The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Absolutely. You don't need to be a Michelin-starred chef to know whether what you're eating is crap or not :-)
    There is obviously a culture around food, though. Some people like all the fancy stuff. Others find the rules around having x wine with food y and so on very constraining.

    Many people simply won't eat certain dishes now matter how well executed they are.

    I daresay chefs, like musicians are up for trying anything, but I don't know many chefs so that might be rubbish haha....

    Also, sometimes you are in the mood for something fancy and sometimes you want a burger.

    Happy Christmas!

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  3. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    sometimes you are in the mood for something fancy and sometimes you want a burger.
    Yeah!

  4. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    In general in response to the OP, I put it to you that maybe high level guitar and high level piano are equally hard it's just that what is 'high level' is different.

    Making the guitar to emulate the piano is something else. But from a point of view of making great music, it's not totally laughable to put Jim Hall up there with Bill Evans, is it?
    Yes, that's a good way to consider it all, I mean, it's like comparing the Olympic gold medalist in Cycling to the gold medalist in Sprinting. Obviously the cyclist has machinery to assist in being able to travel faster....

    But I'm also interested in the non mechanical differences. Let's say we believe Hal Galper when he says that the instrument is an illusion. If true musicianship exists in the imagination- the quality of what you hear and how you can express what you hear- then surely there is a way to quantify how developed the musical mind might be in different instrumentalists. Now, we train our musical mind with our instrument, so it can't be a total illusion. The piano creates superior musicians primarily because it is a superior "music teaching machine". Pianists I know are better at hearing, better at transcription, better at discerning rhythm, better at hearing bass lines, better at composition, even better at singing, or can improvise vocally better than other instrumentalists I know. Generally speaking, and based on my own limited observations, granted...

    But I have to ask myself why I think I'm noticing these differences. Is it because the piano is a better "teacher", or is it because better quality "potential musicians" are attracted to the piano in the first place, because they find other instruments too limiting?

  5. #129

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    The simplest explanation is because his music sounds closer to what the music sounds like in my head/heart. Also, as someone who has played "virtuosic level" pieces in different styles and on different instruments, it is fascinating to me that there seems to be NO END to his virtuosity. It is truly as if nothing is harder for him than a c major scale. It's most certainly true the limitations are that of the guitar, not him.

    As to why in a bit more detail, let's start with dynamics. Yamashita seems to overcome what is the greatest fault of the guitar. He possesses a full true pppp to F. Most guitarists (myself absolutely included) range from p to mf.

    Tone color, he invokes colors I've never heard before. Textures I've never heard. And that is before you even include REVOLUTIONARY techniques he uses to play things I'm not convinced a human can actually play. Things like simultaneous different tremelos with his index and pinky, while playing the bass with his thumb...

    Fire... some people have this inside them, others don't. For a simple explanation, there are some people who just "don't get" Yngwie (note I didn't say like). No amount of trying to convince them would help, they lack the fire inside them that players like yngwie, Yamashita, holdsworth, tap into. I'm convinced they lack the ability to respond to that particular emotional stimuli.... Back to Yamashita, his playing is unmatched in its ferocity. Regardless of what the technical demands are, he can imagine it into reality. If he wants to play it at 170 bpm, he does it. 200, sure. 250 no matter. The only limitation is his imagination.

    technique... he is unmatched

    musicality... he is incredibly creative. As to whether he follows the score "perfectly" I don't particularly care. First, I don't want to hear the same piece played the same way by every player in the world. Second, I think if those composers could have imagined someone actually possessing the technical ability he does, they would probably compose the piece differently.

    Instrument knowledge. His interpretive decision making demonstrates a complete understanding of his instruments design and ability.



    .......


    All that being said, I can understand why some people don't like to listen to him. But to that i offer this rebuttal.


    His is not a passive listen, it's a roller coaster ride.
    with all respect.. to me it's all too abstract from music.

    From your post I get the feeling that you appreciate

    - his fantastic control over instrument which I never denied... but control over the instrument is the means.

    - his creativity - which for me again is a bit abstract... there are very determined things in musical pieces that are easily described... I can't see creativity per se... without application to certain musical pieces.

    Actually as I said before to certain degree I can appreciate his Pictures from Exhibition... where probably his skills fall into the right path... this music is too abstract from any musical language (even Russian music)...
    Maybe he would have been good in Xenakis or something like that... something that uses absolutely different musical convention... if he had a chance.

    In traditional repertoire he sounds to me like he is lost and trying to invent something, to estimate some relations basing on very different parameters than this music has as basis.

    Probably it's because of the different culture as Christian said... I have heard many fantastic technicians from Far East who played Rkhmaninov or Bach... and almost always I had very strange alien feeling...

    You know it's like a guy who would come to traditional European house and would try to identify the purposes of the rooms and finally would decide that here you should cook in the bathroom and sleep in the kitchen...
    Maybe he will succeed and maybe it's creative even.. but it's not what the house-builder meant to be for sure.

  6. #130

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    sometimes you are in the mood for something fancy and sometimes you want a burger.
    Yeh... so you come to McDonalds and some creative @@@@ serves you an Entrecote bourdolaise

  7. #131

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    But I get why people get a bit annoyed at the dichotomy of technique vs. musicality. It's a cliche, and also there are plenty of players that have both.
    It comes actually from different side... techical issues are mostly discussed by those who protect these kind of players.

    I have pratly funn but for me mostly sad story... I like 40th Symphony played by Furtwangler (he has two records, I think this one is of war period, not sure).

    Whenever I put it one to someone everybody laughs and think that I put it to mock Furt because of the slurs violines make at the beginning...
    The same thing I had with Konstantin Lifschits playing Musical Offering... poeple think I put it on to laugh at his muddy 'pedal work'...
    I get so lost at these moments that I do not even to go on with explaining...

    So who speaks about technique...

  8. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    We deffinitely speak from different prospectives...

    La Cathedral is very typical late romantic style piece... to me with a touch of stylistic imitation.

    (long post snipped)

    I can go in more details with a score if you like it.
    Thanks for your post. I always enjoy a careful analysis of a complex tune, regardless of my personal opinion of the performance.

    As for Ana Vidovic, I love her playing and I think most of us here would agree that she is quite pleasant to watch!

  9. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah

    "Sounds to me like he's lost"

    "and almost always I had very strange alien feeling... "


    Like I said, no amount of explanation will help you "get it". I explained to you (granted in short) what I liked in general about his interpretations, and your response is to tell me what you think I like??? Perhaps what you value in music bores me to tears, and what I value, you consider "too much". That's fine, art is subjective.


    However,


    Comments like these conjure a vision of art critics standing in front of a Van Goah saying, "that's not how sunflowers are supposed to look"...


    History doesn't remember the critic, they remember the visionary.

  10. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    My own approach to it is that I don't slag someone making a living playing music. I'm comfortable saying "I don't like" this or that artist, but if they're out there releasing albums and working the boards, they're doing something right.

    Of course I have my own tastes, but even when an artist's music (or art, or writing, etc) doesn't line up with my tastes, I do my level best to acknowledge what talent is involved, simply because art so subjective. I spent six years managing a custom-framing shop, building frames for art, both original and reprint. One artist I got sick of framing was Diane Romanello, whose work I thought thoroughly pedestrian -- but she sold like hotcakes, so clearly she was touching people enough to drive the dollars. That isn't the metric for what I think of as art, but let's face it: we all have our own metric for what is and isn't art.

    No doubt many people think the music I write is junk, and no doubt others love it. I don't know that it's art myself. I only know that I've got to write it when it comes knocking.
    My motto is "don't argue with success". But if someone's jivin' I might, politely, tell them that to their face. And that goes both ways (I can take a punch) although I will defend myself if I feel they're wrong.Not long ago I had to take issue with a girlfriend that was ignorantly criticizing my playing. She was out doing some errands and I was at her house practicing. She came back and sat down and said "Will you do me a favor?" I smelt a rat and said "Well I don't know. It depends on what it is." She came back with "Will you please not play if you're not going to play in time." I tried to calmly explain that I was practicing and not performing and that while she was out I was working on some difficult new stuff that wasn't familiar to me so I was just experimenting with some fingerings and that sort of thing. She was (aggressively) not having it and told me how, being a dancer, timing was everything to her. I told her to go play in the freeway and called her a White Hillbilly Clog Dancer. It's a good idea to keep people like that away from the woodshed.

    But if an artist wants my time, attention and money they're going to have to pay for it by listening to my opinion. And conversely if someone's just hearing me through an open window quietly practicing, and they don't like it, they can keep their opinion to themselves.

    I looked at some images from the artist you mentioned. Kitsch is the word I'd use. Typical of the Glowing Cottages, Dogs Playing Poker and Cats Playing With a Ball of String school. Or if it's three dimensional, mass produced Capodimonte figurines advertised on TV. It's hard to compare that to the artist (who teaches at Yale) who's big time Manhattan exhibit consists of a pile of dirt with a sheet of plywood leaning against it. Oh well, what ever pulls your tractor.

    Several years ago there was a critical essay titled Taste is the Enemy. I haven't read it or been able to find it and don't really know what it's all about but I was intrigued by the title.

  11. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Yeh... so you come to McDonalds and some creative @@@@ serves you an Entrecote bourdolaise
    Yeah, I hate it when that happens.

    Ate quite a lot of McDonalds in Japan, and I love Japanese food... Just needed something familiar and simple (to my Western palette)

    BTW Japanese McDonalds I think is a cut above UK McDonalds (which doesn't even have the benefit of being fast.)

  12. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Well, it does a bit. You don't mind? When I saw the great block of textp I didn't bother with it. Then I took the trouble to read it and realised how good it was.
    No I don't mind and always welcome constructive criticism. And this thread has turned into one on criticism.

    I'm somewhat of a newcomer to forums and online writing protocols but have of course noticed the tendency for people to space things in order to make them more readable. Part of me is resistant to this but I realize there is an intrinsic difference between reading something on a screen or on paper. Maybe this relates to this: I knew a guy in the 80s that published poetry and was a wordsmith in general. He said that he could always tell writing by someone who'd learned to write on a word processor.

  13. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee
    My motto is "don't argue with success". But if someone's jivin' I might, politely, tell them that to their face. And that goes both ways (I can take a punch) although I will defend myself if I feel they're wrong.Not long ago I had to take issue with a girlfriend that was ignorantly criticizing my playing. She was out doing some errands and I was at her house practicing. She came back and sat down and said "Will you do me a favor?" I smelt a rat and said "Well I don't know. It depends on what it is." She came back with "Will you please not play if you're not going to play in time." I tried to calmly explain that I was practicing and not performing and that while she was out I was working on some difficult new stuff that wasn't familiar to me so I was just experimenting with some fingerings and that sort of thing. She was (aggressively) not having it and told me how, being a dancer, timing was everything to her. I told her to go play in the freeway and called her a White Hillbilly Clog Dancer. It's a good idea to keep people like that away from the woodshed.

    But if an artist wants my time, attention and money they're going to have to pay for it by listening to my opinion. And conversely if someone's just hearing me through an open window quietly practicing, and they don't like it, they can keep their opinion to themselves.

    I looked at some images from the artist you mentioned. Kitsch is the word I'd use. Typical of the Glowing Cottages, Dogs Playing Poker and Cats Playing With a Ball of String school. Or if it's three dimensional, mass produced Capodimonte figurines advertised on TV. It's hard to compare that to the artist (who teaches at Yale) who's big time Manhattan exhibit consists of a pile of dirt with a sheet of plywood leaning against it. Oh well, what ever pulls your tractor.

    Several years ago there was a critical essay titled Taste is the Enemy. I haven't read it or been able to find it and don't really know what it's all about but I was intrigued by the title.
    I would love to read that essay.

    These are very complex issues.

    In a sense it is best if a working musician has no musical taste at all, because playing music is so different to listening to it. Most of the musicians tend to evaluate things on the basis of how well they are done, and go from there.

    I have become less opinionated over time (no really) but I would describe myself as massively more opinionated than most of my colleagues! Influenced by my dad - a lay listener with very strong tastes.

    For example, although I respect execution and sheer ability, it doesn't interest me that much. This might shape me as a player - I don't think I'm as neat and tidy as I probably should be. But on the other hand, IMO everything now is too neat and tidy by half.

    Gyorgy Ligeti said (I paraphrase no doubt) 'music shouldn't have it's tie all straight.'

    For example, I cannot be bothered with the Punch Brothers - who pretty much every musician I know seems to love - but they are all amazing and I have to respect that. My feeling is - OK, so you've covered Kid A by Radiohead on Bluegrass instrumentation. Highly impressive. Also, So f**king what?

    Until Chris Thile writes another tune as good as Rye Whisky (which is a decent song), I'm not terribly interested.

    BTW Jonah have you heard his Bach Mandolin record?
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-26-2016 at 11:03 AM.

  14. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Yes, that's a good way to consider it all, I mean, it's like comparing the Olympic gold medalist in Cycling to the gold medalist in Sprinting. Obviously the cyclist has machinery to assist in being able to travel faster....

    But I'm also interested in the non mechanical differences. Let's say we believe Hal Galper when he says that the instrument is an illusion. If true musicianship exists in the imagination- the quality of what you hear and how you can express what you hear- then surely there is a way to quantify how developed the musical mind might be in different instrumentalists. Now, we train our musical mind with our instrument, so it can't be a total illusion. The piano creates superior musicians primarily because it is a superior "music teaching machine". Pianists I know are better at hearing, better at transcription, better at discerning rhythm, better at hearing bass lines, better at composition, even better at singing, or can improvise vocally better than other instrumentalists I know. Generally speaking, and based on my own limited observations, granted...

    But I have to ask myself why I think I'm noticing these differences. Is it because the piano is a better "teacher", or is it because better quality "potential musicians" are attracted to the piano in the first place, because they find other instruments too limiting?

    Hey, I stated this thread, and I think a lot of very interesting thoughts have been brought up, but no one has addressed the above, you all skipped over it. Jazz pianists may be better musicians than most other instrumentalists. Do you dare to disagree? Is being a better musician harder than not being a better musician?

  15. #139

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    Personally I like and welcome intelligent criticism. It's a question of 'only your best friend will tell you'. I've no interest at all in people who smile and say 'lovely' whatever you do. I've seen too much of it. It implies they don't actually give a damn about you or your music. Or, of course, they have absolutely no discrimination and don't know what they're talking about.

    I'd much rather someone expressed their honest opinion than blahed out some meaninglessly trite comment. Or said 'I don't really know, I'm not up in these things' and meant it honestly.

    There's a good bookshop near where I live. I've been noticing for some time now that they've been advertising their books by displaying their own or other authors' write-ups. Obviously they've got to sell books but every single notice says 'The best novel this year'. 'Superlative writing. 'This new author is headed for great things' etc etc, blah blah. It's obviously nonsense, designed solely to get people to buy books.

    It means the whole point and purpose of critique has become devalued. It means you can't trust a word they say because they only have their own commercial interests at heart - at the expense of the customer. With other more mundane commodities one might expect a bit of that but in the realm of artistry - writing, music, or whatever else - the Trade Descriptions Act doesn't seem to apply!

    As mostly experienced players here I think we can afford to be honest with each other if necessary. What do you say?

  16. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Is being a better musician harder than not being a better musician?
    Definitely, with or without the talent. It doesn't float from the sky, it implies a lot of study and hours of work. Also experience. You can't give a person experience.

    As I've got older I found I've become more and more simple, not more complex. These days I tend to put in just about all it takes to make it work. Keeps the brain nice and clear. But it's knowing what to put in and leave out. That's the rub.

    If you can stand it, there's an old story in a shipyard. They're trying to launch this huge ship and it just won't go. They've tried everything but no joy. Then someone says 'Let's get old Joe Smith from the village. He worked here for years and knows all the tricks'.

    So off they go to get Joe Smith. He arrives with a small hammer, gives it a tap and, bob's your uncle, off floats the ship. 'That'll be £100, please' he says.

    'A hundred pounds!' they cry, 'for one tap with a hammer?'

    'Sure' says Joe. '£1 for hitting it and £99 for knowing where to hit it'.


    My dad told me that, years ago :-)
    Last edited by ragman1; 12-26-2016 at 11:56 AM.

  17. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Definitely, with or without the talent. It doesn't float from the sky, it implies a lot of study and hard work. Also experience. You can't give a person experience.
    Then will you agree that Jazz pianists are better musicians than Jazz guitarists?

  18. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    Here is the video of him playing:



    What I love most about his playing is not his unparalled technique or musicality but rather, his energy. I haven't seen or heard a classical guitarist display such strong passion or energy in their playing or at least comparatively speaking.. Incredible I say!
    I don't know much about classical guitar so won't criticize this guys playing on a technical or even a musical level but from a performance standpoint those right hand flourishes at the beginning of the piece ain't gettin' it in 2016. Maybe back in the day when people were wearing powdered wigs, but not now. Maybe in some parts of the world they still do wear powdered wigs but this cowboy ain't buyin' it. IM(somewhat arrogant)O he's milking it.

    Somebody thinks this is the world's greatest guitarist. And judging from the Harvard audience's reaction plenty are in agreement. Again, I'm not an expert on this type of music but it doesn't seem that great to me. A guy played this for me and was all impressed then I played him some Paco de Lucia and he capitulated and said "Yeah yeah ok I get it".

    Sometimes the emperor is just buck ass naked.



  19. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    have you heard his Bach Mandolin record?
    I have. Just before Xmas, as it happens.


  20. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    Like I said, no amount of explanation will help you "get it". I explained to you (granted in short) what I liked in general about his interpretations, and your response is to tell me what you think I like??? Perhaps what you value in music bores me to tears, and what I value, you consider "too much". That's fine, art is subjective.


    However,


    Comments like these conjure a vision of art critics standing in front of a Van Goah saying, "that's not how sunflowers are supposed to look"...


    History doesn't remember the critic, they remember the visionary.
    History does remember good visionary critics like Walter Benjamin, Clement Greenberg and Harold Rosenberg and many others. But you're going to have to do some work and look for them. And no worthy critic is going to stand in front of a Van Gogh and say "that's not how sunflowers are supposed to look". That's rookie stuff. Jasper Johns, who could be critical of critics, said that "90 some percent of all people can't go beyond subject matter". In music it might be said that "90% of all listeners can't go beyond melody."

  21. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Then will you agree that Jazz pianists are better musicians than Jazz guitarists?
    Depends what you mean by better. Relatively, not necessarily. They're different instruments requiring different skills. A brilliant jazz guitarist may be 'better' than a not-so-brilliant jazz pianist.

  22. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee

    Somebody thinks this is the world's greatest guitarist.


    No, they don't, you twit. It's a joke. Did you watch it?

  23. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Then will you agree that Jazz pianists are better musicians than Jazz guitarists?
    What, in the sense that guitarists can't sight read, play in time or transcribe as well? Well you know that's just so REDUCTIONIST, man.. ;-)

    Pianists are sometimes a bit lacking in the 'acknowledging there are other musicians in the group some of whom might have an idea about harmony' because their instruments are so complete on their own. But experienced ensemble players aren't like this, it's usually guys who play on their own a lot.

    I can't go back all over all your post, so I just wanted to say, guitar is a bit of a culture on its own, and that much of this culture may not have much to do with music. I feel a lot of discussions on this forum are coming from this place, especially those to with technique, scales and so on. I'm not saying those things aren’t important, but more that they are often discussed from a sort of guitar mind set.

    Pianists tend to be more... music oriented. Classical training I think is really good for this.

    For me, I remember when Barney Kessel said 'be a musician, not a guitarist.' For me being a musician involves a bit of piano playing, like you say it is a great teaching machine for music even if one's actual chops aren't up to performing. You don't have to be Franz Liszt to get into a bit of keyboard harmony, and it teaches all sorts of things.

    Another thing is that pianists tend to start super early compared to guitar players.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-12-2018 at 07:42 PM.

  24. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    [...] Even when I say: he does not understand what he plays... it does not mean he is a retarded idiot that should be exterminated. Obviously he has his own undertstanding of this thing, but usually it's taken exactly if it is a personal insult.[...]
    Sure, too many people get offended if you don't share their tastes. But I've never spent too much time worrying about their opinions, especially -- because that sort of sensitivity seems rooted, to me, in insecurity -- it's as if they need you to like their favorites for their own validation ("I must have good taste, all my friends like what I do").

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Though the older I get the less I speak it out loud... that's true. I even noticed that I get to be afraid of sying anything at all - even the humblest things - people get so irritated immediately.
    It's not out of fear that I don't get loud with my critique. I've never tiptoed around people's feelings too much, and I don't think I'll be starting any time soon. I withhold my criticisms of a working musician because they're doing something I've never managed to do -- support themselves with just their talent -- and I respect that (even if it's Madonna or Will.I.Am). The other thing is that I try to withhold my own judgement until that time when I feel like I have a better grasp on someone's artistry.

  25. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    No, they don't, you twit. It's a joke. Did you watch it?
    I know, I thought it was joke myself at first. But when I heard the audience's fatuous reaction at some parts I thought differently. And two different people on separate occasions played it for me who were impressed with it and thought it was serious. Anyway thanks for the Twit Alert. I hope you're right. Maybe it's just a Harvard thing. An academic I know was dissing Harvard as being light weight. Could have fooled me.

    I'm so jaded that I'll believe a lot of crazy stuff. I posted a video of Eric Clapton trying to play jazz. I thought it was genuine until another forum member straightened me out and said that it wasn't.
    Last edited by mrcee; 12-26-2016 at 12:29 PM.

  26. #150

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    Blimey, that Yama guy's like fifteen rounds with Mike Tyson!

    takes an asprin