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  1. #251

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    I just came back from NYC, where I attended shows at Small's, Mezzrow and the Blue Note. All packed. I'm not sure how many in the audience were visiting NYC, but, certainly, quite a few. Why so full? I attribute to the quality of the music. //Small's, for example, has a capacity (sign on the door) of 72. You can hear, from a few feet away, some of the best musicians in the world in a relaxed setting, any night of the week. The music is so good that you don't have to be a jazz fan to appreciate it. This is not intermediate level players hacking their way through the real book. Then, there's the Blue Note. Big room. Expensive. A 52 show residency by Robert Glasper. I went on a Wednesday evening and it was packed. I read that it would be a piano trio, but there was a fourth -- who played computer and maybe some other devices I couldn't see. The show had very little in common with classic piano trio jazz. There were a few snippets of jazz tunes, including maybe 20 seconds of classic jazz piano on Body and Soul. Maybe just to prove that he could do it, which he clearly could. There was a barely recognizable reworking of Stella. //But, mostly it was texture and groove. Mostly funk, just a little swing. Very little demarcation between tunes. Mostly, without recognizable classic form with intro, headin, solos, head out, coda. It may have all been completely free form -- it seemed like it - I wouldn't know what to expect if I went on a second night. So, the thought I had was that, just maybe, what isn't so popular is the original historical form, that is, standards played the usual way, no matter how skillfully (obviously, with some exceptions at the high end of skill and fame). //It certainly looked liked Robert Glasper was popular, if the Blue Note gave him 52 shows in a row. But, what he is doing is not the classic piano trio --even though he's perfectly capable of it. Maybe , he's moving the music forward, by focusing on different grooves, not focusing on ii V harmony, using more vamps (e.g. 4 chords), employing sound effects and spoken word recordings, making the music seem like (or be) stream of consciousness and maybe making the whole show, including the heads, all be arranged on the spot. //Maybe, you can't expect an 80 year old form (or 50) to be much more popular than a 95 year old form. So, that bop is reaching a maturity point akin to trad jazz.BTW, I liked it a lot. I found it accessible even though it was unfamiliar. My wife, who likes some jazz styles and not all, loved it.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Jazz has no melody to speak of????? Sorry, but the art of improvisation is to make one's own melodies and not mindless 'unconnected' noodling.
    We should all be trying to make our own melodies if we are playing primarily for our own satisfaction, but if the melodies we are creating are not easily understood it is unlikely that a large percentage of the population will appreciate those melodies. The reality is that most people don’t want to work hard at understanding music. Music, for most, is an escape. It is a means of relieving stress, and as such is typically more appreciated by the masses when it is relatively simple.

  4. #253
    "Kids don’t have a well developed, or appreciation for, complex harmonies or tonality..."
    Beg to differ. I know a jazz ensemble made up entirely of 11-year-olds that can blow the doors of any rock band, youth or adult. They may be the exception in that not many of their classmates have even heard of 'Island Birdie' or 'Red Clay' but they aren't all mutant Mozarts either.

  5. #254

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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBrooklyn
    "Kids don’t have a well developed, or appreciation for, complex harmonies or tonality..." Beg to differ. I know a jazz ensemble made up entirely of 11-year-olds that can blow the doors of any rock band, youth or adult. They may be the exception in that not many of their classmates have even heard of 'Island Birdie' or 'Red Clay' but they aren't all mutant Mozarts either.
    There are exceptions to every rule, but for every 11 year old that can appreciate Trane and Mingus I’ll show you 1000 that will never be able to, or never want to appreciate anything more complex than Taylor Swift, and that’s okay as there is value in all types of music.

  6. #255

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    Here's why:

    DB


  7. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBrooklyn
    "Kids don’t have a well developed, or appreciation for, complex harmonies or tonality..."
    Beg to differ. I know a jazz ensemble made up entirely of 11-year-olds that can blow the doors of any rock band, youth or adult. They may be the exception in that not many of their classmates have even heard of 'Island Birdie' or 'Red Clay' but they aren't all mutant Mozarts either.
    That quoted statement perhaps puts the cart before the horse. What do we expose children to? Low information music mostly....

    Edwin Gordon (the audiation guy) believed that we should expose young children to a wide variety of tonalities and modalities.

    Most typical children’s music in the Western world are very limited in terms of tonality.

    It seems tastes or at least deep familiarity in such things are formed very early for most people, around the same as children acquire language.

    OTOH my daughter naturally seems obsessed with Peppa pig and that’s the way it is haha
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-17-2019 at 08:50 AM.

  8. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
    Maybe I should have said "memorable" melody that stays with the listener after the tune is over. I don't hear that in jazz and I don't think the players care whether the audience remembers carry anything away with them or not. Yes, they may remember the melody to "Georgia" or "Laura" but they will not remember much, if any, that came after the head. In away, I think it's a very selfish type of music where one is playing for him/herself and not the general audience which, to me, is the point. Of course, at a jazz festival or club I guess that's to be expected but for the general public, it's over their heads. Besides, it's hard to dance to since the 30s and 40s. I've played in dance bands pretty much my entire career except to forays into theater - people go out to drink and dance, in my experience. I've never played a a purely 'listening' venue in 50 years of doing this - maybe NYC or LA but certainly not in podunk SW Florida.
    All music is based on singing and dancing and it’s easy to forget that.

    And all music seems to have a natural journey from being dance music to being art music. By the time of Bach the many of the dance forms he wrote in were passing out of the popular culture of the time.... We have seen the same thing happening to rock - probably to hiphop and EDM for all I know.

    In the case of jazz I think it’s unfair to tar all recent jazz with the same brush. I think it’s perfectly possible to make melodic music that grooves and doesn’t sound like it comes from the 1940s (mind you they’d probably moan that it isn’t jazz so you can’t win be definition.) what are the young generation doing if not that?

  9. #258

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    "Mutant Mozart"

    I like that!

  10. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    Here's why:

    DB

    Made me laugh out loud! Thank you!

  11. #260

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That quoted statement perhaps puts the cart before the horse. What do we expose children to? Low information music mostly....

    Edwin Gordon (the audiation guy) believed that we should expose young children to a wide variety of tonalities and modalities.

    Most typical children’s music in the Western world are very limited in terms of tonality.

    It seems tastes or at least deep familiarity in such things are formed very early for most people, around the same as children acquire language.

    OTOH my daughter naturally seems obsessed with Peppa pig and that’s the way it is haha
    Our children grew up on a super-eclectic audio diet of everything from Bach to Bartok, Scarlatti to Stravinsky, Mahler, Wagner, Rimski-Korsakov, Shostakovitch, Prokofiev, Hendrix, Joplin, P-Funk, Beatles/Stones/Who/Cream/Allman Brothers; Pass/Brubek/Stitt/Saunders/Miles; and Zappa; in utero and beyond. And yet, they grew into functional adults. Go figure.

  12. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokinguit
    Why jazz is not popular? I think that has to do with jazz having difficulty defining itself. It's cool to check out and incorporate other styles, but don't forget your roots. Many artists water down the spirit of jazz so much that you are left wondering how to define what they are trying to do: is this rock, R & B, Indie, hip hop and so on? So this article is misleading.
    J

    Jazz is popular, it's just that it's now splintered into many "forms". The aggregate of these forms makes "Jazz" or music that features "improvisation" over its song forms is a contender in the "popular music" arena.

  13. #262

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    I've been thinking about this for over 45 years and watching this thread for somewhat less time. I'd like to take a shot.

    Thing is, the average guy doesn't listen to music like some of the posts imply. Music isn't about listening in the popular music world. It's about joining a club. One with spiritual, political, economic, verbal, gastronomic and fashion rules. This is why, for EG, you don't see a lot of cowboy boots and stetsons at the Met.

    Never made sense to me that you have to put on a costume to enjoy a particular kind of music.

    So why isn't Jazz more popular? The jazz culture isn't as popular as it once was. It's nothing new, but seems like there's a lot more people who are more interested in looking toned and fit than just about anything else these days. Jazz culture is more about the life of the mind than the life of the body. Well.... until it comes to sex anyways.

    I think it's been like this since I first started trying to figure out how to make a living playing jazz.

  14. #263

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  15. #264

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    I think that every song that has no lyrics can't become very popular...it's limited right away.

  16. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

  17. #266

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    Che quanto piace al mondo
    è breve sogno.
    [What the world likes is just a short dream.]

    - Petrarch -





    Explanation for those who have never heard of Petrarch:
    The human pursuit of fame, glamor, permanence, occupuying center stage, was his ongoing life theme.
    However, Petrarch was smart enough to realize that the "fruit of the laurel tree" as the bitter fruit ("acerbo frutto") would rather bring new suffering than consolation.




  18. #267

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    It’s all about the long tail, bro......

    Also I’m amused that pop isn’t actually that popular, and hip hop is still considered cooler/more credible.

  19. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It’s all about the long tail, bro......

    Also I’m amused that pop isn’t actually that popular, and hip hop is still considered cooler/more credible.
    And rock and roll has completely died? Good thing they play guitar in country music.

  20. #269

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    Guitar over stayed its welcome.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  21. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    And rock and roll has completely died? Good thing they play guitar in country music.
    That seems to be the vibe from what Rick Beato says...

    I’d be interested to see how it compares in other countries. For instance here commercial country is not big, but what we call americana (bluegrass, roots country etc) has a strong if non mainstream following.

  22. #271

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Guitar over stayed its welcome.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yeah it did. And I’m ok with that.

    My early years learning were dominated by my dads record collection. So I always found it hard to take seriously as a youth instrument.

    It just stopped being cool. It was kind of uncool in the 90s. Grunge was about reclaiming the instrument. But now it’s too far gone.

    Give it 50 years.

    Quite a bit of rock guitar and even a bit of shredding in hip hop and other ‘urban’ music though...

  23. #272

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    And now a few words from Frank.

    Frank Zappa - Decline of the Music Industry - YouTube


    Not that one; the other one.

  24. #273

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    Not popular? It's not Pop.

  25. #274

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    Quote Originally Posted by Betz
    And now a few words from Frank.

    Frank Zappa - Decline of the Music Industry - YouTube


    Not that one; the other one.
    FZ's explanation is spot-on. Most record releases are money-losers. For every Madonna or Beatles there are thousands of artists who never made a dime. Thus, labels are focused on profit and are extremely adverse to risk. As a result, the music industry remains stuck in a cycle that perpetuates cultural stagnation instead of taking chances that might stimulate evolution of popular tastes towards more interesting and adventurous music.

    Couple this with other ideas mentioned previously, about how non-musicians don't consume music as music but are adopting an identity, joining a club, and how the average consumer's "musical identity" is a product of what they were exposed to in their formative years. It's not hard to see that if the only thing you hear on the radio is rap and hip-hop, well, I guess you grow up thinking that that is what good music should be.

    Some of us, though, stumble upon something else and it calls to us. Despite growing up on 60s rock, I found jazz harmony (and Romantic and Impressionistic composers) to attract me like a moth to a flame. But not everyone is wired like that. We could just as well ask "why isn't housecleaning more popular?" Some people - lots of people, I would venture - just don't like doing it. (Cue the excellent bean-salad analogy.) I know a few folks who find cleaning house or pulling weeds in the garden to be a pastime that they really enjoy, but most would probably not make that their first choice to while away a few free hours. So not everyone is wired for jazz. Fine with me. I am, and I don't have a problem with those who aren't.

    Finally... after all of those posts about playing guitar, I have to ask the following pretty much completely off-topic question:

    Q: How many guitar players does it take to change a light bulb?

    A: One to change the bulb and five to stand in the front row and say "Oh, I can do that."

    Cheers,

    SJ

  26. #275

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    FZ's explanation is spot-on.
    And a different perspective, in the Questions and answers at the end of the video. He created an album in his bedroom without a record company. He won 2 Grammys. Things have changed.


  27. #276

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    I think there's been a chain of historical circumstances, a combination of adverse factors:

    - from the mid-50s, with the arrival of the Rock, which attracted more young people, at least whites, since there was the black branch of the Rn'B, Soul...
    - barely the free-jazz page closed, jazz turns to rock, ie fusion Jazz-Rock, Miles Davis first and the cohort of guitarists who follow. We have a new audience, massive, coming from rock, and in which ancient jazz fans do not recognize themselves massively. It's the steamroller of the political economy of music
    - come the 80s and the traditionalism of Winton Marsalis and Lincoln Center, with varying effects, but mostly an adulation of revivals of different eras

    we must realize that the revival New-Orleans (dixieland) in the late 1940s, is only 20-25 years after its living period of new music. Today, we are 70-80 years away from bebop! Those who play him did not know him when he was born

    many well-known jazzmen of the 50s, who arrive in the 70s in the middle of their careers, tell of this terrible period for them, where some stopped music, others better armed composed for movies or television (Benny Golson ...). You can read in Betty Carter and others real cries of revolt against this invasion, and for her the real betrayal of some jazzmen making music that pleases

    Marsalis has given them a chance to come back and train young people, that's fine, but what is the connection of this music with the present, socially? none, it corresponds to anything that young people live, unlike rap or hip-hop, not to mention metal

    there has been a historical change in musical paradigm with the major festivals, the media that accentuate the gap between commercial music and demanding music as it is, and worse now with Youtube, streaming, etc.

    I think we should not at all costs want to make jazz popular, but probably more connected with everyday life, as before

  28. #277

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    It would help if we had the technology for instruments to self destruct once a certain limit on rubato arpeggio based solos is reached.

  29. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    FZ's explanation is spot-on. Most record releases are money-losers. For every Madonna or Beatles there are thousands of artists who never made a dime. Thus, labels are focused on profit and are extremely adverse to risk. As a result, the music industry remains stuck in a cycle that perpetuates cultural stagnation instead of taking chances that might stimulate evolution of popular tastes towards more interesting and adventurous music.
    SJ
    Well, if at any point in the last 20 years you've heard a song from The Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, N'Sync, Kelly Clarkson, Taylor Swift, Ace of Base, Katy Perry, Celine Dion, Bon Jovi, Adam Lambert, Carrie Underwood, Pink, Justin Bieber… then you've unwittingly been subjected to the creations of a Swedish born musical genius who goes by the name of Max Martin.Believe it or not, over the past 15-20 years Max Martin has been the brains, ears and talent behind virtually every hit pop song that has been released to the screaming masses. He's personally responsible for churning out more Billboard singles than Michael Jackson and Madonna COMBINED.”

    Is this not the logical conclusion to what FZ was saying? If a label is going to invest millions in a singer / song, then the closer it is to something already popular the less risk. The target audience is going to be preteen / teen because they are the ones buying the downloads, running up the YouTube views, and going to the concerts. They are not going to dig Giant Steps; I didn’t when I was 14.

    The fact that we are still talking about jazz, be it bop, west coast cool, or fusion, is a testament to its appeal and longevity. It has legs. So Julian Lage probably will not be #1 in downloads or ticket sales any time soon, but he is still out there. Enjoy.

  30. #279

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Looks like jazz is more popular now than ever.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 02-14-2020 at 06:19 PM.

  31. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Looks like jazz is more popular now then ever.
    I don't know about that; are you sure you're not color blind? Jazz is in "green". (but not as it relates to money!).

  32. #281

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    I think there's been a chain of historical circumstances, a combination of adverse factors:

    - from the mid-50s, with the arrival of the Rock, which attracted more young people, at least whites, since there was the black branch of the Rn'B, Soul...
    - barely the free-jazz page closed, jazz turns to rock, ie fusion Jazz-Rock, Miles Davis first and the cohort of guitarists who follow. We have a new audience, massive, coming from rock, and in which ancient jazz fans do not recognize themselves massively. It's the steamroller of the political economy of music
    - come the 80s and the traditionalism of Winton Marsalis and Lincoln Center, with varying effects, but mostly an adulation of revivals of different eras

    we must realize that the revival New-Orleans (dixieland) in the late 1940s, is only 20-25 years after its living period of new music. Today, we are 70-80 years away from bebop! Those who play him did not know him when he was born

    many well-known jazzmen of the 50s, who arrive in the 70s in the middle of their careers, tell of this terrible period for them, where some stopped music, others better armed composed for movies or television (Benny Golson ...). You can read in Betty Carter and others real cries of revolt against this invasion, and for her the real betrayal of some jazzmen making music that pleases

    Marsalis has given them a chance to come back and train young people, that's fine, but what is the connection of this music with the present, socially? none, it corresponds to anything that young people live, unlike rap or hip-hop, not to mention metal

    there has been a historical change in musical paradigm with the major festivals, the media that accentuate the gap between commercial music and demanding music as it is, and worse now with Youtube, streaming, etc.

    I think we should not at all costs want to make jazz popular, but probably more connected with everyday life, as before
    I don't think it's that simple. Jazz is probably as influential as it has ever been artistically, although Robert Glasper turning up on Kendrick Lamar records is unlikely to make a difference to the pie chart above....



    Is all niches now. Look how unpopular pop is lol.

  33. #282

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    People like to sing, dance and feel something from music.

    You can't sing or dance to the bulk of American jazz. And, the emotional appeal varies. A lot of the time, it's subtle.

    I watched the Grammy awards show. The audience is smiling and moving to the hiphop performances. Hard to imagine that kind of response for jazz, even when people like it. It's just a different kind of impact.

    Jazz is also very hard to play really well and the quality of the band really makes a difference.

    Jazz seems to be pretty popular in NYC, where the level of skill tends to be very high. To the point where it's barely the same music that I hear locally. It has led me to think that if the musicians know what's going to happen as they start playing the song, it's not jazz. Jazz has to be created on the spot. It's the spontaneity that makes it great. I know that that's too extreme, but when I go to NYC that's a characteristic of the shows where the place is packed and not the shows where there are empty seats, even for name players. Small sample size, though.

  34. #283

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    People like to sing, dance and feel something from music.

    You can't sing or dance to the bulk of American jazz. And, the emotional appeal varies. A lot of the time, it's subtle.

    I watched the Grammy awards show. The audience is smiling and moving to the hiphop performances. Hard to imagine that kind of response for jazz, even when people like it. It's just a different kind of impact.

    Jazz is also very hard to play really well and the quality of the band really makes a difference.

    Jazz seems to be pretty popular in NYC, where the level of skill tends to be very high. To the point where it's barely the same music that I hear locally. It has led me to think that if the musicians know what's going to happen as they start playing the song, it's not jazz. Jazz has to be created on the spot. It's the spontaneity that makes it great. I know that that's too extreme, but when I go to NYC that's a characteristic of the shows where the place is packed and not the shows where there are empty seats, even for name players. Small sample size, though.
    I was having a convo with a drummer the other day. Really good jazz player, but kind of stopped playing jazz - all that counting and odd time. The jazz scene is all originals here... brain music mostly (not entirely TBF, but a lot of it). People who run the scene are like prog rock fans, that's what they want.

    He said that over here (far from the light of NYC) basically few jazz players get that rhythmic intensity in music; you have to go to Brazilian or Cuban stuff. In NYC, it's different, and you can tell the difference in the intensity which even bog standard straightahead gigs are played, the rhythmic cohesion and so on. It might not want to make people dance... but it has a groove.

    I wish (most) people would get over the surface complexity of jazz and play as if it's actual music. And blinking rehearse. I never get the feeling players in NYC are going through the motions...

    I played a lot of old style swing music. I think there's a lot to be said for that stuff, the older generation (bop guys) grew up with that stuff. Now you learn jazz as an art music.

    Anyway there's not a massive divide between contemporary jazz and hiphop these days. One shades into the other.

  35. #284

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I was having a convo with a drummer the other day. Really good jazz player, but kind of stopped playing jazz - all that counting and odd time. It's all originals here... brain music mostly (not entirely). People who run the scene are like prog rock fans, that's what they want.

    He said that over here (far from the light of NYC) basically few jazz players get that rhythmic intensity in music; you have to go to Brazilian or Cuban stuff. In NYC, it's different, and you can tell the difference in the intensity which even bog standard straightahead gigs are played, the rhythmic cohesion and so on. Or the proggy shit for that matter. It might not want to make people dance... but it has a groove.

    I wish (most) people would get over the surface complexity of jazz and play as if it's actual music. And blinking rehearse.

    I played a lot of old style swing music. I think there's a lot to be said for that stuff, the older generation (bop guys) grew up with that stuff. Now you learn jazz as an art music.

    Anyway there's not a massive divide between contemporary jazz and hiphop these days. One shades into the other.
    So much truth here.

    Although a lot of current jazz that's hip hop informed sounds like it's being just a little "too clever" a lot of the time. And not to be that guy, but a lot of the time, it's the white dudes.

    And then on the other side of the spectrum you got your swing gatekeepers.

    And in between, glimmers of hope. Christian Atunde Adjuah's "stretch music," a kind of rock/hip hop/jazz hybrid that sounds authentic because it's music he grew up on, blended. Kamasi Washington's "mid period Trane meets CTI" explorations. Again, it sounds authentic. He's making the music he wants, not the music he thinks maybe someone will like. On the guitar front you got a guy like Julian Lage, who literally just plays whatever the fuck he wants. There's music like this out there...Yusef Kamaal...Ezra Collective...It's actually hip, not just music for music students.

    Me? I just want organ jazz to come back in hard. Organ group with with a "juicy" tenor and congas, man, that's the band I want to be in.

  36. #285

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    I think the current definition of Pop Music might include popular country and hip hop, unless you define Pop Music as popular music from the '50s thru the '80s or '90s.

  37. #286

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I don't know about that; are you sure you're not color blind? Jazz is in "green". (but not as it relates to money!).
    Yes it's the green slice. But when was the last time Jazz was more popular than that green portion?

  38. #287

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I was having a convo with a drummer the other day. Really good jazz player, but kind of stopped playing jazz - all that counting and odd time. The jazz scene is all originals here... brain music mostly (not entirely TBF, but a lot of it). People who run the scene are like prog rock fans, that's what they want.

    He said that over here (far from the light of NYC) basically few jazz players get that rhythmic intensity in music; you have to go to Brazilian or Cuban stuff. In NYC, it's different, and you can tell the difference in the intensity which even bog standard straightahead gigs are played, the rhythmic cohesion and so on. It might not want to make people dance... but it has a groove.

    I wish (most) people would get over the surface complexity of jazz and play as if it's actual music. And blinking rehearse. I never get the feeling players in NYC are going through the motions...

    I played a lot of old style swing music. I think there's a lot to be said for that stuff, the older generation (bop guys) grew up with that stuff. Now you learn jazz as an art music.

    Anyway there's not a massive divide between contemporary jazz and hiphop these days. One shades into the other.
    And, while I'm on the subject ... I also noticed that some of the top shows featured jazz artists who seemed to appreciate that they're also entertainers.

    Joey D, at Dizzy's, sang, played trumpet, talked to the audience and also played organ.

    Also at Dizzy's Trio Da Paz showed up with 6 musicians (large for a trio, no?). These players included Harry Allen and Claudio Roditi (sadly, both since passed) and Maucha Adnet, a singer. It was a show, not just a jazz band.

    Eliane Elias kicked off her shoes and danced the samba. She played well known tunes and had extended 3625 jams with great rhythm. That was at Yoshi's in Oakland, not NYC.

    Robert Glasper, at the Blue Note, had a laptop computer player as the fourth player, in what was otherwise a classic piano trio, doing sound effects, leading a singalong and playing spoken word clips. I mostly couldn't tell what was planned, rehearsed or improvised in more than an hour of music.

    At the smaller shows downtown (Zinc, Mezzrow and Small's), the crowded shows generally featured name players. Some of these were less focused on entertainment and more focused on head-solos-head sort of performances, but you could see that the musicians were creating things on the fly, e.g. the drummer changing up the feel with the other musicians looking surprised and then reacting.

    I also attended some shows which were less entertaining/adventurous. Despite name players, there were empty seats at Zinc, which is a tiny place.

    There is jazz tourism in NYC. For example, my wife and I were the only people speaking English at our table for 12 at the Blue Note. Others were from Asia and South America. But, at the smaller, less well known clubs, there were plenty of locals, including musicians (some of whom I knew by reputation) in the audience.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 02-15-2020 at 07:11 AM.

  39. #288

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    I don't think a segment of a genre splitting off to more experimental abstract adventures affects the popularity of the genre in general.
    Rock had that tendency from the beginning. Psychedelic/progressive stuff in the 60's and 70's, fusion, modal, odd time stuff in the 80's. That didn't prevent Bon Jovi and AC/DC from pumping out dive bar favorite top 40 hits.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 02-14-2020 at 04:55 PM.

  40. #289

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    I mean if they had to water down Wes Montgomery so his records would sell (in the 60's!), what hope do we have today for jazz to reach a wider audience?
    What jazz musician has more capacity to appeal to a non-jazz audience while remaining true to the style? Even the rock guys like him

  41. #290

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    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Some of the free players swing harder than the straight ones...

  42. #291

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I mean if they had to water down Wes Montgomery so his records would sell (in the 60's!), what hope do we have today for jazz to reach a wider audience?
    What jazz musician has more capacity to appeal to a non-jazz audience while remaining true to the style? Even the rock guys like him
    theres an argument that jazz has never been popular, it’s just it used to be closer to pop music. In a sense it’s come full circle.

    jeff mentioned a few London guys. To me that stuff completely doesn’t grab me at all, sounds like routine Afro Beat, and I find it mysterious that it’s gone on to be as successful as it has, even penetrating into US jazz consciousness. But that stuff is groove oriented unlike most contemporary jazz here and might be ... intriguing to someone who hasn’t heard much of those grooves. Maybe there’s more Nigerian music in London? (Also there’s a North African influences here as well in some of the bands which can be interesting.)

    I quite like this band, quite reflective of what’s happening in my backyard (south london) even if I am not a part of that scene at all lol

  43. #292

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    Another Brit ... Richard Spaven seems quite a big deal these days. I know him from drumming with M-base alum Robert Mitchell.

    the nice thing is their music always represents the place they’re in. Distinctively used aspects of drum and bass, broken beat and so on, which was the prevailing music of London for a long while. NYC jazz borrowed it, but it came from here. Dubstep too. (Hey I remember Dubstep from before Skrillex murdered it lol)

  44. #293

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    Speaking of Drum and Bass, Goldie is a huge Metheny fan, right? (Going back a bit now haha, I have friends who did the Timeless 20th anniversary gig few years back. Terrifying)



    (RIP Lyle of course)

    and you can hear it in his melodies I think.... jazz has always been an inspiration to musicians.

  45. #294

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    I'm not a jazz player. I'm an Allman Bros and Santana dorian player that stumbled upon flat fives and real key changes. So now all of a sudden I have opinions on jazz music.

    Free players with their tortured cat saxophone screams, twitchy runs, and intentional lack of way points have moved past boring to annoying.

    Straight ahead players, chained to emphasizing harmonic content above all else, are either boring and repetitive or so good that they can rise above that constraint and swing anyway. Very, very few of those about. And they're still playing all the same stuff.

    Not that I'm cynical. I listen to Hiromi and am blown away. I listen to The Bad Plus and think 'this is not boring'. I listen to Gypsy Jazz and can see what's in their heads and appreciate that their virtuosity is part of the fabric of the music. Where in so many other forms it's an unwelcome overlay where playing something hard and/or fast is supposed to substitute for good.

    Bah. Get off my lawn.

  46. #295

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    I'm not a jazz player. I'm an Allman Bros and Santana dorian player that stumbled upon flat fives and real key changes. So now all of a sudden I have opinions on jazz music.

    Free players with their tortured cat saxophone screams, twitchy runs, and intentional lack of way points have moved past boring to annoying.

    Straight ahead players, chained to emphasizing harmonic content above all else, are either boring and repetitive or so good that they can rise above that constraint and swing anyway. Very, very few of those about. And they're still playing all the same stuff.

    Not that I'm cynical. I listen to Hiromi and am blown away. I listen to The Bad Plus and think 'this is not boring'. I listen to Gypsy Jazz and can see what's in their heads and appreciate that their virtuosity is part of the fabric of the music. Where in so many other forms it's an unwelcome overlay where playing something hard and/or fast is supposed to substitute for good.

    Bah. Get off my lawn.
    Made me think of a quote from Neil Young in a 1992 interview:
    Q : "What do you think about those who go to school to learn how to play guitar?"
    NEIL : "It would give you a rather sad view of your future, wouldn't it? First off, nobody cares if you know how to play scales. Nobody gives a shit if you have good technique or not. It's whether you have feelings that you want to express with music, that's what counts, really. When you are able to express yourself and feel good, then you know why you're playing. The technical aspect is absolute hogwash as far as I'm concerned. It bores me to tears. I can't play fast. I don't even know my scales. I know that most of the notes I play aren't where I play them. They're simply not there. So you can play any note you like. I think about it on another level, I don't care about that sort of shit. On the other hand, I appreciate really great guitarists, and I'm very impressed by those metal groups with their scale guitarists. When I see that, I go «Holy shit, that's really something». Satriani and Eddie Van Halen are guitar geniuses. They are incredible musicians, at an amazing level. But it does't really grab me. One note will do."

    Not saying Neil is jazz, but a valid comment on complexity for the sake of complexity. Room for us all?

    BTW, love that headstock in your photo.

  47. #296

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    Quote Originally Posted by Betz
    Made me think of a quote from Neil Young in a 1992 interview:
    Q : "What do you think about those who go to school to learn how to play guitar?"
    NEIL : "It would give you a rather sad view of your future, wouldn't it? First off, nobody cares if you know how to play scales. Nobody gives a shit if you have good technique or not. It's whether you have feelings that you want to express with music, that's what counts, really. When you are able to express yourself and feel good, then you know why you're playing. The technical aspect is absolute hogwash as far as I'm concerned. It bores me to tears. I can't play fast. I don't even know my scales. I know that most of the notes I play aren't where I play them. They're simply not there. So you can play any note you like. I think about it on another level, I don't care about that sort of shit. On the other hand, I appreciate really great guitarists, and I'm very impressed by those metal groups with their scale guitarists. When I see that, I go «Holy shit, that's really something». Satriani and Eddie Van Halen are guitar geniuses. They are incredible musicians, at an amazing level. But it does't really grab me. One note will do."

    Not saying Neil is jazz, but a valid comment on complexity for the sake of complexity. .
    Absolutely right - but most of us wouldn't be satisfied with that. Some folks are no doubt quite happy to play one chord, or just make a sound, or sing a song, and that's okay for them. But if you have a more complex mind then you need something more to do. People who play jazz have complex minds, it's the way it is. Being Neil Young would drive them mad and Neil Young couldn't do what they do anyway. Different strokes and different folks.

  48. #297

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    we may regret that "the people" is not as we wish, but if we can't change it, we don't want to be popular, i.e. make popular jazz

    if the people are against jazz, should we dissolve jazz, or the people?


  49. #298

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Absolutely right - but most of us wouldn't be satisfied with that. ..
    Very much agree. Neil Young wrote and performed some great songs. He has a style and a gift for lyrics. However, most of us here would not be satisfied in a C F G world. Thing is.. are we satisfied in a ii V7 I world? And once we come to wanting more, does the path less traveled mean we leave musical communication with our listeners behind? Or instead do we seek a bit of elegant complexity (lyrics, melody, harmonic, rhythmic.. any one or all) while still maintaining a bond with the listener?

    We all like to dazzle someone with our blazing harmonic minor runs. And making linear, interesting melodic lines look easy as we wander through a minefield of chord changes. All the musical twists and turns we explore from the basic to the esoteric. It's good. It's cool. But I would like to have both: Intellectual engagement and communication with my audience.

    Oh.. and jazz could be a bit easier. Would like that too.

  50. #299

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    we may regret that "the people" is not as we wish, but if we can't change it, we don't want to be popular, i.e. make popular jazz

    if the people are against jazz, should we dissolve jazz, or the people?
    Simple. You get a real job and do as you wish with your hobbies.

  51. #300

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    I read this thread to my grandchildren at night to put them to sleep...zzzzz