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  1. #376

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    Count Basie, Chick Webb would argue with Goodman being the King of Swing. Even Krupa admitted it when Chick Webb blew them off the stage.

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  3. #377

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Count Basie, Chick Webb would argue with Goodman being the King of Swing. Even Krupa admitted it when Chick Webb blew them off the stage.
    Well, they could argue, but you don’t get the title “King” by arguing, it is bestowed. And perhaps the Crown doesn’t go to who seems in retrospect more deserving, according to a narrow view taken in hindsight - King Solomon wrote a whole book about it.

    Benny Goodman is not the King of Swing because his band won or lost some so-called battle in some club on a particular night. He had the whole package, musicianship, perseverance, the ability to choose sidemen, arrangers and singers, and to pilot the whole ship around the country, gig after gig, dance after dance, recording session after session. And, whether through shrewd calculation or blind luck (you need some luck to be King), he came upon the perfect combination of swing, sweetness, virtuosity, simplicity, entertainment, choreography and personality to give the great mass of Americans exactly what they wanted when they wanted it.

  4. #378

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    Well I said I won’t argue with you. He wasn’t bestowed necessarily because he fully deserved it. Yes he had huge crowds. But so did Basie and Webb and had they had the support that Goodman had they would have had an audience share as large.


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  5. #379

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    Basie, of course was also jazz royalty (The Count!) and an amazing band leader and, while no one can dispute Benny’s crown, The Duke was always my personal favorite, but I’m afraid he was too sophisticated for the masses, and only became more so over time.

    Artistically, I don’t think any big band ever surpassed this:
    Duke Ellington Masterpieces - YouTube


    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Well I said I won’t argue with you. He wasn’t bestowed necessarily because he fully deserved it. Yes he had huge crowds. But so did Basie and Webb and had they had the support that Goodman had they would have had an audience share as large.

  6. #380

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Count Basie, Chick Webb would argue with Goodman being the King of Swing. Even Krupa admitted it when Chick Webb blew them off the stage.
    Ah Chick Webb was something else

  7. #381

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    Don’t sleep on Lunceford though


  8. #382

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    Great band, indeed - I love Eddie Durham's guitar playing with that group.



    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Don’t sleep on Lunceford though


  9. #383

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    Benny Goodman, a white male, captivates white America in the 30’s-40’s. And the accomplishment is what, best ever to an all white crowd? You would have thought Goodman had invented jazz.

    The issue is during the times of Goodman many black musicians couldn’t get a gig based on their race. That fact contributed to some resentment towards white players.

    Fact is, everything changes. Music moved in popularity based upon youth and the times. Jazz wasn’t supposed to continue to be the most popular music. You can’t compare the 40’s to the 60’s. Doing so is an unreasonable expectation of music popularity to be the same.

  10. #384

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Benny Goodman, a white male, captivates white America in the 30’s-40’s. And the accomplishment is what, best ever to an all white crowd? You would have thought Goodman had invented jazz.

    The issue is during the times of Goodman many black musicians couldn’t get a gig based on their race. That fact contributed to some resentment towards white players.

    Fact is, everything changes. Music moved in popularity based upon youth and the times. Jazz wasn’t supposed to continue to be the most popular music. You can’t compare the 40’s to the 60’s. Doing so is an unreasonable expectation of music popularity to be the same.
    Even though he could be a jerk don't forget BG was one of the first bandleaders to have an integrated band, hiring Teddy Wilson, Hamp, Christian, Cootie, etc

  11. #385

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    'Worship Jazz'

    Could be a money-maker.

  12. #386

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    Even though he could be a jerk don't forget BG was one of the first bandleaders to have an integrated band, hiring Teddy Wilson, Hamp, Christian, Cootie, etc
    For sure, BF was one of the first to integrate. But that fact doesn’t change the fact that you can’t expect a black orchestra to be the top band during the 30’s and 40’s white society. That’s unrealistic. And let’s face it, the fact that blacks, who invented jazz, didn’t have the opportunity of white players playing jazz. This was one of the reasons, I believe, that paved the way for bebop.

    And by 1950 Swing bands were pretty much done. You see, music simply changes with trends. And by mid 1950 the popularity of rock, a brand new thing which appealed to youth, dramatically changed things, another change in trends.

    So the popularity of jazz didn’t stand a chance with youth, for they had already migrated to rock. I don’t buy the narrative that jazz moving away from dance music had anything to do with the popularity of jazz and its failing. Times had simply changed.

  13. #387

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    For sure, BF was one of the first to integrate. But that fact doesn’t change the fact that you can’t expect a black orchestra to be the top band during the 30’s and 40’s white society. That’s unrealistic. And let’s face it, the fact that blacks, who invented jazz, didn’t have the opportunity of white players playing jazz. This was one of the reasons, I believe, that paved the way for bebop.

    And by 1950 Swing bands were pretty much done. You see, music simply changes with trends. And by mid 1950 the popularity of rock, a brand new thing which appealed to youth, dramatically changed things, another change in trends.

    So the popularity of jazz didn’t stand a chance with youth, for they had already migrated to rock. I don’t buy the narrative that jazz moving away from dance music had anything to do with the popularity of jazz and its failing. Times had simply changed.
    So why are you not into modern black music?

    Pretty dominant on the charts

  14. #388

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    For sure, BF was one of the first to integrate. But that fact doesn’t change the fact that you can’t expect a black orchestra to be the top band during the 30’s and 40’s white society. That’s unrealistic. And let’s face it, the fact that blacks, who invented jazz, didn’t have the opportunity of white players playing jazz. This was one of the reasons, I believe, that paved the way for bebop.

    And by 1950 Swing bands were pretty much done. You see, music simply changes with trends. And by mid 1950 the popularity of rock, a brand new thing which appealed to youth, dramatically changed things, another change in trends.

    So the popularity of jazz didn’t stand a chance with youth, for they had already migrated to rock. I don’t buy the narrative that jazz moving away from dance music had anything to do with the popularity of jazz and its failing. Times had simply changed.
    That does add up.

  15. #389

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

    By 1950 Swing bands were pretty much done. You see, music simply changes with trends. And by mid 1950 the popularity of rock, a brand new thing which appealed to youth, dramatically changed things, another change in trends.

    So the popularity of jazz didn’t stand a chance with youth, for they had already migrated to rock. I don’t buy the narrative that jazz moving away from dance music had anything to do with the popularity of jazz and its failing. Times had simply changed.
    Interesting comment about dancing and popularity of jazz. Only early rock was what I would define as dance music but by the mid to late 60s that just wasn't the case with most rock. Did one put on Zeppelin at a dance party in the 70s? This is what caused the Disco music rage since Disco is clearly dance music., and a lot of people need a strong connection between dancing and music.

  16. #390

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Only early rock was what I would define as dance music but by the mid to late 60s that just wasn't the case with most rock.
    Quite right. Once the Beatles grew mustaches it was curtains, lol.


    EDIT: Come to think of it, I don't remember anyone dancing to Rubber Soul.

    Rock dancing didn't stop per se, it just got weird. "Ate up" is what we used to call druggies.
    Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 02-01-2021 at 08:25 PM.

  17. #391

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Only early rock was what I would define as dance music but by the mid to late 60s that just wasn't the case with most rock.
    It was all over by then. Jazz audiences were seated. The big bands had been replaced by combos in the 1950s. Only a few survived: Ellington, Basie, Kenton, Herman. Rock ’n’ Roll had taken the white youth, while Rhythm and Blues replaced jazz for young black audiences. Jazz survived in clubs and concert halls. The only teen at the Village Vanguard was Donald Fagen.

  18. #392

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    So why are you not into modern black music?

    Pretty dominant on the charts
    I’m the generation of Motown. You don’t hear real hits today because an entire industry died. I don’t believe I’ve heard a legitimate hit since Whitney Houston in the 90’s. I’ve never been a fan of rap and most hip hop. Different generation.

    Hits today. Now that’s hilarious.

  19. #393

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Interesting comment about dancing and popularity of jazz. Only early rock was what I would define as dance music but by the mid to late 60s that just wasn't the case with most rock. Did one put on Zeppelin at a dance party in the 70s? This is what caused the Disco music rage since Disco is clearly dance music., and a lot of people need a strong connection between dancing and music.
    Dancing and jazz is generally the first complaint of those who say jazz was dead the moment musicians played music one couldn’t dance to. I’ve never bought into that argument. And frankly, don’t see how anyone here could for we weren’t around in the 40’s.

    All we know about that period is what we’ve read in history books.

  20. #394

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Dancing and jazz is generally the first complaint of those who say jazz was dead the moment musicians played music one couldn’t dance to. I’ve never bought into that argument. And frankly, don’t see how anyone here could for we weren’t around in the 40’s.

    All we know about that period is what we’ve read in history books.
    Uh, we have much more than just what we read in history books. We have recordings. We have ears.

  21. #395

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Hits today. Now that’s hilarious.
    OK Then ... Like with Marinero, we're simply talking about your boomer taste in music and ignore most past 1970 and everything past 1980.


    That's cool

  22. #396

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    Arguing about popular music seems rather pointless to me. It's pop, after all. It's planned and architected to be temporal, faddish even. It's meant to make a buck, and that is the measure of success (or at least records sold which translates to bucks). "So and so has "n" number of platinum record$ or gold record$, etc., etc.

    And dance worthy? Well, contemporary popular dancing has always been part of the mating ritual of the young. That's also temporal, one generation at a time, maybe even one year at a time. Not meant to last.

    So, when some pop music turns out to have lasting artistic appeal that's a bonus, not a requirement.

    Or so it seems to me.

  23. #397

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Benny Goodman, a white male, captivates white America in the 30’s-40’s.
    from Wikipedia:

    Early years
    "Playing music was a great escape for me from the poverty."
    Goodman, in a 1975 interview

    Goodman was the ninth of twelve children born to poor Jewish emigrants from the Russian Empire. His father, David Goodman (1873–1926), came to the United States in 1892 from Warsaw in partitioned Poland and became a tailor. His mother, Dora Grisinsky,[1] (1873–1964), came from Kovno. They met in Baltimore, Maryland, and moved to Chicago before Goodman's birth.

    With little income and a large family, they moved to the Maxwell Street neighborhood, an overcrowded slum near railroad yards and factories that was populated by German, Irish, Italian, Polish, Scandinavian, and Jewish immigrants.

    Money was a constant problem. On Sundays, his father took the children to free band concerts in Douglass Park, which was the first time Goodman experienced live professional performances. To give his children some skills and an appreciation for music, his father enrolled ten-year-old Goodman and two of his brothers in music lessons, from 1919, at the Kehelah Jacob Synagogue and Benny received two years of instruction from the classically trained clarinettist and Chicago Symphony member, Franz Schoepp. During the next year Goodman joined the boys club band at Hull House, where he received lessons from director James Sylvester.

    By joining the band, he was entitled to spend two weeks at a summer camp near Chicago. It was the only time he could get away from his bleak neighborhood. At 13, he got his first union card. He performed on Lake Michigan excursion boats, and in 1923 played at Guyon’s Paradise, a local dance hall.

    When he was 17, his father was killed by a passing car after stepping off a streetcar. His father's death was "the saddest thing that ever happened in our family", Goodman said.

  24. #398

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Arguing about popular music seems rather pointless to me.
    We're not debating pop .. We're debating race and how black musicians/artists where not afforded the same opportunities then as white musicians say Benny Goodman ... Which lead me to ask why 2bornnot2bop wasn't supportive of modern black musicians/artist now that such finally are offered a chance of both artistic and financial success

    Last edited by Lobomov; 02-02-2021 at 11:26 AM.

  25. #399

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    We're not debating pop .. We're debating race and how black musicians/artists where not afforded the same opportunities then as white musicians say Benny Goodman ... Which lead me to ask why 2bornnot2bop wasn't supportive of modern black musicians/artist now that such finally are offered a chance of both artistic and financial success (like not even millions, but billions of $$$)

    We are? So the "Bebop As a highest art" thread and this one should be combined I guess? Could save some disk space.

    Anyway, I think 2born's point was that the Jay-z and Beyonce stuff, like so much oher stuff out there these days, is crap, or maybe I misunderstood him. If true, then it kind of goes to what I was saying about pop in general. Designed to be temporal, designed to generate cash.

  26. #400

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    I don't think I'd like jazz as much if it was widely popular. Its kind of a special thing now, I meet someone who likes jazz and we have a bond, something in common.

    Pop music isn't like that. It'd be like meeting someone and finding out they like pizza and being like "omg, thats AMAZING, I love pizza too!"