The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi, this may not be a very irrelevant thread for these forums, but I'm writing an essay for college on Bebop and to what extent it was (or wasn't) a reaction against white appropriation of jazz during the Swing Era, focusing on Charlie Christian, Dizzy Gillespie and Max Roach in particular. I've been struggling a lot finding any good resources, articles or interviews relating to this topic, could anyone point me in the right direction?
    Any help is greatly appreciated, thank you,
    Colin

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  3. #2

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    I have read little snippets about this here and there over the years. I am pretty sure that Thelonius Monk was attributed to have said they made the music hard so that "others" could not play it. I believe it was mentioned in a DVD I have that was a documentary of Monk. Of course this was not the point of the DVD but I remember having a chuckle when I heard it. (He was an interesting personality)

    Finding Monk's quote might be a good starting point in a Google search.

  4. #3

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    The Jazz Institute (I think it's called) at Rutgers University has a lot of historical information. Dan Morganstern is knowledgeable. Some of this might be available on line.

    Also Gary Giddins is a writer/journalist on jazz.

    Check out Miles Davis' autobiography. There is some discussion of this.

    Gunther Schuller has written 3 big books on jazz from early beginnings, the Swing Era, and then Modern Era (bebop and forward). The latter 2 books have discussions of this.

    PS: Actually Schuller's Swing Era book gives an extended discussion of swing style, and the major black and white bands, and swing era soloists. This is the backdrop against which bop developed. You need to have a sense of who the major players (individual and bands) were, how music was marketed, and available, and what was popular coming from the Swing Era and earlier 1920's stuff, to understand why bop developed.
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 02-26-2017 at 12:53 PM.

  5. #4

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    Ira Gitler's book 'Swing to Bop' would be useful. It's basically interviews with nearly everybody who was there.

  6. #5

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    The Wikipedia entry on bebop is one of the better Wiki pages I have seen recently and has some good references.

    Bebop - Wikipedia

    FWIW, I personally don't see much of a conscious attempt on the part of bebop pioneers to make a racially oriented statement. Most prominent early players were black, because bebop arose out of the black big bands and the clubs they played in. Of course I'm not naive enough to think that anything involving popular music culture does not have a racial component to it.

    The movie Bird makes an oblique reference to this, with Bird's invitation of Red Rodney into his band causing some controversy.

    Hard bop on the other hand was more self-conscious. The players there wanted to bring more gospel and "soul" into jazz playing, specifically to make something that would emphasize black culture as distinct from beatnik music (e.g., West Coast jazz).

  7. #6

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    Nat Hentoff is another resource: I read his book The Jazz Life some time ago, which is probably his best-known work. He has quite a few books on jazz focusing on the artists of the bebop era.

    The Jazz Life (A Da Capo paperback): Nat Hentoff: 9780306800887: Amazon.com: Books

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77

    Gunther Schuller has written 3 big books on jazz from early beginnings, the Swing Era, and then Modern Era (bebop and forward). The latter 2 books have discussions of this.
    I think Schuller planned to write 3 volumes, but only finished two: Early Jazz and The Swing Era.

  9. #8

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    Maybe you're right. I just finished The Swing Era, and took him at his word, when he makes frequent references to the latter work.

    (I can understand him not finishing it. In The Swing Era, he said he listened to 30,000 cuts, I believe. Massive amount of work.)

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by TM25
    Hi, this may not be a very irrelevant thread for these forums, but I'm writing an essay for college on Bebop and to what extent it was (or wasn't) a reaction against white appropriation of jazz during the Swing Era, focusing on Charlie Christian, Dizzy Gillespie and Max Roach in particular. I've been struggling a lot finding any good resources, articles or interviews relating to this topic, could anyone point me in the right direction?
    Any help is greatly appreciated, thank you,
    Colin
    You really need to check out the accounts of some people who were actually there.

    Most of the received wisdom about this era is a simplification.

  11. #10

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    I would recommend picking through the appalling mindrot that is late 1940s Downbeat for the interviews with the pioneers of the music. I think there is a collection of articles you can download.

    Reading the music press of the time, I can see why Artie Shaw decided to stop. Imagine celebrity culture applied to jazz.

    Also Barry Harris some interesting things to say about the advent of the Bop era ... He's a little too young to have been there at the hand over, but his recollections make for interesting listening, and runs counters to the often repeated Ken Burns Jazz narrative of the period.

    PRX

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You really need to check out the accounts of some people who were actually there.

    Most of the received wisdom about this era is a simplification
    .
    Although, you have to remember that participant's accounts may themselves be biased, or unreliable.

    Schuller in his Swing Era book has an interesting e.g. about Don Redman, an arranger in the 20's and 30's. Acc'd to Don Redman, a fellow arranger, John Nesbitt, "was copying everyone else's records", and this was repeated by Redman in an interview in Jazz Review (1959). Schuller repeated this statement in his earlier book, and goes to some pains in his later book, to show that Redman's statement was not only wrong, but that it was Redman "who was embarrassingly plagiaristic...and particularly obsessed with Johnny Green's Coquette, and Donaldson's My Blue Heaven...Schuller's later book concludes that "Nesbitt was consistently inventive" and "it was Redman who was alarmingly derivative."

    The Louis Armstrong bio I just read had an unintentionally hilarious bit about Bunk Johnson, an old time trumpet player who a British jazz writer tracked down, on a remote farm somewhere in La. during the 1940's. Evidently, someone had told him that Johnson was Louis A.'s chief influence and trumpet mentor, growing up. Bunk had stopped playing for some time, and was living alone, with no teeth (which made trumpet playing difficult). A set of teeth was provided, along with a suit of clothes, and Bunk Johnson was trotted out to play for adoring audiences in the East. It became apparent that Bunk's "memories" were a little suspect... to say the least.

    Bottom line: personal accounts, and interviews might be valuable, but can't be taken at face value, and should be subject to normal types of historical fact-checking and verification.
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 02-26-2017 at 08:28 PM.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77
    Although, you have to remember that participant's accounts may themselves be biased, or unreliable.
    Indeed, that's why it's history... Nothing is neat...

  14. #13

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    OK ....here's a reading list for you:

    "To Be, Or Not To Bop" ......Dizzy Gillespie .....the real thang.....from the man himself!
    [Highly recommended]

    "Bebop: The Music and Its Players"......Thomas Owens.
    Good read.

    "The Birth of Bebop: A Social and Musical History" .....Scott DeVeaux
    Bit academic but still worthwhile.

    "Swing To Bop: An Oral History of the Transition in Jazz in the 1940's" .....Ira Gitler
    Has value because the author is talking with the players of that era.

    I read all of these when doing some teaching at a Jazz School .....the library was an amazing resource ....a better
    incentive than the modest income to do the work I was paid for.....and that's not mentioning the crappy academic politics.

    Anyway......re the books I listed above....the Diz book is a must .....the others fill in the bigger picture.
    All are available on Amazon [I checked]

    You may get lucky and find some titles at your local library.

    I wish you good reading.

  15. #14

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    WWII, the musician's union strike/recording ban in 1942-44 and 1948 had a huge impact on musician's employment and the climate that helped incubate bebop.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonray
    OK ....here's a reading list for you:

    "To Be, Or Not To Bop" ......Dizzy Gillespie .....the real thang.....from the man himself!
    [Highly recommended]

    "Bebop: The Music and Its Players"......Thomas Owens.
    Good read.

    "The Birth of Bebop: A Social and Musical History" .....Scott DeVeaux
    Bit academic but still worthwhile.

    "Swing To Bop: An Oral History of the Transition in Jazz in the 1940's" .....Ira Gitler
    Has value because the author is talking with the players of that era.

    I read all of these when doing some teaching at a Jazz School .....the library was an amazing resource ....a better
    incentive than the modest income to do the work I was paid for.....and that's not mentioning the crappy academic politics.

    Anyway......re the books I listed above....the Diz book is a must .....the others fill in the bigger picture.
    All are available on Amazon [I checked]

    You may get lucky and find some titles at your local library.

    I wish you good reading.
    I'm going to have to read those myself!

  17. #16

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    Another couple of books for your research list:

    'Thelonious Monk: The Life and Times of an American Original' by Robin Kelley (THE book on Monk)

    'The Amazing Bud Powell: Black Genius, Jazz History, and the Challenge of Bebop' by Guthrie Ramsey

    'The Masters of Bebop: A Listener's Guide' by Ira Gitler

  18. #17

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    Incidentally, the Ira Gitler book (Swing to Bop) has quite a few descriptions of Charlie Christian by various interviewees. Sounds like he was highly thought of, i.e. not only by fellow guitarists.

    As I recall it also has a long section by Barney Kessel about his experiences hanging out with CC which is interesting.

    Overall a fascinating book, it's all seen from the musicians' viewpoints. It has an exhaustive index (at least my copy does), so you can quickly find any references to, or interviews by, any musician (there are loads of people in there).
    Last edited by grahambop; 02-27-2017 at 08:56 AM.

  19. #18

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    I also feel like 'bebop' had a different meaning at the time. Nowadays we apply it to the musical style of Charlie Parker, Dizzy, Bud and the second generation guys. But it looks to me like it used to more a blanket term for those doing interesting stuff with the materials of swing, generally in small bands.

    That included obviously people like Monk and Charlie Christian, but also could include some contemporary swing based musicians Tiny Grimes, Slim & Slam, Tatum and so on... The boundaries of the style were quite porous, and bop influenced a lot of swing music too. Plus a lot of the seminal early Bird/Diz cuts were made with rhythm sections that were essentially couched in swing....

    The Coleman Hawkins stuff of the period makes interesting listening as a 'halfway house'

  20. #19

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    While Max Roach is unquestionably a major figure in any discussion of bebop, the bebop drumming discourse begins
    with Kenny Clarke. The shift from keeping time on the bass drum to the cymbal facilitated a new overall rhythm section
    concept. This was an important defining feature of the style as well as for many future jazz evolutions that followed.
    Last edited by bako; 02-27-2017 at 09:49 AM.

  21. #20

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    Be careful, folks. We shouldn't be doing this kid's research for him, in effect, by providing him with all the stuff he's supposed to be finding out on his own.

  22. #21

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    Don't forget that the OP is looking a this topic through the prism of race, so any references given should glean information from this angle. He distinctly mentioned "white appropriation" in his post.

    With race, religion, and economics being such volatile topics, I would wonder if there are many sources out there that adequately and accurately tackle the influence of race and racism in the Bebop era.

  23. #22

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    Schuller talks a lot about this in his book. Major theme, and in fact the book is organized in that manner. He has big chapters on "The Great Black Bands" and the "Great White Bands", and "Territory Bands". Also, chapters on Ellington, Louis A. and his skeptically titled chapter "The 'King' of Swing--Benny Goodman", "The Quintessence of Swing" and separate chapters on great soloists.

    The discussion of black bands is more extensive, and together with the Territory bands discussion (almost all of them black), is almost twice as long as the discussion of white bands, which is appropriate, since he basically says the Dorseys never swung (very well), and Goodman's band would have been defunct without Fletcher Henderson's arrangements. (They were literally about to stop playing/touring, when they pulled them out of their suitcases.)

    At the same time, he points out that there was a lot of back and forth, musically, and notes some peculiarities, as in a number of black musicians who LOVED the sound of Guy Lombardo's band.
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 02-27-2017 at 12:21 PM.

  24. #23

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    An interview with Guthrie Ramsey, the author of the Bud Powell book I mention at post 16 above.


  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Don't forget that the OP is looking a this topic through the prism of race, so any references given should glean information from this angle. He distinctly mentioned "white appropriation" in his post.

    With race, religion, and economics being such volatile topics, I would wonder if there are many sources out there that adequately and accurately tackle the influence of race and racism in the Bebop era.
    The Dizzy Gillespie biography has quite a lot of his reflections on this aspect as I recall.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonray
    OK ....here's a reading list for you:

    ...
    "The Birth of Bebop: A Social and Musical History" .....Scott DeVeaux
    Bit academic but still worthwhile.
    ...
    I highly recommend the DeVeaux book. As the title indicates, the author is sophisticated about both music and social issues. It's one of the best music history books I've read.

    To the OP, I think this will drill down into the race/social issues you are focusing on.

    Another (famous) book on that angle is Blues People by Leroi Jones. Be careful though--it is more of a polemic than a history book. Well worth reading.

    Finally, also worthwhile on race and jazz is Notes and Tones by Arthur Taylor. Taylor was a black jazz musician, and interviewed lots of his fellow musicians in the 1970s. Many of the interviews touch on race.
    Last edited by dingusmingus; 02-27-2017 at 12:22 PM.