dm7, F6, Fmaj7 or some other type of subdominant chord as the first chord and changing one or two of the chords notes within the scale, we can easily generate movements like this:

    Dm7 Do7 C6
    Fmaj7 Fm(maj7) C6
    Fmaj7 Fm7b5(maj7) C6
    Fmaj7/A G13/Ab C6
    Dm7b5 G7b9 C6
    Dm9b5 G13b9 C6 (Notice the Dm9b5 - a Bill Evans chord, is present in this system.)
    Even
    Bm7b5 E7b9 Am7 (or even Am(maj7)!)

    And so on and so forth... This might look a bit horrendous, but all of these progressions, in context have the same role as a II-V-I. In practice the name of the second chord is often difficult to write down in chord symbols, and you wouldn't necessarily be thinking of it in those terms. As a side point, in mainstream CST, a lot of these chords would be thought to have different chord/scale implications. Here, they are all parented by the same scale.

    Furthermore, you aren't necessarily limited to following the same pattern of dominant-tonic as the vanilla changes. You can resolve as and when you like.

    They start on a static, but non-tonic chord and resolve to tonic via some interesting voice leading (A-Ab-G or G-G#-A being important). The extra note, Ab/G# serves to allow a lot of voice leading and unites a lot of seemingly different progressions under one umbrella

    This might seem a bit waffly, so I'll try and post some examples of it eventually. The chord progression above are an example of things that are horrible to write down, but very logical on the neck, because it's all tight voice leading.

    From a brass tacks point of view, the whole A of WITCL can be boiled down to two scales:

    Gm7b5 C7(b9) Fm6 --> Fm6 - dim
    Dm7b5 G7(b9) C6 --> C6 -dim

    So a good exercise might be to run each scale up and down for 4 bars.

    Bridge

    Cm7 F7 Bb --> Bb6 - dim
    Ab7 G7 --> we can actually treat as Dm7b5 G7 (see Roni BH's videos), therefore C6 -dim, or Cm6 - dim. G7b5 - dim is a also a good shout. Or take each dominant chord in isolation. Choice is yours.

    Hope that makes some sense....
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-12-2018 at 02:40 PM.

  3. #93
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  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    Dm7 Do7 C6
    Fmaj7 Fm(maj7) C6
    Fmaj7 Fm7b5(maj7) C6
    Fmaj7/A G13/Ab C6
    Dm7b5 G7b9 C6
    Dm9b5 G13b9 C6 (Notice the Dm9b5 - a Bill Evans chord, is present in this system.)
    Even
    Bm7b5 E7b9 Am7 (or even Am(maj7)!)

    And so on and so forth... This might look a bit horrendous, but all of these progressions, in context have the same role as a II-V-I.
    YES!!!

    This is so important...people get so hung up with "what's on the chart." But it's very possible for both the soloist--and the accompanyist--to NOT "play what's on the chart," to get at any of these ideas--they're still performing the same function. Jazz is a music of movements, phrases, functionalities.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
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  5. #95
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    Thanks, Christian, for both the written post and the video. It will take me a while to completely wrap my head around all this, but I get the drift. Basically there is a Home and various Aways. Some of the Aways are smoothly connected, others more obliquely. But they're all heading home eventually.

    Okay, I've got a lot of stuff. I've also got a lot of practice and thinking to do. "I may be gone some time!"

  6. #96
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    In one of the talks I get to hang out in with the old Jazz cats one of the things said recent that I think relates to threads like this. As mentioned in the past the old Jazz masters were known for not directly answering questions about theory, they would just play something as their answer. Two reasons first ears was everything to them you had to be able to hear the sounds and understand things by sound. The second and what relates to this thread is they didn't talk theory because they didn't know what background others had, what terms or labels people used. By communicating in sound then each person could look at the idea from whatever system or lack of system for self taught players that made sense to them. So the eliminated the bickering in my system calls it this, well I play with whoever and we called it that, or Wes Montgomery "it's just a sound".

    This really empathises you have to hear it first, know the sound, before labeling it. And if two people playing together both understand the sound, what's it matter if the call it by different names.

    Okay coffee time.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    In one of the talks I get to hang out in with the old Jazz cats one of the things said recent that I think relates to threads like this. As mentioned in the past the old Jazz masters were known for not directly answering questions about theory, they would just play something as their answer. Two reasons first ears was everything to them you had to be able to hear the sounds and understand things by sound. The second and what relates to this thread is they didn't talk theory because they didn't know what background others had, what terms or labels people used. By communicating in sound then each person could look at the idea from whatever system or lack of system for self taught players that made sense to them. So the eliminated the bickering in my system calls it this, well I play with whoever and we called it that, or Wes Montgomery "it's just a sound".

    This really empathises you have to hear it first, know the sound, before labeling it. And if two people playing together both understand the sound, what's it matter if the call it by different names.

    Okay coffee time.
    It's been remarked on that the highest level (Herbie Hancock) of this harmony masterclass is basically the two musicians playing chords at each other.


  8. #98
    Well, that video will be the coolest 15 minutes of my day.

    I'm also pretty proud of myself in that I actually understood quite a bit of what he and Herbie were talking about...and then their playing...dang, well, I didn't say ALL of it
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Of what use is a dream, if not a blueprint for courageous action?"

    --Adam West, as Batman, 1966.

  9. #99
    As a side point, in mainstream CST, a lot of these chords would be thought to have different chord/scale implications. Here, they are all parented by the same scale.
    I did one of my many short lived threads awhile back that died a quick death, like that tree falling in a far off forest,
    did it ever really happen? Anyway, I mentioned this as one of the limitations of viewing harmony from a chord scale
    perspective.

    Ex. addressing rapid succession of dominants, each derived from multiple scale collections.

    I was surprised to discover how significantly the harmonic content expands by adding just one more note to a seven note scale.
    Not a Barry Harris mindset, but ma6 diminished can also be understood as a hybrid of C major + C harmonic major +
    A harmonic minor. This means it possesses every chord found in those three scales plus even a few more.
    Ultimately, even an 8 note scale will fall short of offering total one stop shopping but is a positive path to streamline some stuff.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    I did one of my many short lived threads awhile back that died a quick death, like that tree falling in a far off forest,
    did it ever really happen? Anyway, I mentioned this as one of the limitations of viewing harmony from a chord scale
    perspective.

    Ex. addressing rapid succession of dominants, each derived from multiple scale collections.

    I was surprised to discover how significantly the harmonic content expands by adding just one more note to a seven note scale.
    Not a Barry Harris mindset, but ma6 diminished can also be understood as a hybrid of C major + C harmonic major +
    A harmonic minor. This means it possesses every chord found in those three scales plus even a few more.
    Ultimately, even an 8 note scale will fall short of offering total one stop shopping but is a positive path to streamline some stuff.
    Very true. I'm sorry I didn't see your thread.

  11. #101
    It's been a long time since I've worked on Barry's 6th diminished stuff, and I've never studied it via books/dvds, only Barry's classes in NYC in the early 00s, and even then only in passing, since I went to the horn classes. My understanding of it is very fragmented and rusty, so maybe if I summarize the way I thought about it, y'all will tell me where I'm missing stuff.

    - if you play any 6th chord voicing, and take it up a scale but include the diminished and natural 6th, you'll get a sound that ping pongs between diminished and whatever voicing you selected. C G A E -> D Ab B F -> E A C G -> ....

    - for ii chords, use the major scale harmonized this way starting on the IV: So for a Cm7 sound, use an Eb6 voicing.

    - for V chords, several options including melodic minor off the V: So for C7, you can use a Gm scale. Also could use Dbm but I'm reasonably certain Barry wouldn't have said this.

    - For m7b5 chords, can use the melodic minor as if your chord is the vi: So for Em7b5, you could again use Gm

    - there are of course a variety of other ways to negotiate harmony, but basically, the rule of thumb is to find a 6th voicing (can include 2 as well) that expresses the harmonic function of what you're after.

    As I said, very incomplete, quite possibly some of this is wrong or not directly from Barry, but the above stuff has gotten me a surprising amount of mileage. With all this said, what am I missing and/or what do y'all recommend if I wanted to return to studying this stuff?

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald View Post

    - for V chords, several options including melodic minor off the V: So for C7, you can use a Gm scale. Also could use Dbm but I'm reasonably certain Barry wouldn't have said this.
    Barry says you can use Gm6dim for C7 (the minor sixth on the fifth of the dominant) and Dbm6dim (the "tritone's minor") for C7alt (resolving); and also that members of a family of dominants (all derived from the same diminished chord) can be used both in place of one another and in various combinations employing the extra note rules, pivoting and other devices to build lines.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald View Post
    - there are of course a variety of other ways to negotiate harmony, but basically, the rule of thumb is to find a 6th voicing (can include 2 as well) that expresses the harmonic function of what you're after.
    An important instance of this is that "the sixth on the fifth" of a Maj6 chord is an alternate voicing for that Maj: so C6 and G6 both express CMaj. The significance of this harmonically is that the two chords (and their 6dim scales) have different diminishes (B for C6 and A for G6) which opens up a wide range of movements and approaches (as well as the movements between voicings of C6 and G6 through the "other diminished" i.e. Bb).

  14. #104
    pcsanwald,

    No slight on any of the excellent materials now available, but for NYC people with interest, the low priced Tuesday classes
    are still happening when he's in town. Who knows how much longer he can keep this up.
    There would be no books or DVD's if these folks didn't log many hours hanging with Barry directly.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz View Post
    An important instance of this is that "the sixth on the fifth" of a Maj6 chord is an alternate voicing for that Maj: so C6 and G6 both express CMaj. The significance of this harmonically is that the two chords (and their 6dim scales) have different diminishes (B for C6 and A for G6) which opens up a wide range of movements and approaches (as well as the movements between voicings of C6 and G6 through the "other diminished" i.e. Bb).
    Nice! This is not something I have explored... So

    C E G A --> C6
    G B D E --> G6

    G 6-dim scale gives these diminishes:

    F#o7 Ao7 Co7 Ebo7

    Which in the key of C, is the second most common set of dim7's you'll find in C major harmony. For instance:

    C6/E Ebo7 Dm7 G7 (the bIII diminished)* and
    F6 F#o7 C6/G (or G6!)

    (What are sometimes called 'the common tone diminished 7th chords' or 'non-leading tone diminished 7th chords' in straight music theory.)

    I was wondering how these common movements are handled in Barry's 6-dim system. Thanks for pointing it out.

    * Barry makes a point of how C6 F6 (Dm7) is linked with a Ebo7 chord
    C E G A
    C Eb Gb A
    C D F A

  16. #106
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    Hey Rob, do you have enough options yet? Lol....

  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz View Post
    An important instance of this is that "the sixth on the fifth" of a Maj6 chord is an alternate voicing for that Maj: so C6 and G6 both express CMaj. The significance of this harmonically is that the two chords (and their 6dim scales) have different diminishes (B for C6 and A for G6) which opens up a wide range of movements and approaches (as well as the movements between voicings of C6 and G6 through the "other diminished" i.e. Bb).
    This is why I mentioned above somewhere that you should always practice 6th chords in tandem a perfect 4th apart G6 and C6 ( eg, C6 to C° to G6)

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz View Post
    Barry says you can use Gm6dim for C7 (the minor sixth on the fifth of the dominant) and Dbm6dim (the "tritone's minor") for C7alt (resolving); and also that members of a family of dominants (all derived from the same diminished chord) can be used both in place of one another and in various combinations employing the extra note rules, pivoting and other devices to build lines.

    When you say use D-flat six for C7 ALT, that squares with number two in my Cheat sheet.

    bvi-6 = V7b9#5 (rootless). Db is the bvi6 of F.

    I just reference everything against the I or i. For me it’s much easier that way, and it reinforces the fundamental point of tonal music for me: everything moves back and resolves .

    Or it’s just another way that Julian Lage expressed the Maxim “blah blah blah blah blah blah one “

  19. #109
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    Main chordal relationships (as I see them)

    dom7 ---> up a fifth ---> m6 (so C7 ---> Gm6) Important minor (if I've used the right term?)
    dom7alt ----> up a semitone ----> m6 (C7alt ---> Gm6) Tritone's minor
    major6--->up a fifth ---> major6 The fifth's sixth
    minor7 = major 6 up a minor third (Dm7 = F6)
    minor7b5 = minor 6 up a minor third (Bm7b5 = Dm6)

    So you can get through everything with just major and minor-6 dim scales, which might simplify learning objectives short term....

    Also, keep the scale stuff simple, and you can build in more complexity later.

  20. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Main chordal relationships (as I see them)

    dom7 ---> up a fifth ---> m6 (so C7 ---> Gm6) Important minor (if I've used the right term?)
    dom7alt ----> up a semitone ----> m6 (C7alt ---> Gm6) Tritone's minor
    major6--->up a fifth ---> major6 The fifth's sixth
    minor7 = major 6 up a minor third (Dm7 = F6)
    minor7b5 = minor 6 up a minor third (Bm7b5 = Dm6)

    So you can get through everything with just major and minor-6 dim scales, which might simplify learning objectives short term....

    Also, keep the scale stuff simple, and you can build in more complexity later.
    And don't neglect the dominants: m7b5 on the third, important minor on the fifth

    And keep in mind how dominant and m6 chords are derived from the diminished

  21. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz View Post
    And don't neglect the dominants: m7b5 on the third, important minor on the fifth

    And keep in mind how dominant and m6 chords are derived from the diminished
    Sure, but it's good to prioritise learning objectives. With 6 and m6-dim drop2's learned, you can run a whole tune in drop2's

    That's a really good milestone, and low hanging fruit for Rob, when he's got the scales together.

    After that the dom7 (and the dom7b5 - no-one ever remembers that one including me!) can be learned and applied. Or the brothers&sisters, contrary motion, borrowed notes, drop3's, split voicings.... *starts to mist over*

    The DVD's have a clear road map of course, but there so much info. I don't know about anyone else, but I have to set a realistic goal or I just get overwhelmed or pulled too many ways. Obviously, it's far better to really learn one thing than half learn five.

    What happens on JGO is there is so much knowledge and it all gets posted at once, and it's TERRIFYING. I mean, the info on this thread alone could take me a lifetime to fully apply (but then I am quite stupid & slow.)

  22. #112
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  23. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Sure, but it's good to prioritise learning objectives.

    What happens on JGO is there is so much knowledge and it all gets posted at once, and it's TERRIFYING. I mean, the info on this thread alone could take me a lifetime to fully apply (but then I am quite stupid & slow.)
    I think some people here have a propensity of buying 1 million books and videos and looking at them once or whatever and dabbling in this and that and saying “wow I didn’t really get much out of that”. And then moving onto the next thing. And saying, “wow I didn’t really get much out of that“.

    I was afraid I would be falling in that rabbit hole, so I decided to do three things: learn tunes, focus on Barry Harris, focus on Mike Longo . Which is really two things: focus on tunes, focus on rhythm.

    I’m just a schmo who works a lot and comes home and practices and plays, with a few gigs a year. But mainly for my own benefit. I’ve been working with the stuff for a year now and it’s still not even close to being where it should be. But that’s OK, you just got to keep at it and keep at it and keep at it. It takes a long time to internalize the stuff .

    Barry gives you a framework, a reference point for playing that works and is grounded on the most important aspects of music focused on the important things. For someone like me who never went to school for music, it’s been really good.

    My main project for this year is to have about 25 Beatles songs together that I know them inside and out without thinking. The major minor six diminished system works really well with Beatles melodies.

  24. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    Er...what was all that?
    Starting Barry Harris Studies-download-jpg

    It'll be fine - just the maj6 and min6 scales in chords.... It'll all be OK, I promise :-)

  25. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    Er...what was all that?
    yeah don’t get frightened! See my post no. 42 - to start with you can cover all the main stuff just with the maj6 and min6 voicings. In fact that’s still what I mostly use.

  26. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    My main project for this year is to have about 25 Beatles songs together that I know them inside and out without thinking. The major minor six diminished system works really well with Beatles melodies.
    Hmmmm.... that sounds like fun... Which songs in particular have you been looking at?

  27. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Hmmmm.... that sounds like fun... Which songs in particular have you been looking at?

    Beatles tunes (N=25)


    Norwegian Wood
    Nowhere Man
    Michelle
    Yesterday
    Tomorrow Never Knows
    Fool on the hill
    Across the Universe
    Strawberry Fields
    In my Life
    Give Peace a chance
    Here Comes the Sun
    While my Guitar Gently Weeps
    Hey Jude
    Happy XMas War is Over
    Blackbird
    Julia
    If I needed someone
    You've got to hide your love away
    And I love her
    Here there and everywhere
    Eleanor Rigby
    Dear Prudence
    For you Blue
    I'll Follow the Sun
    Hello goodbye


    easy to harmonize for example “you’ve got to hide your love away” with F6 and G°.

  28. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post

    I was afraid I would be falling in that rabbit hole, so I decided to do three things: learn tunes, focus on Barry Harris, focus on Mike Longo . Which is really two things: focus on tunes, focus on rhythm.
    Ha! What a cool coincidence. I too decided that Barry Harris + Mike Longo was where I wanted to focus my attention. And, even more coincidentally, I decided my next attempt at a solo arrangement using BH harmonization would be "Yesterday". Do you think Sir Paul has found some mind control technology to get everyone playing his music?

  29. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    What happens on JGO is there is so much knowledge and it all gets posted at once, and it's TERRIFYING. I mean, the info on this thread alone could take me a lifetime to fully apply (but then I am quite stupid & slow.)
    yeah, from reading the follow ups, I think my understanding pretty much squares with what y'all have said. That's exactly the rub, though, what you can summarize in a paragraph can take years to really apply and master.

    thanks to whoever clarified the altered dominant thing as being "the minor of the tritone". The reason I commented that I was reasonably certain barry wouldn't have said that was because I'm nearly positive I've never heard him use the term "altered" for anything. In my experience he's always coming at those sounds either from a diminished, augment, or relative minor perspective, and tends to explain them that way. So him saying "minor of tritone" makes perfect sense, and sounds like something he'd say.

  30. #120
    By chance I just came across this blog article by John Hall who I think posts here occasionally. It’s about creating movement on the changes of All Of Me using BH ideas. There’s a PDF at the end of the article.

    John Hall | Music for Guitar | Blog : All of Me - Filling Harmonic Space

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