The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Stole this idea from another thread (thanks goldenwave77). Apparently Barry Galbraith thinks high level guitar is much harder. Me, I'm not sure, but I look forward to some thoughts from the peanut gallery

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Well.. for technique I think the guitar takes the cake. My classical guitar teacher would make fun little remarks that pianists can play with their noses just to make a point. Might be helpful to compare the best of the best performance of each instrument (in terms of virtuosity) if thats possible.. and see if we can draw a conclusion from those performances. Here is the example from the guitar side:



    From the piano side.. I don't know! I'm ignorant so perhaps someone else can show THE example.

    Now in terms of getting to know the instrument I think the guitar also takes the cake (stop eating so much cake darn it!). That is unless you turn your guitar in Major Thirds then understanding the guitar would probably be easier than piano.

    Anyways in conclusion I think its safe to say that guitar players generally have it harder than pianists.

  4. #3
    Piano is nearly the easiest instrument to play, among all of them. All things being equal, I'd say almost ANYTHING is easier to play on the piano. It's designed for the human hand, and to facilitate playing polyphony easily.

    "High-level piano music" is nearly impossible on most other instruments. I guess you could say that high-level piano music is harder music, but that's because the instrument itself simply facilitates higher-level possibilities, because of its ergonomic advantage.

    I'm not a pianist , at all! But reading music from a hymnal or from piano sheet music is just a lot more straightforward with piano versus guitar. Guitarists who can reduce and read polyphonic/homophonic four-part music which pianists find basically "easy" are among the top level musicians.

    I think this is very much an apples and oranges kind of thing.

  5. #4

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    It's most definitely guitar. It is one of the most difficult instruments.


    That being said, isn't there a movie about a guy losing his mind trying to play Rachmaninoff's
    3rd, so...


    Btw, Yamashita is the greatest guitar player to ever live.

  6. #5

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    As you (Matt) have pointed out in a number of your posts, pedagogy for other instruments, incl. piano, is much more well-developed and consistent than it is for guitar. (I know there are thriving debates as to how to play, and train, but what to play, much less so.)

    Barry Harris said that there are more decent level pianists in the world, than probably any other type of instrumental player. Certainly there is no shortage of prodigy-type wunderkindt pianists being minted every year. Guitar....much less so, and even there, probably mostly in classical where note choice and repertoire is much more fixed.
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 12-22-2016 at 04:01 PM.

  7. #6

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    Guitar. But I might be biased.

  8. #7

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    Piano has 12 keys that are exactly the same pattern - one octave all up and down the keyboard. Pretty easy to get your head around.

    Middle C is always, as are all notes, in the same exact location.

    Guitar each note has so many different locations it can make your head spin. Playing a C scale in the same octave, you can not only have various fingerings, but play them in 3 or more entirely different locations.

    Chords are a separate entity, as most guitar players play them, that are almost seemingly not related to the scale at all. Not so with piano. Scales and chords are one entity.

  9. #8

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    Point of information here (never played piano). What do you do to produce ..."in between" tones? Sound, two adjacent (half-step apart) keys at the same time?

    Guitarists can bend strings, but what does a piano player do?

  10. #9

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    Piano is much harder.

  11. #10

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    It depends whether you can play the piano or not. I can't. I can't do the both-hands-together thing. Even though, technically, we do different things with the hands on a guitar.

    What I have found, however, is that high-level pianists seem a lot more savvy, musically educated and capable of seriously intricate improvisation than any other instrument. See Levine's jazz book for one.

    Quite often, if I want to get a good sneak preview into different arrangements of a tune, I'll go to a piano vid on YouTube.

    I actually think guitarists are somewhat limited in the scope imposed by the instrument, and it shows in their playing.

  12. #11

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    Piano is the perfect instrument, because you can see everything and it's the same in every octave. Not sure this makes it any easier than guitar (which is is a stupid instrument because of that way it's tuned). Once you get accustomed to the fact that the guitar is tuned wrong and can make the necessary adjustment to compensate for it, I think you can get your "head around" how the theory maps out on the fretboard. When it comes to getting your "hands around" either instrument, I think it's a lifetime endeavor.

    Just my opinion (and worth what it cost.)

  13. #12

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    Yes, there are many more savvy and brilliant pianists than guitarists. But it's not that that's directly proportional to the level of difficulty between the two. At a certain point it's easier to grok the piano earlier. Guitar is just a mess to get to a mastery level of looking and executing the fretboard. In the meantime, pianists are doing Herbie transcriptions and Tatum and playing bop.


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    Last edited by henryrobinett; 12-22-2016 at 07:04 PM.

  14. #13

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    I think piano is harder. The music that the masters play is just way more complex than can be played on guitar. Mentally much more challenging.


  15. #14

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    I think we shouldn't focus on the obvious--the straightforward keyboard layout of the piano, patterns of notes, etc.--while ignoring the complexities of technique.

    In my opinion and observation, having had a son who is a bit of a keyboard prodigy, here are some arguments in favor of the keyboard being much harder to play at a high level: requires years of practice to play passages of even medium complexity well; must start at an early age--like gymnastics and Olympic swimming, nobody becomes a world-class pianist starting at age 16; strict adherence to hand placement and fingering; much more "rule-based" than guitar or many other instruments; the repertoire is much more defined in its structure yet more demanding.

    As far as the guitar tuning, that is arbitrary of course and developed over time to make it easier to play common note progressions and chords. Guitar music is written in a "guitaristic" manner to take advantage of this.

    The keyboard layout is logical, but nothing makes me think it's designed for the human hand or with ease of use in mind.

    Best argument in favor of the piano being harder: I can play guitar, I can't play piano for crap...
    Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 12-23-2016 at 12:37 AM.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    I think piano is harder. The music that the masters play is just way more complex than can be played on guitar. Mentally much more challenging.

    OK, fine. But this is exactly my point. How many guitar players do you know who can play with anything close to that kind of mastery? I think you're getting the complexity of the music confused with the complexity of learning the instrument. Yes, there was only one Tatum, but you had Phineas Newborn Jr, Oscar Peterson, to name two others who were in the same general orbit.

    Just my opinion. And I agree, the most perfect instrument is the piano. I LOVE piano and piano music and piano players. I've listened to far more pianists than I have guitarists.

  17. #16

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    Let's not forget Bud Powell.

  18. #17
    Most of the arguments for piano being more difficult aren't comparing apples to apples from what I gather.

    Mary had a little lamb for any group of five-year-olds . Teach them on guitar and on piano. Which is going to take longer. Of course, that's completely disregarding the fact that any five-year-old playing any given note on the piano can play with exactly the same tone as the worlds best pianist , at least at a given velocity on the given note. Not true for almost any other instrument.

    Take any group of guitarists and pianist which have each played 10 years or more, now. Give them each repertory worthy of a 10 year classical guitarist and a 10 year classical pianist . The pianists will all be able to play the guitarists music easily. The reverse is simply not true . It's certainly not going to be at same level.

    Horn players use piano to work out complex theory. Guitarists use piano to work out complex theory. Pianists use piano to work out complex theory. This is not by accident, and it's certainly not because piano is harder than other instruments.

    The argument that piano is more difficult because the highest level is playing more difficult music isn't really the correct logic in my opinion. If the ceiling is lower for other instruments, that doesn't mean they're easier to play. The ceiling is lower because they're actually more difficult to play mostly.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 12-22-2016 at 07:16 PM.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee
    Let's not forget Bud Powell.
    Yep. And again, I'm not saying which instrument is better or more elegant or which you can play the most amazing orchestral, stuff, fast with counter-point, etc.. I'm just saying the level of difficulty to play at a mastery level.

  20. #19
    I can ride my horse with more skill than you can ride your cow . Therefore, horses are more difficult to ride than Cows?

  21. #20

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    If you can get to the point of getting cows to do tricks like horses then you can make the point that cows are HARDER to master than horses. It might take you years, and years and years to get cows to do horse tricks. Whereas in a couple of years most horses can do decent riding tricks.

    Guitar is just a bastard. It takes two hands to play one note or up to 6 at a time. It takes timed coordination to get them to do this limited thing.

    Piano uses each finger per note, up to 10 simultaneously. It's made for virtuosity. Guitar is like training a cow.
    Last edited by henryrobinett; 12-22-2016 at 08:14 PM.

  22. #21

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    I can play most of the lines I play on guitar at the keyboard easily and I'm no kind of pianist.

    Ergo - guitar is harder, for jazz. And classical too, because music that is beginner stuff for piano is high level for guitar.

    Guitar is easier for other stuff. Rock, folk, blues. That's the home turf.

    In jazz guitar is trying to edge in on other instruments. Best jazz guitarists are those who have discovered how to make the guitar work for them, not against them.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
    There is no "harder." It is just as difficult to completely master any instrument as any other. Is Itzhak Perlman better than Glenn Gould? Is Michael Brecker better than Wynton Marsalis? The bar is set in the same place: Within sight but out of reach.

    But there are instruments which are easier to start than others. I can't imagine anything being easier to start than bass guitar. All the spacial relationships translate both across the strings and up the neck, and if you learn four notes you have the entire Chuck Berry repertoire at your fingertips.
    Ah,OK. But you're equating better with harder.I'm not saying which is better.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
    There is no "harder." It is just as difficult to completely master any instrument as any other. Is Itzhak Perlman better than Glenn Gould? Is Michael Brecker better than Wynton Marsalis? The bar is set in the same place: Within sight but out of reach.

    But there are instruments which are easier to start than others. I can't imagine anything being easier to start than bass guitar. All the spacial relationships translate both across the strings and up the neck, and if you learn four notes you have the entire Chuck Berry repertoire at your fingertips.
    I agree--I think when you get to the level of extreme virtuosity you are talking about a very select group of people who have committed tens of thousands of hours of preparation on their instrument. One can't say Horowitz was better than Segovia or Heifetz, for instance.

    I also agree with the second part. Personally I think that stringed instruments--standard guitar, bass, uke--have a built-in advantage in that the fingerings when learned are comfortable, natural and repeatable up and down the fretboard. You learn a dozen chords, you can play virtually any folk or rock song out there. 2 dozen, you're into Steely Dan territory.

    I don't see piano chordings or scales as natural, but then I haven't seriously tried to learn the instrument. I've only doodled a bit. My conclusion is that the learning curve from beginner to intermediate is much steeper with keyboards and requires a lot more time. To go from intermediate to expert probably requires a similar commitment among different instruments.

  25. #24

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    Piano may be easier at the very beginning (no problems with sound production vizualization and all) ... especially with kids: just press the button and it sounds...

    But after this beginning level it's the same sh't for every instrument...

    Is Itzhak Perlman better than Glenn Gould?
    Gould is by far on the other level But not beacuse he played piano...

  26. #25

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    The only time I find guitar easier is when the singer asks if we can play her piece a half step up.....