Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Posts 51 to 100 of 216
  1. #51

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by zdub
    Yeah, but a guitar is MUCH easier to play in different keys. Playing a C scale and a Db scale uses the exact same fingering on a guitar. Transposing on guitar is trivial, not so on a piano.
    Yeah, that's an advantage except when you realize that guitar has about 5 different locations to play anything and that the piano has only 12 different one octave fingerings for 12 keys all over the keyboard.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    The flute is just one line. Can you sight-read piano music? And to what level?

    And when you say guitar is hardest, do you mean for everybody or for you? Some people (like me!) find piano impossible but guitar much easier.
    Again, are we comparing apples to apples? Two, three, four parts are difficult on piano or any instrument, I'd imagine. But are they really only EQUALLY difficult on the guitar...... or actually easier? To play basic four-part music on the guitar, fundamental questions have to be answered about how you're going to re-voice things on the fly.

    If it's not fair to compare flute music to piano , the same has to be considered with piano music , but the other way around. Are you saying "PIANO music" is difficult on piano? If so, is it actually EASIER to play on the guitar?

    Again, I would ask: Which of the following is more often true?

    Pianists have an easier time reading/playing "guitar music" or guitarists have an easier time reading/playing "piano music". All things being equal, I don't think there's any contest there.

  4. #53

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    The flute is just one line. Can you sight-read piano music? And to what level?

    And when you say guitar is hardest, do you mean for everybody or for you? Some people (like me!) find piano impossible but guitar much easier.
    Really? Maybe it depends on what level you play or aspire to play at. There's so many aspects to playing guitar that require real study. Chords, chord melody, scales, arpeggios and complex soloing, comping, sight reading, classical Pima right hand technique, sounds and tone, styles like bop, blues rock, country, pop. Damn. Much more diverse stylistically that's piano.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #54

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Not if you want to 'do it properly' in the sense that a great fingering for g major might sound not so great for d major.... but yes there are definite advantages with chromatic stuff where the intervals stay the same.

    Using open strings complicates things too... but that's one of the guitars most beautiful natural resources.
    Agreed. The best chromatic stuff on guitar, to me, are movable chord forms. I occasionally work on my piano skills, and just moving seventh chords chromatically is a bit of a challenge!

    I'm not sure any instrument is easier to master than any other, but some are easier to get started on. So many factors... and at the end of the day the mind is the more important instrument to master

  6. #55

    User Info Menu

    Just listening to "Just Friends" from the Bird with Strings album. Those flourishes that Bird plays strike me as not all that difficult on piano, but really, really challenging on a guitar. Clifford Brown's stuff on trumpet.

    Consider Conti's Precision Technique exercises...which are the Wohlfahrt violin exercises intended for beginning violin students. He says they are easy for violin students: He would try to pick them on guitar, and his violinist friends were always asking him "Can't you play up to speed?". (I think they're much easier fingerstyle.) Violin--one pull of the bow---many notes. Granted this is not piano, but pushing a piano key is a single movement like picking, but then there is the left hand to deal with.

  7. #56

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    The flute is just one line. Can you sight-read piano music? And to what level?

    And when you say guitar is hardest, do you mean for everybody or for you? Some people (like me!) find piano impossible but guitar much easier.
    Its not about me or about how I read the sheet on these instruments. What I was telling about flute was only an example.
    Well, sorry to say that but Your 3r question is not standard. How could I talk in the name of everyone here? Of course this was only my opinion.
    You find guitar easier because You can push the scales/chords/intervals/licks on the guitar, which You cant do on the piano. But if You can see the intervals it wont be so difficult. Of course YOu have to know the intervals inside chords, scales etc. but thats not linking to one or another instrument, that is a must if You learn to play any instrument. Learning the guitar at high level (what was the question) is much more complex because of its diversity. You cant play flamenco on piano for example, but You can play stride on the guitar!
    One of my jazz guitarist friends knows a guy who has master degree in jazz clarinet, and wanted to learn the guitar. After a few months he told to my friend that he stopped because he just cant „see” on the fretboard, he is going to stay at the clarinet, and the piano (where I live, if You visit conservatory or university of music it is a must to learn piano for years).
    Every instrument can stand its place in musical environments, and I am happy that we have so many of these. I just shared my opinion, because I learnt 4 of these beautiful instruments, so I think I have a right to tell it.
    It doesnt matter which instrument You choose, it can even be a simple whistle, it will be a lifelong journey to take its playing to the excellent artistic level. I chose guitar because I love the feel, the look, the tone, I am fighting with learning a lot of things on it, but I like it, and that is what is most important!
    Last edited by mrblues; 12-23-2016 at 04:46 PM.

  8. #57

    User Info Menu

    There are a lot of interesting digressions here. I don't disagree vehemently with anyone's point of view. A lot seems based on one's personal experience, which is interesting but anecdotal.

    I had no problem starting out with guitar and can sight-read classical pieces reasonably well. Even though I can pick out a song on piano, e.g., Beatles songs, I can't really conceptualize it the way I can with guitar. Maybe that's just because I haven't focused on it.

    I'd like to see some research on this issue. Here are a couple of music teacher observations which I think are salient.

    Piano vs Guitar: Which is Easier to Learn for Beginners?

    Guitar vs. Piano: Which One Should You Choose? | Molly's Music Blog

    My conclusion is that instant gratification, i.e., first few months, favors piano. For early learning after that, IMO, the guitar is more approachable--once you get a few chords and positions under your belt. While some would say that intermediate-level playing is similar, personally (from having been to a gazillion piano recitals with my kids) I think the typical piano routine is more regimented and requires several years to achieve competence, while my observation is that guitar players make progress more quickly even without a formal teacher.

    As far as HIGH level playing, I really think they're very similar, no matter what the instrument, even flute ;-) You're talking about people who have mastered skill sets and are then pushing the boundaries to make art.

  9. #58

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I would say guitar. The piano seems built to accommodate virtuosity, the guitar, to humble it.
    Interesting--I really wish I understood this--can you explain it in more depth please??

  10. #59

    User Info Menu

    Well, just a few observations ... I love both instruments to listen to, but have only played a little piano very informally.

    The bar is much higher on piano. Because the potential is so much greater (10 notes possible, one note per finger move), the level of virtuosity achieved has been higher. To me there only is one guitar player who has done anything worthwhile in a pianistic style, and that's Stanley Jordan, who plays primarily tapping and also tunes in even increments -- thus neutralizing two disadvantages.

    What the guitar has different from piano is the beautiful sound of ringing strings, the string sound being more akin to vocal chords than anything the piano can produce. The slides into and out of notes, all the tonal variety.

    Now what do we mean by "high level"? Professional competence? Being a real star on the instrument, leading bands? It seems to be pretty much the same -- way more time commitment than I've given it.

    For my money, top 5 pianists, chronologically: Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson, McCoy Tyner, Chick Corea, Hiromi Uehara.

    No guitarist has equaled their virtuosity. It's rather amazing how close Wes and the 2 Pats have come.

  11. #60

    User Info Menu

    A piano is harder than a guitar. While they both are made of wood, the piano also has some very hard metal inside.

    Also, a piano is much harder to lift.

  12. #61

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilpy
    A piano is harder than a guitar.
    There's always one

  13. #62

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JazzinNY
    Well, just a few observations ... I love both instruments to listen to, but have only played a little piano very informally.

    The bar is much higher on piano. Because the potential is so much greater (10 notes possible, one note per finger move), the level of virtuosity achieved has been higher. To me there only is one guitar player who has done anything worthwhile in a pianistic style, and that's Stanley Jordan, who plays primarily tapping and also tunes in even increments -- thus neutralizing two disadvantages.

    What the guitar has different from piano is the beautiful sound of ringing strings, the string sound being more akin to vocal chords than anything the piano can produce. The slides into and out of notes, all the tonal variety.

    Now what do we mean by "high level"? Professional competence? Being a real star on the instrument, leading bands? It seems to be pretty much the same -- way more time commitment than I've given it.

    For my money, top 5 pianists, chronologically: Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson, McCoy Tyner, Chick Corea, Hiromi Uehara.

    No guitarist has equaled their virtuosity. It's rather amazing how close Wes and the 2 Pats have come.
    Don't get this argument. You are saying that more possible notes at a time equals more "virtuoso potential"? Thus you would rank Paganini on a violin playing primarily single notes at a time as a lesser virtuoso than the - say - one thousand top pianists in history?

    I also take exception to your last 2 sentences. I understand that you only mentioned jazz guitarists and pianists, but the point remains the same: how does one truly compare Rachmaninoff on piano with Yamashita on guitar in terms of virtuosity? You simply cannot.

  14. #63

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Really? Maybe it depends on what level you play or aspire to play at. There's so many aspects to playing guitar that require real study. Chords, chord melody, scales, arpeggios and complex soloing, comping, sight reading, classical Pima right hand technique, sounds and tone, styles like bop, blues rock, country, pop. Damn. Much more diverse stylistically that's piano.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Your uncle, Mr. Mingus, was a very fine piano player in addition to his bass playing. Did he ever discuss playing the two instruments? (For the record, I think he was pretty atypical in his bass approach...almost played it like a lead instrument. Probably without listening to him, Jaco Pastorious may never have taken up bass.)
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 12-23-2016 at 10:44 PM.

  15. #64

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Interesting--I really wish I understood this--can you explain it in more depth please??
    The piano is so logical. The guitar is a weirdo. There's a reason all music theory is really piano related.

    Segovia says it better:

    The guitar is the most unpredictable and least reliable musical instrument in existence...and also the sweetest, the warmest, the most delicate, whose melancholic voice awakes in our soul exquisite reveries.

    The guitar is the easiest instrument to play, and the hardest to master.

  16. #65

    User Info Menu

    Jim Atkins, Chet's brother, said in a GP interview many years ago words to the effect that the guitar is the easiest instrument to play at an elementary level, and the most difficult to play at an advanced level.

  17. #66

    User Info Menu

    Playing both at once is a bitch.

  18. #67

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    Playing both at once is a bitch.
    I dunno, this guy seems to be able to do it, how hard can it be?


  19. #68

    User Info Menu

    Or with a few less keys...


  20. #69

    User Info Menu

    I think this is a fascinating little story about how a famous professional non-guitarist rock singer inspired a kid to compose a guitar concerto . The rock singer is Yes vocalist John Anderson and the kid is a classical guitarist named Andrew Rubin . It's a very nice little story on inspiring young people to create music.Here is Andrew's account of the process:


    "Working with Jon was a fantastic experience. The piece started when we sat in his home studio and he showed me Rodrigo's "Concierto De Aranjuez." Then he turned to me and said "now you've got to write your guitar concerto!"

    He may not have the technical facility to play fast lead guitar or classical technique, etc, but he understands how it works. He can compose in that style through playing chords, singing melodies, and making a lot of suggestions (i.e. "change keys here. Play a solo and then go up a fifth". or orchestrally, "Maybe add some flutes here, and pizzicato strings." and so on)

    Jon writes very in-the-moment. He has said many times that he believes an artist's most candid (and best) work is usually in the first take or two. So he creates by improvising most of the time, just singing a line, or jamming on guitar and recording it, and then going back and refining it. He said that's exactly how he used to write with Steve Howe; and that's how the bulk of Guitar Concerto was written.


    Here is the Concerto performed live


  21. #70

    User Info Menu

    I think this is a fascinating little story about how a famous professional non-guitarist rock singer inspired a kid to compose a guitar concerto . The rock singer is Yes vocalist John Anderson and the kid is a classical guitarist named Andrew Rubin . It's a very nice little story on inspiring young people to create music.Here is Andrew's account of the process:


    "Working with Jon was a fantastic experience. The piece started when we sat in his home studio and he showed me Rodrigo's "Concierto De Aranjuez." Then he turned to me and said "now you've got to write your guitar concerto!"

    He may not have the technical facility to play fast lead guitar or classical technique, etc, but he understands how it works. He can compose in that style through playing chords, singing melodies, and making a lot of suggestions (i.e. "change keys here. Play a solo and then go up a fifth". or orchestrally, "Maybe add some flutes here, and pizzicato strings." and so on)

    Jon writes very in-the-moment. He has said many times that he believes an artist's most candid (and best) work is usually in the first take or two. So he creates by improvising most of the time, just singing a line, or jamming on guitar and recording it, and then going back and refining it. He said that's exactly how he used to write with Steve Howe; and that's how the bulk of Guitar Concerto was written.


    Here is the Concerto performed live


    Navdeep Singh.

    TBH both music and performance are so...

    And there's a big chance the guy will soon have left hand problem.. is h really a classical guitarist by the way... who taught him to hold guitar like this? He looks like he just imitates classical guitarists poisture
    Last edited by Jonah; 12-24-2016 at 02:28 AM.

  22. #71

    User Info Menu

    To me Stanley sounds cool because he has very cool natural phrasing... I never cared much about his two hands tapping tricks but I enjoyed his musicality

    as per playing both piano and guitar... I am sure it's about a couple of weeks of practice (maybe even a couple of hours) if you're a guitar player with basic piano skills and you'll do it... (but probably not this phrasing Stanley has)

  23. #72

    User Info Menu

    As my late guitar teacher told me, "the beauty of guitar is that it's easy to learn but impossible to master."

    Piano is harder for me because on guitar, the two hands are contriving one note or chord, whereas on the piano the two hands are often very independent.

    Of course, I'd probably have a very different opinion had I spent 35 years on keys instead of fretboard.
    Last edited by Thumpalumpacus; 12-24-2016 at 05:23 AM.

  24. #73

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah

    And there's a big chance the guy will soon have left hand problem.. is h really a classical guitarist by the way... who taught him to hold guitar like this? He looks like he just imitates classical guitarists poisture
    I'm curious as to what, exactly, you find objectionable. Is is the lack of any angle between the forearm, and wrist? The reason I ask is that I have a friend who is heavy into classical. I once did some fingerstyle with my left wrist in this "bent" position--when viewed from on front...the left arm is at angle of course, to the ground...descending from the right shoulder socket, and then again an angle, bent at the wrist...so that the entire forearm/wrist is at a say 130 degree angle, when viewed front-on.

    He said this is entirely "old school" and that this posture is probably what almost ended Aaron Shearer's career due to carpal tunnel stress injuries...Long story short...Shearer revised his technique, wrote a book on it...and now his approach is supposedly state of the art at Peabody Institute in Baltimore (and other places). My friend studies with a woman in New York who was at Peabody, she is about 35...Armenian, originally, and is supposedly a top 10 in the world guitarist. I can find her name if it is really important, but I don't have it at the moment.

    Acc'd to my friend, Segovia's technique has now been surpassed, and in his words, acc'd to his teacher, almost every top flight graduate from Peabody now surpasses Segovia's technique.

  25. #74

    User Info Menu

    For those not in the know, you really need to check out Kazahitu Yamashita

    Kazuhito Yamashita - Pictures at an exhibition (BETTER SOUND) - YouTube



    He is the greatest technical phenomenon to ever pick up the instrument. He turned the traditions of Spanish pedagogy on its head. Unfortunately, it was received with much "butt hurt" from folks who spent their life saying, "it has to be done this way!!!"

    We can only someday hope he shares his pedagogical insight with the world. That being said you still need to be from another planet to actually play like him...


    Seriously, look into the history behind the concert posted above. It's said that during intermission (this was at the Toronto guitar festival), it looked like people had died. The dynasties of the classical guitar world were shown to be wrong about much of what they thought, by a 23 year old shy Japanese boy. After the first song (something everyone there had played so much they hated it), it took a long time to calm people down after seeing him play the piece with a previously unknown virtuosity. Really an amazing story.

  26. #75

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblues
    Of course this was only my opinion.
    I understand, sorry!

    As you say, both instruments have their place and their own difficulties. Personally, I can't play piano at all. I can't co-ordinate my hands. The right hand is okay but the left hand can't play tunes at the same time - so for me piano is impossible :-)

    I find it quite easy to 'see' on both instruments. I can see the notes on a piano and also see the guitar fretboard in terms of positions, shapes and patterns.

  27. #76

    User Info Menu

    I'm curious as to what, exactly, you find objectionable. Is is the lack of any angle between the forearm, and wrist? The reason I ask is that I have a friend who is heavy into classical. I once did some fingerstyle with my left wrist in this "bent" position--when viewed from on front...the left arm is at angle of course, to the ground...descending from the right shoulder socket, and then again an angle, bent at the wrist...so that the entire forearm/wrist is at a say 130 degree angle, when viewed front-on.

    He said this is entirely "old school" and that this posture is probably what almost ended Aaron Shearer's career due to carpal tunnel stress injuries...Long story short...Shearer revised his technique, wrote a book on it...and now his approach is supposedly state of the art at Peabody Institute in Baltimore (and other places). My friend studies with a woman in New York who was at Peabody, she is about 35...Armenian, originally, and is supposedly a top 10 in the world guitarist. I can find her name if it is really important, but I don't have it at the moment.

    Acc'd to my friend, Segovia's technique has now been surpassed, and in his words, acc'd to his teacher, almost every top flight graduate from Peabody now surpasses Segovia's technique.
    I just see what I see and hear what I hear...

    I said he looks like imitating classical posture because he puts the stool under his left foot (or support I cannot see)... but the neck is still so low that he bends his hand out too much and lowers his left shoulder all the time...
    The guitar is obviously not fixed - he holds it with his hand..
    Besides he even plays thumb over the neck sometimes..

    His right hand is also very awkward... bent in.. almost lying on the deck... it gets the hand stuck (Pat Metheny plays like this but he is self-taught and does not play classical repertoire and I bet he would not recommend anyone copy it)..
    And he plays with the pick some times?

    I am not against it in general - up to him...
    But all this puts restriction to technical performance of classical repertoire...
    he manages to overcome some points because he just has good hands... I mean physically he has good hands to handle it all...
    But it is obvious to me that it's not enough in this case.
    His playing is very rough, neglegent to details.. more pop style (as well as mucic though)

    It does not have anything in common with classical... except the guitar.

  28. #77

    User Info Menu

    Acc'd to my friend, Segovia's technique has now been surpassed, and in his words, acc'd to his teacher, almost every top flight graduate from Peabody now surpasses Segovia's technique.
    I just don't get what 'surpassed' means here... more efficient (for what?), faster?

  29. #78

    User Info Menu

    I didn't quiz him in detail. I'm assuming he means playing cleaner, louder, faster....maybe more expressively.

    He is a "classical guitar absolutist", as in....this is THE best technique to play guitar....period, and that everyone who strives to play guitar well, should use classical technique.

    When I point to Kenny Burrell, classically trained, but whose jazz playing seems to be a conscious rejection of that approach--he has no answer. When I mention forum members, whose opinions I respect (e.g. Henry Robinett), who have said that various aspects of classical playing (the Segovia scales) don't work well for jazz, he has no answer...or to other players...Wes M. or George B., whose playing uses a lot of slides and "incorrect" fingering notions (acc'd to classical rules), he just says---well they'd be better if they did play classical style. And my answer is, maybe....but they'd probably sound a lot different.

    Sometimes technical debates are settled...e.g. the Fosbury Flop in high jump has been analyzed biomechanically and by physicists, and I'm pretty sure they've said it's better...I don't think there are any current world-class highjumpers who use the old technique (sidesaddle).

    But often, different technical approaches are not definitively better, and can dictate, or strongly affect how, and what we can play. (Also, the music we "pour into our brains" as we train (and I use that term advisedly, as I think becoming musical is a lot like becoming good, athletically...ultimately...it is central nervous system training and recruiting our physical bodies to do what we want) can affect our musical outlook....e.g. Django...from an early age, he was steeped in gypsy music, and so for him, it was natural and just "flowed like water". In a nub, that's why I think an overly technical approach to music can become the Sorcerer's Apprentice--if we're not careful.

    Lots of big issues here, and I don't mean to derail this thread...so back to the original question, what do you find worrisome about that player's technique?

    I'm just trying to understand what you said originally.

    PS: I responded to your latest post, before reading the one before, which set out your objections very well. Now I understand where you're coming from.
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 03-12-2018 at 04:40 PM.

  30. #79

    User Info Menu

    Clean loud fast. Who cares. Segovia was an artist :-)

    But yeah technical skill is at a high level now. It's certainly no bad thing.

  31. #80

    User Info Menu

    You're probably right about Segovia. I have a few CD's of his playing, and don't know enough about other players to make informed comparisons.

    But conversations with my friend (and looks at various classical gtr. sites) leads me to believe that there is a fair bit of polarity in the classical world, based on what might be termed "theological" debates--e.g. the bent wrist v. not; the use of the nails (Segovia and his followers) vs. fingertips only; the debate about adapting music written for other instruments/setups for classical guitar; strict interpretation v. interpretive freedom; cutaways v. not; the use of sound reinforcement/amplification v. none, etc.. As an outside, casual listener I'm tempted to say....none of this matters---play your music, and that should be the test. Maybe some of this comes from a more or less fixed performance repertoire.

    Henry Kissinger, before he became part of the foreign policy establishment, was an up and coming star in the academic world. As a college senior at Harvard, his senior thesis was 300-400 pg., which led the University to adopt a pg. limit on submitted senior theses (I think it's 200 pages.) He was also a really skilled bureaucratic infighter, and he had a telling comment about politics in academe to the effect that "the politics are so vicious....because the stakes are so small."
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 12-24-2016 at 04:19 PM.

  32. #81

    User Info Menu

    Can anyone today play even close to this? No matter on which instrument... I do not know anyone to be honest
    this kind of musicians just seem to be gone together with the music they played... they were the last who still had the living tradition inside



  33. #82

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Can anyone today play even close to this? No matter on which instrument... I do not know anyone to be honest this kind of musicians just seem to be gone together with the music they played... they were the last who still had the living tradition inside
    Yes. As was mentioned previously, Kazuhito Yamashita.

  34. #83

    User Info Menu

    Yes. As was mentioned previously, Kazuhito Yamashita.
    musically he sounds to me like an actor with perfect pronucnciation reading the part on the language he does not understand.

    (I found his playing the same Sor - Mozart piece that Segovia plays in the post above)

  35. #84

    User Info Menu

    Ha!

  36. #85

    User Info Menu

    Wow. It amazes me - butt hurt people. And actually really, really pisses me off to no end. Here's a remarkable guitarist. I'd never heard of him. And somebody has the f/ing arrogance, the temerity on this forum to criticize him?????? Jesus Christ. Unbelievable. Seriously. You f-ing come close. You don't have s**t to say.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  37. #86

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    musically he sounds to me like an actor with perfect pronucnciation reading the part on the language he does not understand.

    (I found his playing the same Sor - Mozart piece that Segovia plays in the post above)
    I agree completely. I didn't get it.

  38. #87

    User Info Menu

    I apologize. I just hate those who denigrate obviously artistry and harder working artists, especially from those who clearly aren't in the sane orbit. I think there are factors also in play with people like him who push the buttons of others, not necessarily you, but give the criticism a rest please.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  39. #88

    User Info Menu

    Here is the video of him playing:



    What I love most about his playing is not his unparalled technique or musicality but rather, his energy. I haven't seen or heard a classical guitarist display such strong passion or energy in their playing or at least comparatively speaking.. Incredible I say!

  40. #89

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Wow. It amazes me - butt hurt people. And actually really, really pisses me off to no end. Here's a remarkable guitarist. I'd never heard of him. And somebody has the f/ing arrogance, the temerity on this forum to criticize him?????? Jesus Christ. Unbelievable. Seriously. You f-ing come close. You don't have s**t to say.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Welcome to the internet

  41. #90

    User Info Menu

    Wow. It amazes me - butt hurt people. And actually really, really pisses me off to no end. Here's a remarkable guitarist. I'd never heard of him. And somebody has the f/ing arrogance, the temerity on this forum to criticize him?????? Jesus Christ. Unbelievable. Seriously. You f-ing come close. You don't have s**t to say.
    I apologize. I just hate those who denigrate obviously artistry and harder working artists, especially from those who clearly aren't in the sane orbit. I think there are factors also in play with people like him who push the buttons of others, not necessarily you, but give the criticism a rest please.
    Well...

    He performs publicly and I have the right to say my opinion.

    This opinion does not mean that he is a bad person, or whatever you might think I meant.

    I was not emotional, irritated, jealous, mocking or kidding.
    I was a bit sad though as I always feel when I see brilliant skills taht work against musical means as I hear it.

    It does not even mean arrogance to him.

    My remark did not concern his mental or physical abilities or personal qualities or whoever on this forum.

    I see that he is fantastic technician, but that he does not understand music, yes I can hear it. I know even why.

    All I did was expression of my feeling from his performance.

    Artistry and musicianship is not just being expressive, emotional, control dynamics and sound production process.
    This is being a music in sematical sense.


    Kazuhito Yamashita maybe hears his own logics in this music, but it is definitely not the logics or Sor or Mozart (how do I know? Because I live, eat and sleep with 'em that's how!)

    By the way Musorgsgsky I listened before - I had very weird feeling, it was very impressive, but very strange... but still convincing enough, like Dostoyevky's Idiot directed by Kurosawa...
    But Musorgsky is extremely unconventional composer - even for Russian... it gives probably wider fiel of interpretation in that sense (in a way he could be Japanese... weird but I could imagine this), and it is much wider than Mozart or Sor in that sense, they are much more in conventional language...

    And there's nothing bad or wrong that this language might escape this guitarist belonging to another culture...

    What is strange to me that there are hundrends of thpse who supposedly should have understanding and give positive estimations where I can clearely see it's wrong.

    Imagine that someone built your house and then in a week it begins to fall apart... you say: hey.. it's wrong. But everybody tells you: shshsh... you shut up... look how these guys work with a hammer, what a bump, what power... how can you critisize? You cannot even hit the nail... sit quite in this beautiful wallless roofless house... and don't you dare say anything

  42. #91

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    musically he sounds to me like an actor with perfect pronucnciation reading the part on the language he does not understand.

    (I found his playing the same Sor - Mozart piece that Segovia plays in the post above)
    Since (today) there is rarely improvisation in classical music, interpretation/expression of the written note is all that distinguishes artists of equal technical ability. Perhaps Yamashita's interpretation of that Mozart piece isn't to your liking, which is fine. Nevertheless, Segovia wasn't the be-all and end-all of classical guitarists. And although I am not qualified to say that one virtuoso is better than another (nor does such a "ranking" interest me one bit), in response to "Can anyone today play even close to this?", the answer is certainly yes.

  43. #92

    User Info Menu

    What I love most about his playing is not his unparalled technique or musicality but rather, his energy. I haven't seen or heard a classical guitarist display such strong passion or energy in their playing or at least comparatively speaking.. Incredible I say
    Yes, energy...

    But just energy is not enough...

    I don't understand - to me it is enough to play these two performances one by one - to see what this music ir...

    There can be many interpretations.. the thing is that Segovia does not do anything special - he just speaks very naturally. Very simple things...
    and Yamashota's is like trying to invent something or what?
    What for all this energy is here?


    Ok I wont say anything... same thing all the time.

    Sorry guys if hurt anyone

  44. #93

    User Info Menu

    this is quite a post..first check this Stanley Jordan piece..Horace silvers song for my father..now in the long "intro" I find John McLauglin flavors on some of the long lines..



    In regard to which is more difficult..at the top end..in terms of jazz today..I would ask Chick Corea and Bill Evans Ben Monder and Lee Ritenour ..

    but way before the top end gets addressed..lets go to day one..you have two new students both have not played one note on piano or guitar:

    You the teacher are going to explain how to form a triad starting on middle C..using only verbal instructions-

    on the piano..to form a C major triad..you are going to press down on the notes C E and G..using only the white keys-these are every other white key..so pressing down of the C note..skip a white key - that is the E note-skip another white - key and that is the G note..now press down all three at the same time and that is the C major triad.

    on the guitar: OK due to how the guitar fretboard is laid out..we have to begin an octave lower than middle C..so instead of the C note being on the first fret second string it will now be on the third fret fifth string..or the A string..

    At this point the guitar student is planning to escape..the amount of questions is overflowing and having no reference point at all to hold on to..even the ability to ask a proper question is a challenge..now should the explanation of forming a C major triad continue..explaining an "Open" string may be the over the edge push needed to end a budding musicians dream

    keep in mind..both students have yet to play one note on the instruments..so forming the chord on the piano will just be to press with very little pressure to hear the result..the guitar will require quite a bit more adjusting as the pressure and finger position are going to be very foreign to the student..not to mention the need to use both hands and pick only three strings..and again the method of a pick or finger style comes into play..

    so in just a 30 min lesson..the piano student could be taught the C major scale and how to form the triads in the scale..the guitar student may need hours or even several days before the basic C triad is played with accuracy..ahh yes and the finger tip pain..
    Last edited by wolflen; 12-24-2016 at 05:13 PM.

  45. #94

    User Info Menu

    Q: How many guitarists does it take to change a light bulb?
    A: Twenty. One to change the bulb and nineteen to say, "Not bad, but I could've done better"

    Fortunately audiences usually consist of non-musician that have no clue as to what the logic of Mozart is

  46. #95

    User Info Menu

    That SJ vid with him playing piano with his left hand and guitar with his right shows /proves how weakly a guitar comes across when played like that and when having to compete with and /compared to a piano.

    Like SJ and Lenny Breau and others, once these guitar players add that chord technique, their music most often has no
    'B***s.' ...( ' cojones ' ) .........Yes they are to be commended for the guitar work they feel they must do.

    At some point though, some of us guitarists have to be honest and just admit that we are frustrated piano players. You wouldn't see Bill Evans or Chick Corea spend that ( practice ) time adding a guitar to his music by tapping notes on a guitar with his right hand, while playing chords with his left. .
    Neither pianist, nor any other, has ever had to- -they have their complete orchestra right at their fingertips.

    Sorry but especially at a high level - - guitar vs piano, lifetime effort vs. lifetime results, only one instrument wins, and it's not the one with six strings.

    MHO, of course.

  47. #96

    User Info Menu

    I think they're both pretty damned difficult, and wouldn't denigrate virtuosos on either. I definitely cotton to guitar and that's where my practice time goes; other instruments I play aren't so much for gigs but rather to round out information in my head -- it's why I learnt piano, to get a better grip on polyphony and independent hands, for instance.

    Is one instrument better than the other? Meh, depends on the context. Piano's great for getting the orchestral vibe, but not so hot at bending up to a blue note en staccato in a slow blues.

  48. #97

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Yes, energy...

    But just energy is not enough...

    I don't understand - to me it is enough to play these two performances one by one - to see what this music ir...

    There can be many interpretations.. the thing is that Segovia does not do anything special - he just speaks very naturally. Very simple things...
    and Yamashota's is like trying to invent something or what?
    What for all this energy is here?


    Ok I wont say anything... same thing all the time.

    Sorry guys if hurt anyone
    Nah man its cool, I think I understand what you're saying. Actually if I had a choice to listen to either Segovia's or Yamashita's interpretation of the piece throughout the whole day I would choose Segovia's version. Its just more listenable you know?

    If I want to get my socks blown off (which ain't often!) or get inspired I would listen to Yamashita's version. I don't listen to much classical music though so my opinion may not weigh much.. whatever!
    Last edited by jazznylon; 12-25-2016 at 07:26 AM.

  49. #98

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Well...

    He performs publicly and I have the right to say my opinion.

    This opinion does not mean that he is a bad person, or whatever you might think I meant.

    I was not emotional, irritated, jealous, mocking or kidding.
    I was a bit sad though as I always feel when I see brilliant skills taht work against musical means as I hear it.

    It does not even mean arrogance to him.

    My remark did not concern his mental or physical abilities or personal qualities or whoever on this forum.

    I see that he is fantastic technician, but that he does not understand music, yes I can hear it. I know even why.

    All I did was expression of my feeling from his performance.

    Artistry and musicianship is not just being expressive, emotional, control dynamics and sound production process.
    This is being a music in sematical sense.


    Kazuhito Yamashita maybe hears his own logics in this music, but it is definitely not the logics or Sor or Mozart (how do I know? Because I live, eat and sleep with 'em that's how!)

    By the way Musorgsgsky I listened before - I had very weird feeling, it was very impressive, but very strange... but still convincing enough, like Dostoyevky's Idiot directed by Kurosawa...
    But Musorgsky is extremely unconventional composer - even for Russian... it gives probably wider fiel of interpretation in that sense (in a way he could be Japanese... weird but I could imagine this), and it is much wider than Mozart or Sor in that sense, they are much more in conventional language...

    And there's nothing bad or wrong that this language might escape this guitarist belonging to another culture...

    What is strange to me that there are hundrends of thpse who supposedly should have understanding and give positive estimations where I can clearely see it's wrong.

    Imagine that someone built your house and then in a week it begins to fall apart... you say: hey.. it's wrong. But everybody tells you: shshsh... you shut up... look how these guys work with a hammer, what a bump, what power... how can you critisize? You cannot even hit the nail... sit quite in this beautiful wallless roofless house... and don't you dare say anything
    Artists, professionals or just hobbiests, need to have well honed critical skills if they're going to be worth much. Self critical skills first and foremost. Not everyone's going to like everything. I personally like free jazz and am a big Cecil Taylor fan but I consider much of what I hear to be garbage even if it's being done by professionals with big careers playing expensive instruments. And I'm not really on board with Miles' 80s stuff or Coltrane's Love Supreme. But that's just me. It doesn't mean that overall I don't love their music.

    Visual artists who went through the 1970s NYC conceptual trenches (even as Buck Privates that got killed in action) were forced by both academia and the business to be uncompromisingly critical and imo today's jazz musician/student could take a lesson from this. Being an artist is on some level all about being critical. When a good musician/artist is listening to music, even their own while they're playing, they are making constant critical judgments.

    I've got a critic friend (an older dude who'd seen Coltrane and Monk among many) who like a lot of guys like that is not hugely into jazz guitar. We were listening once to some Kenny Burrell and he said "Yeah...good old reliable Kenny Burrell." Kind of a back handed compliment but I get his point. Joe Pass prompted him to say "Jeez...great player but let's make some coffee. I'm falling asleep." Ella Fitzgerald brought this comment. "She always sounds like she has no idea what the lyrics mean." Right, but she was about things beyond just "telling a story". Art Tatum? "I love him but a little too much ornamentation for my taste." he said. He felt that Coltrane's tone and soloing could be "hectoring". And my friend was not being mean spirited, he's just got very high standards and will be the first to laud and applaud the above artists.

    There's a famous scene in a sixties Dylan documentary where he basically "pushes Donovan's face in it". Donovan at that time was sort of a shameless Dylan clone complete with the corduroy hat and a song with the word "wind" in the title. But Donovan apparently learned from the experience, found his own voice and went on to make some great music.

    Music can be a lot like sports where the opposing team will heckle the batter with barbs like "Easy out. Easy out." Or those ridiculous scenes from British Parliament where the opposition gets derisive and aggressive. Herschel Evans used to tease Lester Young and say "Man, you've got an alto tone. You better start playing alto!" Some young cats in the band with Roy Eldridge were giving him a hard time about not being a great reader. He picked his horn up and held it saying "Look. I'm an artist. I express myself with this thing." If a musician can't take this kind of stuff they'll never make it as an Artist.
    Last edited by mrcee; 12-26-2016 at 12:10 PM.

  50. #99

    User Info Menu

    Agree with a lot of the preceding post.

    The truth is art is hard, but doing good art, and getting public acclaim (and critical acclaim) is a trifecta that not many win.

    Was listening to "Jordu" yesterday by Clifford B. (my favorite trumpeter). Checked out the tune's writer. It was Duke Jordan...went to a few other YT tunes by him, and liked what I heard. Curious, looked him up in "The Rough Guide to Jazz" (1998 ed.). Not even mentioned...zilch... no entry. Wikipedia lists a lot of promising-looking albums...a bunch on Blue Note. Those are a good bet, in my book. Then read that he spent a fair bit of time driving a cab in NY. Art life is hard.

    On the other hand, I don't like much Woody Allen, BUT he has one movie scene that captures the absurdity of the lay expert (and critic): He has some know-it-all in a movie line (queue) discoursing on Truffaut...who is standing in front of the know-it-all in line with a quizzical expression.

    But we're asked to spend our money, and pay attention to scores of artists...some good, some not so good, some popular, some obscure, and all possible permutations of the foregoing. Can't give everyone equal time/support. On some level, we can't avoid being critics.

    Happy Holidays to all.
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 12-25-2016 at 10:35 AM.

  51. #100

    User Info Menu

    I hear you on the lay critic. I was talking to a guy the other day who was a big Art Tatum fanatic but had never heard of Bud Powell or Earl Hines. He went on to go on and on about Ray Noble but didn't know that he wrote Cherokee. Or had even heard of the tune.