Why Isn't Jazz Popular?

[citizenk74]

Great post!

BTW, many histories of early bop make it clear that a lot of the characteristics of bop - burn tempos, unusual melodies as contrafacta, difficult keys, etc. were a deliberate attempt to limit the musical pool and keep the "average" swing musicians off the jam session bandstand.

Yes I read somewhere that the Boppers "had quasi-masonic [i.e. initiatory] aspirations..." in so many words, you had to be initiated into the neo major and minor arcana. Historically , this seems un-deniable, as well a understandable to a degree. The founders of Bop wanted their own music, played on their own terms. Bop was after-hours music for musicians who toiled in the ranks for scale or less. Be-Bop offered an autonomy of sorts, a hitherto unknown degree of artistic autonomy. Accompanied by a sense of fraternal solidarity in a decidedly hostile world.

[sgcim]

Eh, I think it’s more complicated now. If I think the business has changed so much. If the second heyday of old school film scoring with orchestra could be said to have run from Star Wars into the early 00’s, today’s environment is much more technological.

According to Guthrie Govan, Hans Zimmer told him that his special niche was being able to operate the technology to give directors a clearer idea of what the music would sound like ahead of time; something Jerry Goldsmith couldn’t do during his era. Zimmer isn’t from a classical background at all btw, but he has profoundly altered the way film music is composed, and moved it much more towards sound design.

So extremely talented musicians abound in Tinsel Town (well it’s where the $$$’s are) it seems like modern film composers don’t come quite as much from that old school tradition.

But it sounds like a nightmare. For instance the Marvel movie’s scores are completely unmemorable; the reasons being AFAIK prevalence of temp tracks from other films to which the films are then cut and directors asking composers to write something just shy of plagiarism of material that is already very generic. Directors used to have conception of music as an artform.... I think that’s pretty sad tbh.

The big thing now is Video Game music; comparative creative freedom alongside big budgets. It’s bigger then Hollywood. I would expect most of the best and brightest are there now.

Yes, the days of great composers doing film scores is long over. Bill Conti (of "Rocky" fame) said the only reason why you write film scores nowadays is that you want to live in a big house.
I paid about $70 for front row tickets to see an orchestra perform Bernard Herrmann's "Symphony" at Carnegie Hall. It was one of the greatest musical experiences of my life.
To expect something like that from Zimmer or any of the film composers of today, would be a joke.

[sgcim]

It's like Frank Zappa said, if you want your music to be popular, you've gotta find a way to shove some WORDS in there, anyway you can. Americans can't stand instrumental music of any kind.

[Christian Miller]

Sure. No saxes, guitars, etc. in Rap. No melody. Fake drums. 4 main titillating words for "lyrics." Not danceable. #2 is why I say "not music." Another art form instead. Music demands melody,harmony and rhythm - not just rhythm. In fact, the heart of African music is the drum, and Rap, which claims to be "Black," eliminated it in favor of a robot. I'm with Wynton on this one.

Pretty much everything in this paragraph is factually incorrect for some hip hop. I could take it apart, but what’s the point?

in fact it’s not even internally self consistent as an argument because you mention (presumably West) African music which does not, in fact, demand harmony or melody in any formally defined Western sense...

It’s just a rant. And I wish more people had the self awareness to admit and enjoy having a rant without having to justify it. I know I like a good rant.

I’m not here to advocate for hip hop, some of which I like, and some of which I don’t. It’s perfectly reasonable to say hip hop is not to your taste, but if you claim that ‘it is not music’, you really have to back it up with coherent case as to why. You might think it’s shit music, but it’s still music.

But people are desperate to justify their aesthetic preferences as having some objective grounding. I find this extremely boring and a waste of energy. it’s interesting how the mainstream aesthetic criteria of good/bad music get shifted a little with every generation.

[Stevebol]

Sure. No saxes, guitars, etc. in Rap. No melody. Fake drums. 4 main titillating words for "lyrics." Not danceable. #2 is why I say "not music." Another art form instead. Music demands melody,harmony and rhythm - not just rhythm. In fact, the heart of African music is the drum, and Rap, which claims to be "Black," eliminated it in favor of a robot. I'm with Wynton on this one.

I wouldn't say I'm with Wynton. Not quite.
I like country music like NWA. South of LA were we very snobby. National City had asshole cops too. We saw 'gangster rap' years before LA.

I like Nick Payton. He likes being edgy but he's NOLA musician like Wynton. Nick never had the opportunities I had. He makes fun of R&B. He say's we have girly souls.
Well, yeah. He never did the gigs we did.
They could turn anyone into a girl. F@cking gangsters in Japan.

What became of 'Rhythm and Blues'? R Kelly is in prison. He wrote one remarkable song;

You need to man up and deal with grown up girls with grown up girl problems, R Kelly.

[grahambop]

For all the talk about ‘Donna Lee’ as the archetypal bebop tune, in 40 years of seeing live jazz (including many of the big names at Ronnie Scotts), I have only ever heard it played once. That was by George Coleman (who to my surprise played it on an alto sax), but he only played it because someone he knew had requested the tune. He said he had not played it for years.

In fact in all those 40 years, I have not heard the ‘big names’ play many Charlie Parker tunes really. I think jazz is a lot more diverse now than you would realise, if you haven’t been seeing a lot of gigs over the years (as I have).

Last week I saw my first live jazz gig for a year, at a festival. It was a sort of asian-jazz-fusion band from London, they improvised over some very catchy Indian drum and tabla beats, plenty of danceable rhythms there. And the hall was as full as it could be, given the social distancing rules in place.

[Christian Miller]

Anyway sorry to be such an argumentative so and so. JGO has devolved into people grumbling about modern music recently.

[sgcim]

Pretty much everything in this paragraph is factually incorrect for some hip hop. I could take it apart, but what’s the point?

in fact it’s not even internally self consistent as an argument because you mention (presumably West) African music which does not, in fact, demand harmony or melody in any formally defined Western sense...

It’s just a rant. And I wish more people had the self awareness to admit and enjoy having a rant without having to justify it. I know I like a good rant.

I’m not here to advocate for hip hop, some of which I like, and some of which I don’t. It’s perfectly reasonable to say hip hop is not to your taste, but if you claim that ‘it is not music’, you really have to back it up with coherent case as to why. You might think it’s shit music, but it’s still music.

But people are desperate to justify their aesthetic preferences as having some objective grounding. I find this extremely boring and a waste of energy. it’s interesting how the mainstream aesthetic criteria of good/bad music get shifted a little with every generation.

Why should we listen to you-you're not even the real Christianm77! I knew the real Christianm77, and you sir, are not he!

[Stevebol]

Anyway sorry to be such an argumentative so and so. JGO has devolved into people grumbling about modern music recently.

If you think people are grumpy on JGO you should visit Las Vegas.

Boomers are cashing out. A lot of us are grumpy.
I can't recommend Las Vegas because it sucks ass.

[jazznylon]

Why isn't Jazz popular? I blame this guy

[Christian Miller]

Why should we listen to you-you're not even the real Christianm77! I knew the real Christianm77, and you sir, are not he!

Bwahahahahhahahahahaah

i would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn’t been for you pesky kids

[Christian Miller]

On a positive note the thing is that you can have articles like this one appearing in modern media (from last week, so brand new):
I England baner unge kunstnere lige nu vejen for en ny jazz-guldalder / introduktion

It's in Danish, but the headline is "In England young artists are currently paving the way for a new golden age of jazz".

Names mentioned are especially Sons of Kemet which are praised for adding a political edge to their music as well, but also GoGo Penguin, Moses Boyd and Shabaka Hutchings, Ezra Collective and Nubya Garcia


But I'm guessing most of the ones complaining here will claim: "That ain't music"


The above just randomly showed up in my google feed, but it's actually fun to see a magazine aimed at the young talk about exciting trends within jazz.

Also worth mentioning that hip hop/rap is mentioned in conjunction with jazz thru names like Kamasi Washington, Robert Glasper and BadBadNotGood despite hiphop/rap being defined as not being music here

I’m a jazz musician in South East London, which is apparently jazz central of the world right now, and I mostly encounter this music in Guardian editorials and BBC Radio 6 Playlists. It’s a generation below me (aside form Shabaka who I used to see and play with at jams often) and tbh I wasn’t getting out to much even before Covid (kids etc.)

The video I posted above is by one of the leading musicians of this scene. I think it’s cool. I’m trying to work out if she plays the guitar, cos if that’s a guitar solo it’s 1) super hip and also 2) not even her number 2 or 3 instrument. Talented musician in any case.

A lot of it is vamp music, and has the inherent problem with vamp music which is that when it’s working it’s great, but when it’s not it can be a bit boring. So it’s a bit hit and miss for me, but I feel it’s an attempt conscious or otherwise to move jazz away from ‘art music’ and more towards engaging with a wider audience.

[djg]

What became of 'Rhythm and Blues'? R Kelly is in prison. He wrote one remarkable song;

this guy followed RKs footsteps. in real life too. i still dig his one song.

[dot75]

Sure. No saxes, guitars, etc. in Rap. No melody. Fake drums. 4 main titillating words for "lyrics." Not danceable. #2 is why I say "not music." Another art form instead. Music demands melody,harmony and rhythm - not just rhythm. In fact, the heart of African music is the drum, and Rap, which claims to be "Black," eliminated it in favor of a robot. I'm with Wynton on this one.

I the ten + years I spent living in West Africa (Senegal /Gambia borders tho' I travelled around a lot) Dancehall was the thing everybody under 25 wanted to hear...

A blast from the past...if you sit still to this you'll hurt something...

[Troubadour_1991]

Which is one reason why Rap / Hip Hop is curiously popular: it is NOT "dance music." Actually, it's not even music, but that's another discussion altogether.

This genre birthed a new style of dancing: hip hop. A dancing tradition that is very rich and unique from other styles. And many people specifically go to clubs to dance to rap/hip hop. Of the many criticisms of rap that can be made it not being dancing music is a curious one.

[SoftwareGuy]

It's because American music has always been driven by technology.

That is correct; Americans invented the electric guitar.

[emilP]

Cause Rock n’roll will always be the king ?

[citizenk74]

This genre birthed a new style of dancing: hip hop. A dancing tradition that is very rich and unique from other styles. And many people specifically go to clubs to dance to rap/hip hop. Of the many criticisms of rap that can be made it not being dancing music is a curious one.

[DavidKOS]

This genre birthed a new style of dancing: hip hop. A dancing tradition that is very rich and unique from other styles.

There does seem to have been a big influence of aerobics, jazzercise, martial arts, break dance, etc. that went into the hip-hop genre of dance.

[pauln]

Why isn't Jazz popular? Wanting to perform Jazz, maybe that is not the relevant question.

Our trio performs standards, Swing to Bop, Blues, Bossa, Latin, and our originals in those forms. It takes more effort and footwork deliberately finding, continuing to collect, and cultivating our audiences, pockets of Jazz popularity.

The right questions to us are, who are the people for which the Jazz we play has always been popular, the people who expect and like this great old Jazz? Where do these people gather who despise loud noise bands and just want to expensively drink and dine in conversation while enjoying our trio play their favorite timeless Jazz tunes?

[Saxophone Tall]

Yes, the days of great composers doing film scores is long over. Bill Conti (of "Rocky" fame) said the only reason why you write film scores nowadays is that you want to live in a big house.
I paid about $70 for front row tickets to see an orchestra perform Bernard Herrmann's "Symphony" at Carnegie Hall. It was one of the greatest musical experiences of my life.
To expect something like that from Zimmer or any of the film composers of today, would be a joke.

I lived a half a mile from Paramount Pictures for the last 15 months. They said "no sound stage" for 10 years. Zimmer isn't a musician and his stuff is boring, just like the movies it decorates. Carl Stalling, he ain't! It's ALL fake. Very little studio work now for actual musicians on ANY instrument (save the major cats who've had what's left sewn up for years).

A guy in the same house played video games 15 hours a day. He fancied himself a metal guitarist and had some of the toys. He sucked the Grand Wazoo. He couldn't play his way out of a paper bag. He was arrogant, too, and said that I couldn't play and "had no talent." (I practiced my saxophone, which I have played for 48 years, outside the house. Also piano, 52 years. I don't lack ability on either). So I asked him: "what are the notes in a C major scale"? His answer: "I don't know, and I don't need to know any of that shit. F---k off."

This guy was also using his computer to "write" some video game music..... YIKES!

[Saxophone Tall]

Why isn't Jazz popular? Wanting to perform Jazz, maybe that is not the relevant question.

Our trio performs standards, Swing to Bop, Blues, Bossa, Latin, and our originals in those forms. It takes more effort and footwork deliberately finding, continuing to collect, and cultivating our audiences, pockets of Jazz popularity.

The right questions to us are, who are the people for which the Jazz we play has always been popular, the people who expect and like this great old Jazz? Where do these people gather who despise loud noise bands and just want to expensively drink and dine in conversation while enjoying our trio play their favorite timeless Jazz tunes?

Yep, that's the quest! Carry on...

[Saxophone Tall]

Yes, that statement about dancing to music is accurate, However, the other reason is melody.
Why do people love singers, even bad pop singers? It's the familiar human voice. The melody is easy to hear.
Most all those standards from 1920-60s have nice pretty melodies to accent the Broadway
performances and to provide a few orchestrated melody notes for opening a scene in a Hollywood film.
People who were not musicians would hum those "standard" melodies after seeing the films several times. (I saw this as
a kid with my father and his friends).

But honestly, but very few people want to hear a sax blaring 8th notes at 300 bpm over the Donna Lee changes.
That was a novel, radical style of playing in the late 1940s that was already getting tiresome by 1960 (or before).

If you enjoy more complex music, then you probably play an instrument and find the complexity interesting and also some sort of technical challenge.

But most people find it simply annoying, and I don't blame them.
They don't know about complex chords changes and don't want to know. Why should they?
A standard melody may have 30 notes. Now, you want them to hear 1000 improvised notes played at 300 bpm and "appreciate" it? Oh, and play 8 choruses of solos as well. People love that. NOT.
It's TEDIOUS NOISE to probably 99.8% of the human population.

I always loved this: "Is this still the same song?" Haha!!!
Jazz doesn't need to be popular.

Great observations. I can't disagree with any of it.

If only people would reward basic sports ability, I, too, could be in the NBA.

We don't reward excellence because we cannot recognize it. Except in sports. Meritocracy & objectivity rule the day.

Most people can't understand Shakespeare or Einstein. Jazz is the equivalent.

That said, I'm a sucker for a great melody. I'm a sax player, and my ilk is generally guilty of "way too many notes."

I subscribe to the Dizzy Gillespie vibe:

"It's taken me my whole life to learn what notes NOT to play."

[Troubadour_1991]

There does seem to have been a big influence of aerobics, jazzercise, martial arts, break dance, etc. that went into the hip-hop genre of dance.

Sure, nothing evolves in a vacuum. This is true for jazz as well, but its still a distinctly different genre from say the blues. My point was dance is a central focus of rap/hip hop. Its is own style where professional dancers can have their entire career in that space alone. So I don't think its accurate to say rap/hip hop isnt dance music.

[Saxophone Tall]

Sure, nothing evolves in a vacuum. This is true for jazz as well, but its still a distinctly different genre from say the blues. My point was dance is a central focus of rap/hip hop. Its is own style where professional dancers can have their entire career in that space alone. So I don't think its accurate to say rap/hip hop isnt dance music.

Well, semantics aside, it isn't dance music in the sense of dancing with a partner.

I know what you're referring to. It, (like the *music* that it is attached to) is "all about me." I analogize it to contortionism.

I see these guys in NYC with their loud amps in Times Square, monopolizing the area (and the cops let 'em do it, while shutting me down for using a tiny amp for background with my sax). I'll give them credit as gymnasts.

Much Hip Hop / Rap is about 93 BPM, too slow for much dancing. Good for showing off various gestures, etc.

And some of it is vulgar, like Cardi B. Not sexy. Just slutty.

In fact, the entire Hip Hop / Rap thing isn't sensuous at all. Its robot rhythms and choppy "lyrics" (which ares also vulgar, glorify the ghetto for money and are dangerous on many levels) aren't sexy at all. No flow. No sway. Just metronomic, obscene nonsense.

I *suppose* you could call it "dancing" if you want. Certainly more than Rap can be called "music," so I'll give you that.

And no guitar (or sax) solos. Boo!