Why Isn't Jazz Popular?

[Lobomov]

Arguing about popular music seems rather pointless to me.

We're not debating pop .. We're debating race and how black musicians/artists where not afforded the same opportunities then as white musicians say Benny Goodman ... Which lead me to ask why 2bornnot2bop wasn't supportive of modern black musicians/artist now that such finally are offered a chance of both artistic and financial success

[Donplaysguitar]

We're not debating pop .. We're debating race and how black musicians/artists where not afforded the same opportunities then as white musicians say Benny Goodman ... Which lead me to ask why 2bornnot2bop wasn't supportive of modern black musicians/artist now that such finally are offered a chance of both artistic and financial success (like not even millions, but billions of $$$)

We are? So the "Bebop As a highest art" thread and this one should be combined I guess? Could save some disk space.

Anyway, I think 2born's point was that the Jay-z and Beyonce stuff, like so much oher stuff out there these days, is crap, or maybe I misunderstood him. If true, then it kind of goes to what I was saying about pop in general. Designed to be temporal, designed to generate cash.

[mr. beaumont]

I don't think I'd like jazz as much if it was widely popular. Its kind of a special thing now, I meet someone who likes jazz and we have a bond, something in common.

Pop music isn't like that. It'd be like meeting someone and finding out they like pizza and being like "omg, thats AMAZING, I love pizza too!"

[Lobomov]

We are? So the "Bebop As a highest art" thread and this one should be combined I guess? Could save some disk space.

Yeah .. The bebop thread crept in to this thread too a few posts above

Anyway, I think 2born's point was that the Jay-z and Beyonce stuff, like so much oher stuff out there these days, is crap, or maybe I misunderstood him. If true, then it kind of goes to what I was saying about pop in general. Designed to be temporal, designed to generate cash.

Will you teach me how to make cash generating temporal pop?

[Lobomov]

I don't think I'd like jazz as much if it was widely popular. Its kind of a special thing now, I meet someone who likes jazz and we have a bond, something in common.

Pop music isn't like that. It'd be like meeting someone and finding out they like pizza and being like "omg, thats AMAZING, I love pizza too!"

So what you're saying this, right?

A 1930s Mr. Beaumont would be like:
Yo .. That Benny Goodman, Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong stuff .. I mean it's ok, but just pizza .... Neoclassical modernism and minimalism like Erik Satie .. That is where it's at!!

[jameslovestal]

I don't think I'd like jazz as much if it was widely popular. Its kind of a special thing now, I meet someone who likes jazz and we have a bond, something in common.

Pop music isn't like that. It'd be like meeting someone and finding out they like pizza and being like "omg, thats AMAZING, I love pizza too!"

While I understand the POV here, when it comes to playing jazz, I feel differently: I have always wished that when I went to someone's house and they had a piano, or guitar (the most common instruments) or something else, I could say; hey, want to play some jazz, I have a guitar and small amp in my trunk (which I tend to do), AND they would say "yea".

Instead most people just can't play any instrumental music, jazz or no-jazz (or they only play the blues, which gets-old quickly, or they play rock that is mostly about the lyrics and playing around the lyrics). That limits any bonding, and I just love to meet people and make music with them when we have something musical in common.

[mr. beaumont]

So what you're saying this, right?

A 1930s Mr. Beaumont would be like:
Yo .. That Benny Goodman, Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong stuff .. I mean it's ok, but just pizza .... Neoclassical modernism and minimalism like Erik Satie .. That is where it's at!!

That's a pretty good question, actually. I don't know what the answer would be.

I like jazz because I actually like it, but I never would have found it if I hadn't had the attitude of "everything on the radio sucks, I need to find my own thing."

[Lobomov]

That's a pretty good question, actually. I don't know what the answer would be.

I like jazz because I actually like it, but I never would have found it if I hadn't had the attitude of "everything on the radio sucks, I need to find my own thing."

Well .. worst case you'd get passionate about early 20th century classical music ... I could imagine worse fates

[Donplaysguitar]

Will you teach me how to make cash generating temporal pop?

If only I could, if only I could.

[grahambop]

Well .. worst case you'd get passionate about early 20th century classical music ... I could imagine worse fates

He would only have to wait a few years, then he would discover bebop.

[2bornot2bop]

OK Then ... Like with Marinero, we're simply talking about your boomer taste in music and ignore most past 1970 and everything past 1980.


That's cool

lol. I said up to WH in the 90’s. Songs today aren’t made by Tower of Power or Chicago. A hit today is noise. Motown produced hits. One could recognize a hit when they heard it. What’s going on?

[2bornot2bop]

We are? So the "Bebop As a highest art" thread and this one should be combined I guess? Could save some disk space.

Anyway, I think 2born's point was that the Jay-z and Beyonce stuff, like so much oher stuff out there these days, is crap, or maybe I misunderstood him. If true, then it kind of goes to what I was saying about pop in general. Designed to be temporal, designed to generate cash.

Exactly. I’ve not heard a hit in 26 years. The music is so bad, I stopped listening to the radio. The Grammys? Forget about it.

[2bornot2bop]

We're not debating pop .. We're debating race and how black musicians/artists where not afforded the same opportunities then as white musicians say Benny Goodman ... Which lead me to ask why 2bornnot2bop wasn't supportive of modern black musicians/artist now that such finally are offered a chance of both artistic and financial success

Generational difference. Kids rule pop. I’m too old to relate to what they’re doing. I appreciate that JZ is a billionaire. But today’s music doesn’t hold the same interest to me as music of the 60-70’s. Those were hits. The Beach Boys sound as good today as they ever did.

[Lobomov]

lol. I said up to WH in the 90’s. Songs today aren’t made by Tower of Power or Chicago. A hit today is noise. Motown produced hits. One could recognize a hit when they heard it. What’s going on?

Up to somewhere in the 90s ... lol .. That actually ain't that bad

[mr. beaumont]

I expected to hate this video (because I think Billie Eilish is actually kind of cool) but I think it actually makes some interesting points, and it is pertinent to our conversation here.

[Beaubs]

Call me crazy but I think jazz is more popular than ever what with social platforms and such. I've seen and heard more jazz in the last 5 years than I had ever before. It could be that I have shown more interest?

Speaking of Big Bands, I am always drawn to Count Basie. There is just something about the arrangement of those songs..

[BickertRules]

I don’t think you’re crazy, but I’ll bet if you spent just a little time searching the internet you would find there are a lot more people who like to have sex in furry animal costumes than you might have guessed before the internet.

I think it’s just easier to find jazz, jazz articles, and jazz fans now. But if being a fan means you buy the music and financially support the musicians, then the numbers show the jazz audience is shrinking, not growing.

Could be a million jazz fans out there in America (I doubt it). A million people on the internet seems like a lot to one person, especially if you’re used to just bumping into a handful of people in your real life who like jazz. But in terms of a proportion of the total music market, the number of jazz fans rounds down to zero.

Call me crazy but I think jazz is more popular than ever what with social platforms and such. I've seen and heard more jazz in the last 5 years than I had ever before. It could be that I have shown more interest?

Speaking of Big Bands, I am always drawn to Count Basie. There is just something about the arrangement of those songs..

[2bornot2bop]

I don’t know, but jazz is huge in Japan and parts of Europe. America, who cares, for America has never supported jazz even in the same respect as Europe. Thinking jazz should win popularity polls is backward thinking. It’s the only music I listen to except for some classical. Everyone has different tastes. Do your thing.

[jazznylon]

I expected to hate this video (because I think Billie Eilish is actually kind of cool) but I think it actually makes some interesting points, and it is pertinent to our conversation here.

Even before watching this video I had a sneaking suspicion that melody in general is rather old fashioned. Couldn't explain why but I think this video is onto something here. With the advent of hooks becoming more and more prevalent to the point where melody gets entirely replaced or barely used much and how that might have shaped modern musical understanding/taste at large (along with fast easy to use technologies).. Makes perfect sense tbh

[Stevebol]

I'm done trying to be hip to today's music. It gives me the blues. That's all it can do for me.

[Litterick]

The thoroughly miserable pop music of ten years ago is now being played in the supermarket.

[frankhond]

It’s not pop’s fault that jazz isn’t more popular. Pop provides better songs and experiences.

Here are two recent pre covid jazz experiences I had.

A concert in a hotel lobby. A musician from new york marketed as one of the most important acts today. He plays trumpet very fast. Every note is staccato. His head is red because of the effort. Every song is a staccato stream of notes. The lobby is full of people, I recognize 90% of them, they are regulars, the organizers and the organizers friends. And some jazz journalists. I hold out to the end of the first set but when the staccato trumpet starts again I bail.

A concert at the main jazz café in town. One of Sweden’s main jazz guitarists. He is an awesome player. Long fast bebop lines. It’s great but after maybe 20 minutes the song sounds exactly the same, did they change songs or not? 40 minutes later of this I’m so bored. And depressed that the artist is so good yet the music so noncommittal.

I can give a list of jazz artists that truly deliver every time. But the above happens SO often.

Compare this to any experience by Radiohead, Rammstein, Björk, Beyoncé, HER etc. You can actually tell the songs apart. No comparison really.

[Lobomov]

It’s not pop’s fault that jazz isn’t more popular. Pop provides better songs and experiences.

Here are two recent pre covid jazz experiences I had.

A concert in a hotel lobby. A musician from new york marketed as one of the most important acts today. He plays trumpet very fast. Every note is staccato. His head is red because of the effort. Every song is a staccato stream of notes. The lobby is full of people, I recognize 90% of them, they are regulars, the organizers and the organizers friends. And some jazz journalists. I hold out to the end of the first set but when the staccato trumpet starts again I bail.

A concert at the main jazz café in town. One of Sweden’s main jazz guitarists. He is an awesome player. Long fast bebop lines. It’s great but after maybe 20 minutes the song sounds exactly the same, did they change songs or not? 40 minutes later of this I’m so bored. And depressed that the artist is so good yet the music so noncommittal.

I can give a list of jazz artists that truly deliver every time. But the above happens SO often.

Compare this to any experience by Radiohead, Rammstein, Björk, Beyoncé, HER etc. You can actually tell the songs apart. No comparison really.

I've said the same thing more than once too

I suspect that the death of groups that gig regularly and maybe even rehears probably is a big factor. Even if a song really need a solo from every single member of the group, what you lose is a sense of structure within the song .. Just 5 guys blowing at the top of their lungs in every tune.

I can give a list of jazz artists that truly deliver every time.

Yeah .. But many of them tend to be world class and thus tour with the same people for prolonged periods of time. Also being a group with supporting a main artist they tend to not adhere to the strict rule that every one needs to play a solo in every song. As a random example Metheny has been playing with Sanchez, Linda and Gwilym for quite a few years and they all sit out plenty of songs as solo players.

Metheny (and also someone like Sco) does cater to the not 100% jazz head part of his audience. There is going to be some out of this world blowing for 15 minutes (Question and Answer), short tunes without much soloing (He did Bright Life in a 2-3 minute version) and also tunes that are primarily about textures.


As I said before, I get it .. You need to make a living and just gigging with whoever has a gig is currently more profitable than trying to keep a group afloat.

Tho I'm not saying every group structures it's stuff nicely .. Seen many world class acts that delivered amazing concerts, but Ari Hoenig with Jonathan Kreisberg was a world class version of the bebop guitarist gig you described about. Just a constant assault with no remorse.

[jazznylon]

It’s not pop’s fault that jazz isn’t more popular. Pop provides better songs and experiences.

Here are two recent pre covid jazz experiences I had.

A concert in a hotel lobby. A musician from new york marketed as one of the most important acts today. He plays trumpet very fast. Every note is staccato. His head is red because of the effort. Every song is a staccato stream of notes. The lobby is full of people, I recognize 90% of them, they are regulars, the organizers and the organizers friends. And some jazz journalists. I hold out to the end of the first set but when the staccato trumpet starts again I bail.

A concert at the main jazz café in town. One of Sweden’s main jazz guitarists. He is an awesome player. Long fast bebop lines. It’s great but after maybe 20 minutes the song sounds exactly the same, did they change songs or not? 40 minutes later of this I’m so bored. And depressed that the artist is so good yet the music so noncommittal.

I can give a list of jazz artists that truly deliver every time. But the above happens SO often.

Compare this to any experience by Radiohead, Rammstein, Björk, Beyoncé, HER etc. You can actually tell the songs apart. No comparison really.

Oh god yes. I went through a similar experience a long time ago with a solo pianist. He played a Beethoven Piece that at first seemed pleasant but later found that is not to be the case. Whenever it seems he's about to end the piece for about the 20th time he doesn't and instead goes for the same repetitive pleasant melody elliciting groans all over. Its quite frankly absurd to the point of hilarity only no one is laughing and just want the guy to finish the damn piece already. My Classical Guitar teacher was there too as part of the audience and when I took a lesson with him after the whole debacle he told me "Someone should've told Beethoven that piece was too long." If only I remember what that piece was called

[Dutchbopper]

It’s not pop’s fault that jazz isn’t more popular. Pop provides better songs and experiences.

Here are two recent pre covid jazz experiences I had.

A concert in a hotel lobby. A musician from new york marketed as one of the most important acts today. He plays trumpet very fast. Every note is staccato. His head is red because of the effort. Every song is a staccato stream of notes. The lobby is full of people, I recognize 90% of them, they are regulars, the organizers and the organizers friends. And some jazz journalists. I hold out to the end of the first set but when the staccato trumpet starts again I bail.

A concert at the main jazz café in town. One of Sweden’s main jazz guitarists. He is an awesome player. Long fast bebop lines. It’s great but after maybe 20 minutes the song sounds exactly the same, did they change songs or not? 40 minutes later of this I’m so bored. And depressed that the artist is so good yet the music so noncommittal.

I can give a list of jazz artists that truly deliver every time. But the above happens SO often.

Compare this to any experience by , HER etc. You can actually tell the songs apart. No comparison really.

I will take that "boring" bebop guitarist (Was it Andreas Oberg?) anytime and anyday over the alternatives you mentioned. Radiohead, Rammstein, Björk, Beyoncé ...? Pffff.

DB

[Lobomov]

I will take that "boring" bebop guitarist (Was it Andreas Oberg?) anytime and anyday over the alternatives you mentioned. Radiohead, Rammstein, Björk, Beyoncé ...? Pffff.

DB

Isn't Andreas Öberg far too busy writing K-pop to do bebop gigs?

[Dutchbopper]

Isn't Andreas Öberg far too busy writing K-pop to do bebop gigs?

He is clever yes. Cashing in big time (and I mean really big time) and doing boring bop gigs on the side because he likes that shit. And he can do that like nobody else!

DB

[frankhond]

Isn't Andreas Öberg far too busy writing K-pop to do bebop gigs?

Which brings a second point. Jazz *is* popular, embedded in other music. Bowie, Björk, Radiohead, DAngelo... I would even say that some of the songs by these artists are jazz, with lyrics just like in the old days, but a newer sounds and perhaps more modern drumming. And the people playing on those songs are jazz musicians.

@Dutchbopper I guess you were one of the regulars at that event :-)

[Dutchbopper]

Which brings a second point. Jazz *is* popular, embedded in other music. Bowie, Björk, Radiohead, DAngelo... I would even say that some of the songs by these artists are jazz, with lyrics just like in the old days, but a newer sounds and perhaps more modern drumming. And the people playing on those songs are jazz musicians.

@Dutchbopper I guess you were one of the regulars at that event :-)

No, but I would not go to any of the concerts of the artists you mentioned even if I was paid so it's a no brainer. Was it Oberg?

DB

[grahambop]

A friend of mine gets dragged off by his wife occasionally to see those big pop acts, the tickets cost about £100 each or some such b/s., and he is basically watching them on a big screen from a great distance.

Then he goes with me to a jazz gig and it’s about £10 - £15, occasionally a bit more for a big visiting US player, we are about 6 feet away, and we usually get to chat with the musicians afterwards.

I know which I think is better value.

[Lobomov]

A friend of mine gets dragged off by his wife occasionally to see those big pop acts, the tickets cost about £100 each or some such b/s., and he is basically watching them on a big screen from a great distance.

Then he goes with me to a jazz gig and it’s about £10 - £15, occasionally a bit more for a big visiting US player, we are about 6 feet away, and we usually get to chat with the musicians afterwards.

I know which I think is better value.

Apples and oranges? ... Pat Metheny from row X at £50-60 a ticket?

[grahambop]

I probably wouldn’t go to that either. I used to see Joe Pass from the front table at Ronnie Scotts for £5!

Also saw Pat Martino and Kenny Burrell there for the same price.

And George van Eps with Howard Alden for a tenner at another club.

John Abercrombie with his organ trio at Ronnies for £5.

John Abercrombie (the year before he died) for about £15 at another club.

Allan Holdsworth at Ronnies for £5.

One night my friends saw George Benson for free at Ronnies because he came in and jammed with the main act, after his own concert had finished (annoyingly I wasn’t there for some reason)!

[Dutchbopper]

I probably wouldn’t go to that either. I used to see Joe Pass from the front table at Ronnie Scotts for £5!

Me neither. The only bigger jazz concert I ever attended was Pat Martino.

I saw all the Dutch jazz giants for free in a small bar where I organised jams and concerts myself. Very intimate, as it should be. I filmed maestro Martijn van Iterson just 2 meters from the stage he was on. See vid below to give you an idea.

DB

PS. This does not sound particularly boring to me. His solos are masterpieces.

[dot75]

One night my friends saw George Benson for free at Ronnies because he came in and jammed with the main act, after his own concert had finished (annoyingly I wasn’t there for some reason)!

Off topic but you reminded me -

I Went to hear Bill Frisell once at the Bass Clef, people behind me started talking, when I finally turned round to frown at them most of the Jazz Messengers where standing along the back wall, not sure how pleased BF was - they kind of took over his gig...

[grahambop]

I saw Joey Calderazzo (piano) at the Tenor Clef once, and Branford Marsalis came straight from his gig with Sting and sat in for the last set. It was great, in fact I thought Branford played better than when I saw him at Ronnies with his own band!

[BickertRules]

Wow that guy sounds soooo good!

I had a 1950s ES-125 on loan from an employer for 7 years. I still miss it; it had the best straight-ahead clean electric jazz tone of any guitar I’ve ever played.

Some of MVI’s albums are a bit too modern (effects, fusion) for me - could I get some recommendations for recordings where he sounds like this?

I filmed maestro Martijn van Iterson just 2 meters from the stage he was on. See vid below to give you an idea.

DB

PS. This does not sound particularly boring to me. His solos are masterpieces.

[AllanAllen]

I like pizza.

[Dutchbopper]

Wow that guy sounds soooo good!

I had a 1950s ES-125 on loan from an employer for 7 years. I still miss it; it had the best straight-ahead clean electric jazz tone of any guitar I’ve ever played.

Some of MVI’s albums are a bit too modern (effects, fusion) for me - could I get some recommendations for recordings where he sounds like this?

I have a 125 too. Excellent guitar for that classic bop sound.

Martijn's CDs often feature his own compositions. You could try "The Whole Bunch" or "Streetwise." His compositions are more contemporary but his guitar sound is straight ahead on those albums. That said, I like his live tone better than what I hear on these albums. He usually sounds live just like I recorded him. On his albums he sounds a bit more polished.

Tracks of 'The Whole Bunch" are on Youtube. Streetwise is on Youtube as a full album.

If you like standards there is this CD that he made with pianist Peter Beets. It is on Youtube in its entirety too. Click here. Some tracks feature Joe Cohn.

DB

[Lobomov]

I probably wouldn’t go to that either. I used to see Joe Pass from the front table at Ronnie Scotts for £5!

Also saw Pat Martino and Kenny Burrell there for the same price.

And George van Eps with Howard Alden for a tenner at another club.

John Abercrombie with his organ trio at Ronnies for £5.

John Abercrombie (the year before he died) for about £15 at another club.

Allan Holdsworth at Ronnies for £5.

One night my friends saw George Benson for free at Ronnies because he came in and jammed with the main act, after his own concert had finished (annoyingly I wasn’t there for some reason)!

I saw Joey Calderazzo (piano) at the Tenor Clef once, and Branford Marsalis came straight from his gig with Sting and sat in for the last set. It was great, in fact I thought Branford played better than when I saw him at Ronnies with his own band!

Lady Gaga showed up to at the one place in town that is know for jazz and jazz jams after a concert too. Mostly her own musicians on stage, but a couple of the regulars are there too (don't know how many, but the guitar player for one of the locals at least). She performed for half an hour

Prince had a habit of showing up unannounced at one of out smaller places after his big concerts with his band and just freely perfrom for a couple of hours more from say midnight to 2 am. (First time was a surprise after that people started to expect it)

[jameslovestal]

I have a 125 too. Excellent guitar for that classic bop sound.

DB

I have a 60's 125 and it sounds great but the neck isn't as wide as my L7 or 175. Thus it takes me a while to sound clean playing the 125 since I mostly play those other guitars (or a Martin acoustic).

[BickertRules]

Thanks for the tips!

I like the Beets album, another one to add to my growing list of drummerless jazz albums!

Martijn's CDs often feature his own compositions. You could try "The Whole Bunch" or "Streetwise." His compositions are more contemporary but his guitar sound is straight ahead on those albums. That said, I like his live tone better than what I hear on these albums. He usually sounds live just like I recorded him. On his albums he sounds a bit more polished.

Tracks of 'The Whole Bunch" are on Youtube. Streetwise is on Youtube as a full album.

If you like standards there is this CD that he made with pianist Peter Beets. It is on Youtube in its entirety too. Click here. Some tracks feature Joe Cohn.

DB

[Dutchbopper]

Thanks for the tips!

I like the Beets album, another one to add to my growing list of drummerless jazz albums!

I have vids of the live show of that album in my Blog. The entire show is in 3 installments (Bop Till You Drop 1-2-3)

DB

Dutchbopper's Jazz Guitar Blog: Bop Till You Drop

[2bornot2bop]

Lady Gaga showed up to at the one place in town that is know for jazz and jazz jams after a concert too. Mostly her own musicians on stage, but a couple of the regulars are there too (don't know how many, but the guitar player for one of the locals at least). She performed for half an hour

I love how well she does that tune. It was better in her movie though. It was horrible when the trumpet player chimed in. He could have played his part softly, but nope, he said I’ve got a trumpet and I’m going to play it loud. He ruined it.

[jameslovestal]

I love how well she does that tune. It was better in her movie though. It was horrible when the trumpet player chimed in. He could have played his part softly, but nope, he said I’ve got a trumpet and I’m going to play it loud. He ruined it.

Due to Lady Gaga making songs like Check to Check relatively popular again, I added them to my playlist. The only thing that somewhat gets me is when someone says "oh, you're playing Lady Gaga's song". Oh, well, at least they have heard the melody and have something to relate to. Sometimes someone will even ask if they can sing the lyrics.

[blackcat]

I don't think I'd like jazz as much if it was widely popular. Its kind of a special thing now, I meet someone who likes jazz and we have a bond, something in common.

Pop music isn't like that. It'd be like meeting someone and finding out they like pizza and being like "omg, thats AMAZING, I love pizza too!"

If it ever becomes really popular, I'm outa here!! If somethign is too popular, I probably don't need to know about it. Think Facebook, skinny jeans, Karaoke etc.