Guitar vs Piano - No Contest (Both Great)

[Doctor Jeff]

I can't resist throwing this out there. We all agree Tatum had phenomenal technique and speed, possibly the best who's ever played jazz, anyway.

I wonder, when he was playing and improvising, in a cutting contest, for instance, was he really generating brand new lines out of nothing, or was he playing back snippets of things he had memorized? Pulling out his old bag of tricks, in other words.

I haven't listened to him enough to critique his style in detail. And of course that's not to detract from his incredible playing. But a long time ago a friend was telling me how much more elevated Keith Jarrett was than Tatum, because he brought out new musical ideas right at the moment, whereas Tatum was just playing back riffs he had played a million times.

I don't think this is really fair, because Jarrett, like all improvisers, has a certain language he resorts to. Tatum's musical vocabulary was extraordinary within the context of ragtime and early jazz and even classical.

Anyway, just curious what people think.

[pingu]

guitar can do the funky percussive thing
(like Nile Rogers thing) ....

which keyboards cant do

whatevs .... they're different
its not a competition

[grahambop]

You can carry your own guitar to the gig. Pianists have to play whatever piece of junk is there waiting for them.

And you can tune a guitar in about 30 seconds.

[wintermoon]

"just remember that it takes two good guitar players to sound like one very ordinary piano player"

-Barney Kessel

[BigDee62]

Piano is my first instrument. CM is difficult on guitar and very natural on piano. But, guitar can produce singing melodic lines the piano cannot. Apples and oranges.

Compare Tatum to Django - both were virtuosos despite "flawed" technique.

[christianm77]

I read that as Channing Tatum... :-(

The tension here is between the intrument and the player. A lot of the time we will book a musician for what they play - bass, sax, drums etc... I kind of feel all things being equal than guitar and piano are on a level footing. Both have strengths and weaknesses...

But if judge the players beyond the instrument, then the guitar, is I am afraid poorly represented. Being unsentimental guitarists tend to be pretty shaky musicians because we tend to come from the rock background. Not that it's easy to play rock well (and I love great rock guitar) but relatively few of the skills are transferrable - even the technique needed to get a good jazz sound is different.

A pianist comes from the classical background, typically, which is great preparation in terms of musicianship and technique.

Without wanting to be rude, the average pianist swings more, know more tunes, has better ears, can sightread MUCH better and has a stronger rooting in the tradition than the average guitar player. This is true IMO even when you get up to the professional level.

If I were a band leader at least some of these things would be very important to me.

But in my experience, guitarists who can swing, have good ears, know lots of tunes, sightread well and have a strong rooting in the tradition are working ALL THE TIME.

[bako]

Christian,

On that point:

I remember as a young child attending a few weddings, the bands were vocals, piano, bass, drums and one or two horns.
The music played was standards and a wide variety of ballroom and ethnic dance styles.
Somewhere backstage would be stashed a long haired guitarist in a tuxedo that would be brought out once each set
to cover an extended rock and roll medley. When finished, the guitarist would disappear until a similar moment on the
next set. The band needed assistance to convincingly cover rock and roll but the specialist guitarist (or at least implied by this scenario) was ill prepared or not trusted to cover the rest of the band book. I have no doubt that there were very capable jazz guitarists playing wedding dance bands somewhere, but it took awhile for bands to be able to cover the increasing emergence of rock music in the club date circuit that was dominated by players of an older generation.
Of course over a relatively short time, a generation of young guitarists emerged that could cover all the styles as well as the older players improving their rock chops.

[christianm77]

Haha too true :-)

Sure and they are a lot of tremendously versatile players on shows etc.

But here's the thing - most of the guitarists I know who are working professionally are doing top 40 pop cover type gigs, touring with artists, sessions, shows, rat pack stuff etc. If they play jazz rep it will be from pads, reading...

They tend be a bit wistful about not playing enough jazz, lose their standards repertoire and changes playing chops over time, and so on.

There's a required effort for these pros to play jazz gigs and retain jazz chops.... It's hard for the guitarists to keep up, so there is a knock on effect.

A lot of guitarists I know avoid the standards repertoire and focus on originals and fusion stuff. So they tend to play pop gigs for $$$ and their own straight eights stuff for .. less $$$...

In any case, I am really talking about the skill set that allows a guitar player to carry their weight in a modern jazz ensemble as well as pianist. In many ways the deck is stacked against us, but I'm not convinced it is down to the instrument.

(In early jazz/swing guitar is at least on equal terms to piano because the rhythm guitar is pretty important, so that doesn't really count. But you do get to play changes and standards on a regular basis, so it's better for keeping your straightahead chops, I think.)

[2bornot2bop]

As a "piano player", who enjoys the study of guitar too, it's very clear from the comments on these occasional piano vs. guitar threads that continually appear, they're filled with bias and closed minds, from those who simply don't know both instruments enough to comment. Comparing both instruments simply because they can each play chords with ease creates for a false narrative and comparison, imo.

To suggest the piano can more easily do polychords "so what" displays personal ignorance of the piano as an instrument. And that's the issue with most guitarists that comment on these repeated piano vs. guitar threads...they've by and large zero frame of reference for the piano as an instrument, or personal hands on experience. And that knowledge, or lack of knowledge, does not define piano, much less jazz piano.

I'd not expect to find many jazz pianists in Omaha, much less those that also tune their piano. But what's the point...one doesn't need to tune an instrument to play it well. It's not a guitar. It's a piano. How many guitarists don't do their own setups and rather pay a luthier? Many, I'd imagine.

These contest threads serve nothing other than to create a means for debate on a guitar forum.

My .02

[christianm77]

TBH I think the whole thing was somewhat tongue in cheek.

My takeaway is that if I was half the musician my pianist friends are I'd be happy. I find listening to piano enormously inspiring, as I do any instrument played well. But the guitar is the guitar. It has its own character.

[drbhrb]

guitar can do the funky percussive thing
(like Nile Rogers thing) ....

which keyboards cant do

whatevs .... they're different
its not a competition

Clavinova is in the ballpark. And synths are much more useful on keyboard than guitar IMO



I'm a proud guitar player but all this putting down of piano players reeks of some kind of inferiority complex.

[Cunamara]

Together? I generally lay out if there's a pianist. Ideally I can lay right out of the set and sit in the audience. I find most pianists simply don't know how to leave enough room for bass, drums or horns let alone another chording instrument. There are only a couple of pianists I've been able to play with successfully. If I am on the bandstand with a pianist I am usually not comping at all; the typical voicing structure of chords on the instruments is too different and tends to clash.

As for one rather than the other, well I think that the guitar allows a lot more breathing room in the music than most pianists leave. But if the combo is, say, with bass and drums the piano is often a lot more interesting. Listen to Bill Evans with Scott Lafaro (Sunday at the Village Vanguard); but then listen to Jim Hall with Terry Clark and Don Thompson and there is no lack of interest there.

[gator811]

I have the 3 steps to silence rule when comping/playing with a piano player. This has come about despite having many conversations with the guys I have played with over the years - 9 times out of ten even if you discuss 'playing less' they cant help themselves...I start the 3 steps at the point when comping together no longer becomes viable - i.e piano become "CEO".

1/ Fill .....this can only happen in the melody with a horn player or singer if the pianist can rein in their right hand - and usually goes through a process of trading fills until the pianist is filling every gap. Onto step 2

2/ Wes - On some tunes I take a leaf out of Wes' book and riff on guide tones or octaves keeping the rhythmic material low in volume, short and percussive so as to blend with the snare drum , predictable but as groovy as possible. Its taken me a bit of practice to get this right. However it can all become very unstuck if the PP decides to get LH heavy or play around the beat too much- Jarretesque as opposed to Wynton Kelly perhaps.Onto step 3.

3/ Freddie. Turn right down as in no p/u at all and chomp. You'll get smiles from the bass player and drummer if you do this at the right time on the right feel. It works ok on a big archtop but I guess this step on a solid body could be considered too desperate.

Silence.....this may entail some type of miming or other "Yes I'm still working " type gesture....such as fiddling with your amp or adjusting spectacles.

Exceptions....conditional. In my book in a Bossa Nova the guitar is king. If I start playing a bossa groove or samba and the pianist starts schlepping all over it then I'm instantly looking for support from the rest of the band..................

but then again for some PP's there is only one condition....piano = CEO

[drbhrb]

Man, you guys need to play with some better pianists.

It is a challenge - especially when you don't have a report with the pianist yet. But playing with pianists is one of my favorite configurations.

[Nate Miller]

I would agree. I've played with piano players and B3 players all my life. I had a lot of great friends who were piano players and being friends, we naturally played together.

it definitely is a lot of fun to play with a piano player.


I have a good number of guitar piano combos in my record collection too...Al Haig and Jimmy Raney, George Benson and Lonnie Smith, Joe Pass and Oscar Petersen, Jimmy Smith and Kenny Burrell

..so this is sort of like some of those other crazy ideas that I come across sometimes here. You know, crazy ideas like "ii-Vs are fundamental to jazz", or "you have to know the modes of melodic minor"

piano players and guitar players play together all the time

[Boston Joe]

I play with a pianist. It gets a little crowded sometimes, and I'll usually back off when it does, but what we try to do is alternate the soloists we comp behind. So if he takes the first soloist, I'll lay out for the first chorus, usually, then I'll do little fills, and when the next soloist comes up we do the reverse. And obviously, he comps behind me, and I comp behind him.

I like having someone comp behind me when I play. When I'm the only chordal instrument, it feels kind of empty when I solo.

[Cunamara]

If you want to hear guitar and piano work really well together, check out Gene Bertoncini with Michael Moore on bass and Roger (?) Kellaway on piano. It sounds like three guys with one brain at times.

[999369]

combo amp this ~~~

Fender BassMan 4X10"

[Greentone]

Cunamara,

+1 on Bertoncini, Kellaway, and Moore. I think, though, that _any_ instrumentalist could profitably play with Roger Kellaway. That guy really does merit the designation "genius", IMO. He makes everybody sound fabulous.

Gene Bertoncini is a guitarist's guitarist, too. That cat can play everything from Bach to Byrd and sound, not just convincing, but prodigious.

The interplay between Kellaway and Bertoncini is often as good as, say, between Jim Hall and Bill Evans...or between Joe Pass and Herb Ellis.

[Chazmo]

I have played in a guitar, piano, bass trio for years and I'm lucky the current pianist and I give each other lots of space. I have worked with heavy handed pianists though. When I play with an "all ten fingers" kind of guy, I tend to just comp with the middle strings--D, G, and B. That midrange on the guitar seems to fit in well with piano. If that's even too much, I do one or two string voicing, a la Freddie Green, to keep things from getting muddy. Maybe just the 3rd and 7th of the chord or just the root to keep the rhythm going since we don't have a drummer. I like Boston Joe's solution, but I'm not sure we're that organized!

I really like working with a pianist because I also sing and I can just lay out sometimes and concentrate on vocals while he comps. A little emptiness on occasion gives the music a nice contrast instead of going full tilt boogie all the time.

[stoneground]

Together? I generally lay out if there's a pianist. Ideally I can lay right out of the set and sit in the audience. I find most pianists simply don't know how to leave enough room for bass, drums or horns let alone another chording instrument. There are only a couple of pianists I've been able to play with successfully. If I am on the bandstand with a pianist I am usually not comping at all; the typical voicing structure of chords on the instruments is too different and tends to clash.

As for one rather than the other, well I think that the guitar allows a lot more breathing room in the music than most pianists leave. But if the combo is, say, with bass and drums the piano is often a lot more interesting. Listen to Bill Evans with Scott Lafaro (Sunday at the Village Vanguard); but then listen to Jim Hall with Terry Clark and Don Thompson and there is no lack of interest there.

This is one of the most interesting topics I have come across in the "gear" thread! I totally agree with you that part of the problem is to do with incompatible voicing structures of the two instruments. In my experience many pianists are too busy with their accompaniment and the temptation to include every possible altered note in a chord is often too much for them to resist simply because it is relatively easy on that instrument. Whilst guitarists often feel redundant when there is a pianist present I have also noted that some sax players and vocalists often prefer the sparser accompaniment of a guitar. I certainly feel that a minimal accompaniment gives a soloist more freedom; when all the notes of the harmony are explicitly laid down by the piano then there is not much room for movement.

One of my pianist friends, who is a much more accomplished student of harmony than I is very aware of the above but we still find it difficult after years of playing together to avoid falling onto the trap of getting in each others' way.

I also think that there is something about the tonal quality of an acoustic piano that contributes to the problem and which can generate a percussive, muddy quality to the sound that the guitar can't compete with. Organ and guitar combos generally worked well apart from the obvious advantage of not having to pay a bass player. Electric pianos and keyboard synth sounds are often much more accommodating to a guitar. A good example that comes to mind is the 'Reunion" album with Burton, Metheny and others. In this line-up the guitar, piano and vibes all co-exist and fully compliment each other. This may well be due to consummate musicianship as much as tonal considerations. There is also the fact that they aren't constantly bashing out predictable jazz chords with heavily altered harmony. There is a more open, atmospheric approach giving lots of room for the soloist.