The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit
    Let's re-frame the question: why are lesser forms so popular?

    Today, as I post, this video shows 958,785,774 views. There are other versions with additional views:



    I don't have or watch Television and instinctively keep a safe distance from current 'pop' culture.

    "The end is nigh," so while we can, let us enjoy the luxury of debating the unpopularity of Jazz.
    A quick search found one plausible explanation for the current popularity of Lil Pump.
    ESKETIT: A Cultural Analysis of Lil Pump | The Prolongation of Work • F17.1
    In a nutshell, there’s a large segment of music consumers that want mindless music that seems rebellious. That segment seems pretty much a lost cause for jazz. It would be more productive to talk about some other segment where jazz seems to be less popular than one might expect.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #227

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    Why is this question relevant or even interesting in the jazz context?


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  4. #228

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    More than a billion views for 'Gucci Gang.'

    Remember when Dali was surreal?

    Hello Henry Robinett!

  5. #229

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    I'm coming to this thread late, but my take is that jazz is not popular because it appeals only to musicians and not the public in general. A lot of people (myself included) like to leave a concert or venue whistling or humming something that was played during the evening. You can't do that with 50 choruses of improvisation over a 'Stella'. People like melodies - jazz has no melody to speak of that I'm aware of. That's why I'd rather stick to chord melody stuff to both listen to and play - it makes sense and there's a nice melody. Get too far away from the melody and you've lost me.

    Afterthought: I'd be willing to bet that not even one person in 500 of the general public would have heard of 90% of the guitarists that are discussed on this forum........and, I seem to recall recently reading that the guitar is rated as a secondary instrument in real jazz circles - horns and piano are generally king.

  6. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
    I'm coming to this thread late, but my take is that jazz is not popular because it appeals only to musicians and not the public in general. A lot of people (myself included) like to leave a concert or venue whistling or humming something that was played during the evening. You can't do that with 50 choruses of improvisation over a 'Stella'. People like melodies - jazz has no melody to speak of that I'm aware of. That's why I'd rather stick to chord melody stuff to both listen to and play - it makes sense and there's a nice melody. Get too far away from the melody and you've lost me.
    Jazz has no melody to speak of?????

    Sorry, but the art of improvisation is to make one's own melodies and not mindless 'unconnected' noodling.

  7. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Jazz has no melody to speak of?????

    Sorry, but the art of improvisation is to make one's own melodies and not mindless 'unconnected' noodling.
    Maybe I should have said "memorable" melody that stays with the listener after the tune is over. I don't hear that in jazz and I don't think the players care whether the audience remembers carry anything away with them or not. Yes, they may remember the melody to "Georgia" or "Laura" but they will not remember much, if any, that came after the head. In away, I think it's a very selfish type of music where one is playing for him/herself and not the general audience which, to me, is the point. Of course, at a jazz festival or club I guess that's to be expected but for the general public, it's over their heads. Besides, it's hard to dance to since the 30s and 40s. I've played in dance bands pretty much my entire career except to forays into theater - people go out to drink and dance, in my experience. I've never played a a purely 'listening' venue in 50 years of doing this - maybe NYC or LA but certainly not in podunk SW Florida.

  8. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit




    Wow - -and to think had that vid not been posted here, I'd have never seen that masterpiece.


  9. #233

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    There is a popularity problem with smooth jazz which I will explain in the second part of this post
    I have this Spotify playlist for electric Guitar Smooth Jazz. Give it a listen and follwo:
    Smooth Jazz Electric Guitar Instrumentals ?? on Spotify
    Smooth Jazz Electric Guitar Instrumentals ?? on Spotify
    Anyway, at the time of writing it has 60 followers. I have tried promoting it and I have a hard time getting followers for it. It is funny, for example, I tried to run sponsored ads for it on Facebook, and when creating the Ad, you can mention "to the followers" of what artist you want to target. I wrote "Norman Brown" which is charting high on the Smooth Jazz charts. Well it turns out that facebook doesn't let you target his follower because he does not have 1 million followers. In other words, these days unless you have 1 million followers you don't really count!! Most Smooth Jazz artists that I know of and are popular in the charts don't have such numbers.
    Attached Images Attached Images Why Isn't Jazz Popular?-71100366_3080712218622377_2113965186351104000_o-jpg 

  10. #234

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    Why Isn't Jazz Popular?

    It's extremely popular... amongst those who like it.

    Thank god it's not 'popular'.

  11. #235

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    In my case, I was not a fan of jazz in my youth because it wasn’t easily found on the radio, and none of my friends listened to it. Most young people are nothing more than lemmings, and don’t want to give the appearance of being different because it may cost them socially. It wasn’t until I stopped worrying about what others thought, combined with greater access to a variety of music online, that I discovered and learned to appreciate jazz. Our likes and dislikes are largely shaped during our youth, so if jazz is to become more popular in any meaningful way, our youth need to be exposed more to jazz music in a socially acceptable way, and with decreased complexity. Kids don’t have a well developed, or appreciation for, complex harmonies or tonality, so at least one potential limiting factor is the lack of easily accessible harmony with much of the music we call jazz.

  12. #236

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    I just came back from NYC, where I attended shows at Small's, Mezzrow and the Blue Note. All packed. I'm not sure how many in the audience were visiting NYC, but, certainly, quite a few. Why so full? I attribute to the quality of the music. //Small's, for example, has a capacity (sign on the door) of 72. You can hear, from a few feet away, some of the best musicians in the world in a relaxed setting, any night of the week. The music is so good that you don't have to be a jazz fan to appreciate it. This is not intermediate level players hacking their way through the real book. Then, there's the Blue Note. Big room. Expensive. A 52 show residency by Robert Glasper. I went on a Wednesday evening and it was packed. I read that it would be a piano trio, but there was a fourth -- who played computer and maybe some other devices I couldn't see. The show had very little in common with classic piano trio jazz. There were a few snippets of jazz tunes, including maybe 20 seconds of classic jazz piano on Body and Soul. Maybe just to prove that he could do it, which he clearly could. There was a barely recognizable reworking of Stella. //But, mostly it was texture and groove. Mostly funk, just a little swing. Very little demarcation between tunes. Mostly, without recognizable classic form with intro, headin, solos, head out, coda. It may have all been completely free form -- it seemed like it - I wouldn't know what to expect if I went on a second night. So, the thought I had was that, just maybe, what isn't so popular is the original historical form, that is, standards played the usual way, no matter how skillfully (obviously, with some exceptions at the high end of skill and fame). //It certainly looked liked Robert Glasper was popular, if the Blue Note gave him 52 shows in a row. But, what he is doing is not the classic piano trio --even though he's perfectly capable of it. Maybe , he's moving the music forward, by focusing on different grooves, not focusing on ii V harmony, using more vamps (e.g. 4 chords), employing sound effects and spoken word recordings, making the music seem like (or be) stream of consciousness and maybe making the whole show, including the heads, all be arranged on the spot. //Maybe, you can't expect an 80 year old form (or 50) to be much more popular than a 95 year old form. So, that bop is reaching a maturity point akin to trad jazz.BTW, I liked it a lot. I found it accessible even though it was unfamiliar. My wife, who likes some jazz styles and not all, loved it.

  13. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Jazz has no melody to speak of????? Sorry, but the art of improvisation is to make one's own melodies and not mindless 'unconnected' noodling.
    We should all be trying to make our own melodies if we are playing primarily for our own satisfaction, but if the melodies we are creating are not easily understood it is unlikely that a large percentage of the population will appreciate those melodies. The reality is that most people don’t want to work hard at understanding music. Music, for most, is an escape. It is a means of relieving stress, and as such is typically more appreciated by the masses when it is relatively simple.

  14. #238
    "Kids don’t have a well developed, or appreciation for, complex harmonies or tonality..."
    Beg to differ. I know a jazz ensemble made up entirely of 11-year-olds that can blow the doors of any rock band, youth or adult. They may be the exception in that not many of their classmates have even heard of 'Island Birdie' or 'Red Clay' but they aren't all mutant Mozarts either.

  15. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBrooklyn
    "Kids don’t have a well developed, or appreciation for, complex harmonies or tonality..." Beg to differ. I know a jazz ensemble made up entirely of 11-year-olds that can blow the doors of any rock band, youth or adult. They may be the exception in that not many of their classmates have even heard of 'Island Birdie' or 'Red Clay' but they aren't all mutant Mozarts either.
    There are exceptions to every rule, but for every 11 year old that can appreciate Trane and Mingus I’ll show you 1000 that will never be able to, or never want to appreciate anything more complex than Taylor Swift, and that’s okay as there is value in all types of music.

  16. #240

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    Here's why:

    DB


  17. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBrooklyn
    "Kids don’t have a well developed, or appreciation for, complex harmonies or tonality..."
    Beg to differ. I know a jazz ensemble made up entirely of 11-year-olds that can blow the doors of any rock band, youth or adult. They may be the exception in that not many of their classmates have even heard of 'Island Birdie' or 'Red Clay' but they aren't all mutant Mozarts either.
    That quoted statement perhaps puts the cart before the horse. What do we expose children to? Low information music mostly....

    Edwin Gordon (the audiation guy) believed that we should expose young children to a wide variety of tonalities and modalities.

    Most typical children’s music in the Western world are very limited in terms of tonality.

    It seems tastes or at least deep familiarity in such things are formed very early for most people, around the same as children acquire language.

    OTOH my daughter naturally seems obsessed with Peppa pig and that’s the way it is haha
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-17-2019 at 08:50 AM.

  18. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
    Maybe I should have said "memorable" melody that stays with the listener after the tune is over. I don't hear that in jazz and I don't think the players care whether the audience remembers carry anything away with them or not. Yes, they may remember the melody to "Georgia" or "Laura" but they will not remember much, if any, that came after the head. In away, I think it's a very selfish type of music where one is playing for him/herself and not the general audience which, to me, is the point. Of course, at a jazz festival or club I guess that's to be expected but for the general public, it's over their heads. Besides, it's hard to dance to since the 30s and 40s. I've played in dance bands pretty much my entire career except to forays into theater - people go out to drink and dance, in my experience. I've never played a a purely 'listening' venue in 50 years of doing this - maybe NYC or LA but certainly not in podunk SW Florida.
    All music is based on singing and dancing and it’s easy to forget that.

    And all music seems to have a natural journey from being dance music to being art music. By the time of Bach the many of the dance forms he wrote in were passing out of the popular culture of the time.... We have seen the same thing happening to rock - probably to hiphop and EDM for all I know.

    In the case of jazz I think it’s unfair to tar all recent jazz with the same brush. I think it’s perfectly possible to make melodic music that grooves and doesn’t sound like it comes from the 1940s (mind you they’d probably moan that it isn’t jazz so you can’t win be definition.) what are the young generation doing if not that?

  19. #243

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    "Mutant Mozart"

    I like that!

  20. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    Here's why:

    DB

    Made me laugh out loud! Thank you!

  21. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That quoted statement perhaps puts the cart before the horse. What do we expose children to? Low information music mostly....

    Edwin Gordon (the audiation guy) believed that we should expose young children to a wide variety of tonalities and modalities.

    Most typical children’s music in the Western world are very limited in terms of tonality.

    It seems tastes or at least deep familiarity in such things are formed very early for most people, around the same as children acquire language.

    OTOH my daughter naturally seems obsessed with Peppa pig and that’s the way it is haha
    Our children grew up on a super-eclectic audio diet of everything from Bach to Bartok, Scarlatti to Stravinsky, Mahler, Wagner, Rimski-Korsakov, Shostakovitch, Prokofiev, Hendrix, Joplin, P-Funk, Beatles/Stones/Who/Cream/Allman Brothers; Pass/Brubek/Stitt/Saunders/Miles; and Zappa; in utero and beyond. And yet, they grew into functional adults. Go figure.

  22. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokinguit
    Why jazz is not popular? I think that has to do with jazz having difficulty defining itself. It's cool to check out and incorporate other styles, but don't forget your roots. Many artists water down the spirit of jazz so much that you are left wondering how to define what they are trying to do: is this rock, R & B, Indie, hip hop and so on? So this article is misleading.
    J

    Jazz is popular, it's just that it's now splintered into many "forms". The aggregate of these forms makes "Jazz" or music that features "improvisation" over its song forms is a contender in the "popular music" arena.

  23. #247

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    I've been thinking about this for over 45 years and watching this thread for somewhat less time. I'd like to take a shot.

    Thing is, the average guy doesn't listen to music like some of the posts imply. Music isn't about listening in the popular music world. It's about joining a club. One with spiritual, political, economic, verbal, gastronomic and fashion rules. This is why, for EG, you don't see a lot of cowboy boots and stetsons at the Met.

    Never made sense to me that you have to put on a costume to enjoy a particular kind of music.

    So why isn't Jazz more popular? The jazz culture isn't as popular as it once was. It's nothing new, but seems like there's a lot more people who are more interested in looking toned and fit than just about anything else these days. Jazz culture is more about the life of the mind than the life of the body.

    I think it's been like this since I first started trying to figure out how to make a living playing jazz.

  24. #248

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  25. #249

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    I think that every song that has no lyrics can't become very popular...it's limited right away.

  26. #250

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo