Playing behind the beat - a good lesson

[jasaco]

Here's a good lesson on hearing and playing (or singing) behind the beat, on the beat, or ahead of the beat.

[R Neil]

Here's a good lesson on hearing and playing (or singing) behind the beat, on the beat, or ahead of the beat.

I've heard many live performances in everything from blues to opera, ballet to modern dance, solo pianist to symphonies. I realized a number of years ago that frequently the real difference between a very solid, technically capable performer and an exciting performer was all about the subtleties of ... timing.

Just as she covers, the choice to hold the tempo back just ever so slightly ... then charge out in front ... pause ...return to strict by the beat ... then another pause, perhaps leaving out a few "beats" of the last note of a phrase to jump back up to time.

Some is enough away from the beat you really notice, but much of the time it's so slightly as to slip by unconsciously, but still ... felt. And it all affects what you feel as the listener.

In my classical vocal lessons, my good teacher worked me a couple years strictly by the beat on all music ... up until the last three lessons before a performance of a piece. And even then, only very subtle changes in a couple places (except for the places *everyone* pauses or accelerates and are therefore "expected") were allowed.

After I was able to consistently display dead-on timing to the beat, week after week, month after month, for a couple years, she told me the next part of my training was to begin to choose subtle alterations of selected phrases, but that I would be expected to be able to tell her *why*, of every phrase of the aria, that I decided a specific phrase needed that specific emotional change.

And that *only* emotional reasons were allowed. And they'd better be damn good ones.

A year later, the strictions on phrase timing came off, not because she necessarily expected more of them, but because by then the emotional interpretation was getting at least as much attention as the technical interpretation.

And I was learning to "place" them in such a way as to affect the emotional needs of the aria without interference with the musical performance of that aria.

I listened to hours of great performers from Montserrat Caballe and Victoria de los Angeles to Clapton and Louis Armstrong and Ella and Rosemary Clooney and Tony Bennett.

What they all had mastered was making the technically perfect sound into incredibly emotional, through the subtle to obvious use of ... phrasing.

But in all that "extra" motion they never really left The Beat, even when it required the accompanying performers to alter beat durations for the end of a piece or section.

Not all behind and ahead motion is of the same quality. But it's not definable intellectually, that's the part that has to come emotionally.

And somehow be an emotion that's "natural" and shared by the listener, if you really want to please. That's ... not easy.

Stumbling fingers still need love ...

[destinytot]

A practice that helps me these days is blending a kind of combined mental count plus (vocal) hum/drone with Bill Evans's Alone via headphones - riding both the breath and Bill Evans's implied beat (which is just my proverbial cuppa). Also, meticulous listening to Zen master João Gilberto.

[ThatRhythmMan]

I've heard many live performances in everything from blues to opera, ballet to modern dance, solo pianist to symphonies. I realized a number of years ago that frequently the real difference between a very solid, technically capable performer and an exciting performer was all about the subtleties of ... timing.

Just as she covers, the choice to hold the tempo back just ever so slightly ... then charge out in front ... pause ...return to strict by the beat ... then another pause, perhaps leaving out a few "beats" of the last note of a phrase to jump back up to time.

Some is enough away from the beat you really notice, but much of the time it's so slightly as to slip by unconsciously, but still ... felt. And it all affects what you feel as the listener.

In my classical vocal lessons, my good teacher worked me a couple years strictly by the beat on all music ... up until the last three lessons before a performance of a piece. And even then, only very subtle changes in a couple places (except for the places *everyone* pauses or accelerates and are therefore "expected") were allowed.

After I was able to consistently display dead-on timing to the beat, week after week, month after month, for a couple years, she told me the next part of my training was to begin to choose subtle alterations of selected phrases, but that I would be expected to be able to tell her *why*, of every phrase of the aria, that I decided a specific phrase needed that specific emotional change.

And that *only* emotional reasons were allowed. And they'd better be damn good ones.

A year later, the strictions on phrase timing came off, not because she necessarily expected more of them, but because by then the emotional interpretation was getting at least as much attention as the technical interpretation.

And I was learning to "place" them in such a way as to affect the emotional needs of the aria without interference with the musical performance of that aria.

I listened to hours of great performers from Montserrat Caballe and Victoria de los Angeles to Clapton and Louis Armstrong and Ella and Rosemary Clooney and Tony Bennett.

What they all had mastered was making the technically perfect sound into incredibly emotional, through the subtle to obvious use of ... phrasing.

But in all that "extra" motion they never really left The Beat, even when it required the accompanying performers to alter beat durations for the end of a piece or section.

Not all behind and ahead motion is of the same quality. But it's not definable intellectually, that's the part that has to come emotionally.

And somehow be an emotion that's "natural" and shared by the listener, if you really want to please. That's ... not easy.

Stumbling fingers still need love ...

And Billie Holiday…holy cow!!! That lady's phrasing could be downright wacky, but it sounds so good!

[destinytot]

And Billie Holiday…holy cow!!! That lady's phrasing could be downright wacky, but it sounds so good!

Billie = True North!

[Hurricane Ramon]

.

That as well as being a tad behind is where it's at to me.

Been doing the stage thing since 77 professionally , longer as as an amateur .

It's a comfy place to park it. You always stand out no matter how many are on stage .

EZ :

HR


.

[marcwhy]

Here's a good lesson on hearing and playing (or singing) behind the beat, on the beat, or ahead of the beat.

Thanks for posting; I've seen some of her other vids, and she's good.

What confused me, though, with many of her examples, is that she changed her note durations when she changed her "time" feel. For example, when she sang "behind," she used long tones, and when she sang "ahead," she used eighth notes.

Request: someone please record an example -- using the same phrase -- and play it on, behind, and ahead of the beat!

Thanks.

[oldane]

Jack Teagarden strikes me as a musician who may never ever have played one single note ON the beat.

Lester Young and Dexter Gordon was great at dragging behind the beat.

Erroll Garner played behind the beat in his right hand and more on the beat in his left (his guitar like comping himself). It was a great mastery of rhythm which I can only envy.

[whiskey02]

What confused me, though, with many of her examples, is that she changed her note durations when she changed her "time" feel. For example, when she sang "behind," she used long tones, and when she sang "ahead," she used eighth notes.

Yeah that stuck out instantly to me also.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Yep. I really hate the terminology used around all of this, in talking about playing "ahead" and "behind".

Really talking about different things. There's the thing Metheny does, where he plays every beat either on, before, or after. It's consistent thing with placement of each beat. To me that's playing "ahead" or "behind".

Everything else that's talked about, in terms of examples in all of this, and the examples in the video, are really just phrasing in my mind. You're subbing different rhythms to get a different feel.

[christianm77]

I haven't watched this video but I tend to agree with matt. I like Aimee's vids tho.

Don't get effects and causes confused.

The terms ahead and behind are rather vague. I hear this a lot, as if there is something sloppy about billie or prez. No. Their timing is exact.

Frankly people should stop playing 'behind the beat' and play exact rhythms. Behind the beat often means exact execution of a rhythm that sounds like it is behind the beat such as second triplet off beat of quarter triplet. Also the position of downbeats in swung quavers can be late as long as the upbeat is felt in the right place, but when playing individual quarters it must be on time.

Some people do this intuitively and some people don't. If you are in the latter category trying to be behind the beat won't help you. You'll just drag.

That said the perception of relaxation in the execution of rhythmic phrases can feel almost late. That's the sweet spot - hard to get on the stand. But if you do it right you will find that your phrases are actually accurately executed.

[christianm77]

Here's a good lesson on hearing and playing (or singing) behind the beat, on the beat, or ahead of the beat.

yeah she's talking about phrasing really. That's cool.

[Runepune]

I'm not sure I interpreted you guys right...but placement in relation to the pulse, I can't see why it shouldn't be called behind, on or ahead. People definitely land differently in relation to the pulse. I record and produce music, and watching those pro tools tracks in a session closely makes it pretty obvious where they're at I wouldn't mess with timing on the tracks in a jazz session, but else I nearly always do. And I nearly always drag some tracks later in time (probably because I don't do much punk music :-) Not necessarily because they're ahead of the pulse. Dead on may sound rushed in some cases.

With a seriously good internal clock, one can have fun around that pulse:

[rictroll]

IMO you should never think about this on the bandstand during a performance.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Back to the phrasing thing... I just saw another thread where someone was referring to Mike Longo and really hearing swing in terms of 12/8. That's really what I hear when I hear people doing the phrasing thing that Amy is doing ( even know she's doing it in Latin. Basically the same type of thing, moving around . ) or what people talk about Billie Holliday or Lester Young doing.

Basically, triplets are their own organizational structure. You can think of 8th note triplets as "subbing " for 8th notes ...and quarter note triplets as subbing for quarter notes etc. that's an oversimplification, but it's starting point for thinking about it.

Anyway, all things being equal, triplets rush "normal " time. As a starting point:

1. 8th note triplets rush 8th notes.
2. Quarter note triplets drag 8th notes.
3. Quarter note triplets rush quarter notes.

Great players typically do things like start behind and then sub a triplet feel to catch up. Once you get a feel for it, you have an organizational framework for playing music which is highly organized but facilitates playing virtually anything anywhere. It becomes pretty simple at that point to basically never play "on the beat". It's really not a thinking thing , but at some point you have to do the work to have internalized it .

This is what I typically hear when I hear Erroll Garner or Billie holiday. The thing is , when you sub triplets, starting the phrase "behind", the result is....

...the first note is BEHIND where it would've been, the second is exactly ON where it would've been, and the third is AHEAD.

Because it's basically all three of those things at once, it's heard as this imperceptible phrasing thing which is 100% a feel. And I guess it IS if you don't know what it is that you're hearing. But this is easily learned, especially on an instrument like the guitar.

Might be worth working up a series of études on this.

[don_oz]

dexter plays behind the beat loads

sounds great. sometimes he does it so much, it's like he's gonna flip the beat around. i feel it creates tension, rhythmic tension in such a good way.

I don't know if this is relevant, it's just any excuse to listen to some long tall Dex.

Oz

[christianm77]

dexter plays behind the beat loads

sounds great. sometimes he does it so much, it's like he's gonna flip the beat around. i feel it creates tension, rhythmic tension in such a good way.

I don't know if this is relevant, it's just any excuse to listen to some long tall Dex.

Oz

No excuse required.

That combination between straight, late and emphatically articulated is certainly the Dexter signature. I transcribed a fair bit of that solo actually. To me, it's like he's playing the history of jazz saxophone - fom the blues to Coltrane via Lester and Bird.

I would suggest Philip Catherine (who played with Dexter in the '70s and recorded with him) is one of the very few guitarists who has taken this direction in his phrasing.

[christianm77]

Back to the phrasing thing... I just saw another thread where someone was referring to Mike Longo and really hearing swing in terms of 12/8. That's really what I hear when I hear people doing the phrasing thing that Amy is doing ( even know she's doing it in Latin. Basically the same type of thing, moving around . ) or what people talk about Billie Holliday or Lester Young doing.

Basically, triplets are their own organizational structure. You can think of 8th note triplets as "subbing " for 8th notes ...and quarter note triplets as subbing for quarter notes etc. that's an oversimplification, but it's starting point for thinking about it.

Anyway, all things being equal, triplets rush "normal " time. As a starting point:

1. 8th note triplets rush 8th notes.
2. Quarter note triplets drag 8th notes.
3. Quarter note triplets rush quarter notes.

Great players typically do things like start behind and then sub a triplet feel to catch up. Once you get a feel for it, you have an organizational framework for playing music which is highly organized but facilitates playing virtually anything anywhere. It becomes pretty simple at that point to basically never play "on the beat". It's really not a thinking thing , but at some point you have to do the work to have internalized it .

This is what I typically hear when I hear Erroll Garner or Billie holiday. The thing is , when you sub triplets, starting the phrase "behind", the result is....

...the first note is BEHIND where it would've been, the second is exactly ON where it would've been, and the third is AHEAD.

Because it's basically all three of those things at once, it's heard as this imperceptible phrasing thing which is 100% a feel. And I guess it IS if you don't know what it is that you're hearing. But this is easily learned, especially on an instrument like the guitar.

Might be worth working up a series of études on this.

Ding! Video time...

[fasstrack]

Is that Cyrille Aimee?

Thought it was Maucha Adnet, who I honestly like better (Cyrille's cool, imaginative settings for the songs and a pretty good songwriter). I just think Maucha is one of the great Brasilian vocalists (how bad could you be when Jobim himself has you in his band for 10 years?, and husband Duduka an equally great drummer. It was a thrill to perform with them on Gene Bertoncini's gig back in NY.

The interesting thing about the Brasilian singers is that though the rhythm is relaxed, they tend to sing AHEAD of the beat. The master of masters, the great Elise Regina, did this regularly---and, of course----was in total command of every phrase.

Most of the guitarists from there have pretty centered beats, with the exception of Romero Lumbaba (sp?). When he plays rhythm, like on Tom Harrell's Petals Danse (from The Art of Rhythm), he's perfect. But soloing he's always ahead, IMO annoyingly so. He kind of ruins the Trio de Paz for me. I think he wants to be a jazz player, and tries a bit too hard sometimes. To be fair, I heard some solo playing by him that was outstanding...