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Brothers and sisters was a very foreign thing to grasp initially.
Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
It's as indispensible as family now.
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01-07-2018 09:55 PM
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Yes the book gives you the tools, but you have to really get down to it and do some ‘heavy lifting’ and force the stuff onto some tunes. Otherwise it won’t really take root. At least that was my experience. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Excellent ! I echo Rob's sentiment. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Thanks! I think I’m going to write out the chord voicings I used here so I can remember them. (I tried to play this again last night and I could only get about 75% of it right!) Originally Posted by va3ux
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Haha. That sounds familiar!
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Keep us posted Rob
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Great stuff Graham, as always.
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Thanks! Originally Posted by christianm77
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I think that not only do you have to know your sixth chords, you have to know all the sixth chords a perfect fourth away automatically and pair them.
C6-F6
F6-Bb6
Bb6-Eb6
These kind of movements have to be fully internalized
etc
The two and the four perform the same sub dominant function.
Moving 2 notes of a F6 gets you to the diminished that leads you to the C6.
Moving 1 note from a F-6 gets you to the diminished that leads you to the C-6.
These kind of movements have to be fully internalized and practiced 1000,000 times. I’m still practicing them. It’s not automatic for me even now . Repetition of the correct information is so vital.
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I've got all that to come, but just now I'm still just getting the initial Drop 2 and 3 shapes under my fingers, trying them in a few keys. That's enough of a head scratcher for the moment. But I do realise the value of them is in the movements to other chords, as you say, NSJ.
I'm also running up and down the "scale rules" of Roni Ben-Hur, trying them through the cycle. If nothing else, my plectrum technique is feeling a little more secure.
So, I'm just laying down the groundwork for the moment, and that's enough. But I'll cast an eye forward every now and then, see what's ahead.
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No worries understood. Just thinking aloud how I’ve proceeseed this stuff.
i try not to think of ii-Vs, even in comping.
So instead of Dm7b5-G7 alt - C-6
its F-6-F°-C-6
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So, Fm6 for Dm7b5? I can see that, it's just an inversion. But that "allows" you to play any of the Fm6/diminished chord runs over the ii chord?
I can also see Fdim for G7 - it's just G7b9 in another guise.
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If you were to do that Graham, with commentary on why you chose those particular voicings and what "standard" voicings they replaced, it would be one of the most detailed explanations of the application of the method to 'reharmonising' a standard on the guitar (afaik). A lot of work involved I'm sure! Originally Posted by grahambop
Alan Kingstone's book does an excellent and comprehensive job of describing the method for guitar, and does show an example of applying it to Like Someone in Love. More of the same (ie the application of the method to standards) would definitely be a course I would sign up for.
A great performance.
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I'd like that too, but it's a big ask for Graham. But there's a book there for somebody. Doesn't Roni Ben-Hur cover it in his Chordabilty DVD? I see that he now has that same material over two videos with Mike's Masterclasses.
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Don't worry guys, I'm already on it! I've written out the whole 'verse/intro' section, now I've just got to do the main chorus.
In fact it is a sort of mash-up of some chords I already knew and some BH stuff.
Anyway hope to have it done in a few days or so, will post it here.
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While you're waiting for that, here's a thing I posted before on another thread which shows some BH chords applied to My Romance, which someone asked about in that thread.
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Hi Rob, yes you've got it. And the same goes for any of the 6/dim 'chord scales' where they can substitute for the original chord. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
e.g.
C maj = C6/dim
C min = Eb6/dim (or Cm6/dim)
C7 = Gm6/dim
C7 alt = Dbm6/dim
Cm7b5 = Ebm6/dim
Another cool thing I discovered was if you take the voicings shown for the bottom 4 strings and omit the 5th string, you have got all the 'Freddie Green' chord movements you will ever need right there.
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There is a clip of RB-H running up the harmonised m6 diminished scale as part of an intro to a standard (I forget which one). He says it's a useful device for creating movement over a static chord (I seem to remember studying a different approach to the same 'problem' in the Mickey Baker book many moons ago). But the Barry Harris method is much more than that; it's a codification of bop-era jazz. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
The great thing about Barry Harris's classes is that he illustrates the ideas by applying them in standards, so they're not just abstract theory floating around in never never land.
It would be good to see the same approach taken specifically for guitar.
By the way, one of things I enjoyed about Graham's performance is that he didn't do anything as obvious as running up the harmonised 6 diminished scale (unless my ears are deceiving me, which is perfectly possible).
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This is what I've been doing on gigs for a few years. It's really handy. Originally Posted by grahambop
It's very good for running them into basslines, too. This is something I've got a lot of mileage out of past couple of years. Walking chords.... In combination with 'Monk' moves, it's very useful for accompaniment.
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Actually I can hear quite a few instances of the basic maj-6 dim drop 2 harmonisation of the scale being used in Graham's arrangement. But it's done musically....
The initial figure of Graham's arrangement appears to be that played in thirds (obviously that's what the verse melody is) - which is where this device is most useful, on running melody lines ala Wes, George Shearing etc.
TBH I think the basic drop 2 harmony sounds great in thirds.
He appears to play these ideas again, but crucially they are broken up with other devices including - I think - some borrowed note chords and inner voice leading that are used compositionally to make the arrangement sound less predictable. A few times it's just 4-5 chords from the scale, and then another idea. A few other times Graham uses single notes instead, which adds textural variety.
From the point of view of an exercise it would make sense to do the whole tune in parallel BH drop-2's - but of course it would hardly sound like music.
Does that sound right Graham? Sorry to be all analytical and not just enjoy your playing as music...
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I would add from a technical perspective, I've found running those 6-dim harmonised scales across the neck in position makes a great exercise for the fretting hand.
TBH, this is a very demanding style for the guitar in a lot of ways ... One of things that makes Pasquale so amazing, of course.
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Christian I think you nailed it totally, have a gold star!
Yes all I really did was harmonise the tune in whichever way appealed to me the most, not any particular way really. So exactly what Christian described. There's a big chunk of 'pure' BH chords on the first descending phrase of the main 'chorus' melody, I know that. And lots of diminished chords sprinkled in, they are great when you need a dominant in a hurry.
As for single notes, when it's too hard to play a chord, I play a single note, it sort of works! (well sometimes it's an 'aesthetic decision' but not always!) I don't like doing it entirely in chords, I find some single notes make it 'sing' a bit more.
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Across the neck? I'm going the length of the neck. Could you be more specific, Christian?
Graham - I also noticed those so-called Freddie Green chords, when I was learning the Gm6 on the lowest four strings. I thought, "This would be a lot easier if I omitted the fifth string", and when I did that I realised I already played such sequences. But I'm being a good boy, and practising them with the 5th string back in use.
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Sure, it wouldn't really be possible to do a tune using this method without 6th voicings and diminisheds would it?
But, unless my ears were dodgy, or my memory is, both of which are possible, Gbop doesn't actually run up a harmonised 6 diminished scale, which to me sounds just like a scale exercise, even when Pasquale or Roni B-H do it in the middle of a tune (presumably for pedagogical purposes).
Rather he (Gbop) uses fragments of it, which indicates to me that he has really achieved a level of mastery that I would like insights into :-)
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Just had a chance to look at my notes and try this for a few minutes. Very cool. Originally Posted by christianm77
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