Why Isn't Jazz Popular?

**christianm77** · 02-02-2016, 03:53 PM

Ha! There is a little devil sitting on my left shoulder going 'you know maybe the reason why jazz isn't more popular is that most of it is self indulgent rubbish.'

He's a naughty little fellow. But sometimes I think he may have a point. Just because music is played by incredibly skilled and educated musicians doesn't in fact mean it's any good. It can be hard for musicians to write music that addresses non-musicians because pretty much everyone you end up hanging out with as a musician, is another musician.

Classical music gets around the problem by delegating the problem of which notes to play and when to someone else, usually someone safely dead.

The trouble with the contemporary jazz thing is that you are asked to be a composer as well as an improvisor and a performer. The thing is not everyone who is great at soloing on Stella by Starlight writes compositions that are any good. There are quite a few contemporary players I would rather hear play standards than their own stuff.

There are some great composers too, but it's like everyone has to write and that's not really fair.

I love EST for example, who jazz guys can be a bit snotty about, but the fact is they wrote tunes that people liked, and played grooves that built up and had an incredible feeling to them - and they were GREAT players. And they were successful beyond jazz as a result.

**goldenwave77** · 02-02-2016, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

. It can be hard for musicians to write music that addresses non-musicians because pretty much everyone you end up hanging out with as a musician, is another musician.

My kids know I love jazz music. Sometimes I take them out with me to hear live music. I always tell them, "Listen to the band play the tune the first time through...and then QUIETLY....hum it to yourself, as they take their successive solos". If the band at least plays the head once through, this is feasible. The casual listener gets the idea that solos are NOT just random---but somehow "fit" on top of the original melody. What happens when the band never even plays the head once?! ....They are leaving the casual listener adrift....and ignored....you might as well listen to someone jam over a backing track.

The trouble with the contemporary jazz thing is that you are asked to be a composer as well as an improviser and a performer. The thing is not everyone who is great at soloing on Stella by Starlight writes compositions that are any good. There are quite a few contemporary players I would rather hear play standards than their own stuff.

Gary Burton talks about this in one of his seminars on youtube...I think it is the one at Loyola Univ. (New Orleans). Basically, royalties are a lot better for self-generated work. He said a lot of great players are not compelling songwriters, and that he felt many of them basically had two songs...a slow one, and a fast one. He thinks Chick Corea is near the top of contemporary writers, and is both prolific, and really, really good.

**Jonzo** · 02-02-2016, 04:29 PM

That so many insist that one should learn jazz by copying certain "greats" seems like a recipe for stagnation.

Then again, fashions go in cycles. Maybe jazz will make a comeback.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-02-2016, 04:33 PM

I dunno about that. Artforms are hard to teach without going to the source.

We copied Rembrandt in my painting classes too, even though I wanted to paint more like Rothko. Still taught me invaluable things.

**Lazz** · 02-02-2016, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Jonzo

That so many insist that one should learn jazz by copying certain "greats" seems like a recipe for stagnation.

Then again, fashions go in cycles. Maybe jazz will make a comeback.

It may seem to you like a recipe for stagnation - but you would be very wrong.
Emulation of masters is the means of continuing any art tradition.
(We ain't talking about the plagiaristic theft of simply "copying" licks, here)
Emulation leads to internalisation of method and reason and language.
Internalisation generates the tools for innovation.

Emulation - Internalisation - Innovation

Jazz never went away.

**christianm77** · 02-02-2016, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by goldenwave77

Gary Burton talks about this in one of his seminars on youtube...I think it is the one at Loyola Univ. (New Orleans). Basically, royalties are a lot better for self-generated work. He said a lot of great players are not compelling songwriters, and that he felt many of them basically had two songs...a slow one, and a fast one. He thinks Chick Corea is near the top of contemporary writers, and is both prolific, and really, really good.

Of course. Jazz is completely unrecognised under copyright law.

You can earn extra money by performing your own material on gigs in the UK - as long as you can be bothered to fill out the forms. I take advantage of this myself.

Yeah Chick writes good stuff, I agree with Burton.

**Lazz** · 02-02-2016, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I love EST for example, who jazz guys can be a bit snotty about

Wow!

Never met anyone snotty about EST.
EST are jazz guys anyway, for sure.
Aren't they?

**Lazz** · 02-02-2016, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

You can earn extra money by performing your own material on gigs in the UK

Extra money?
It's your right, mate - not an extra.
Just keep filling in those PRS forms.
In North America the procedures and formulae are much more problematic.

(Can't believe that the automatic spell-check wishes me to correct my pluralisation of "formula" - but it does)
(It's like being given fashion advice by a blind hermit)

**christianm77** · 02-02-2016, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Lazz

Wow!

Never met anyone snotty about EST.
EST are jazz guys anyway, for sure.
Aren't they?

I'd say. I love their Monk album.

**Stevebol** · 02-02-2016, 06:12 PM

The big picture the way I see it;
American music had a good run for about a hundred years- from about 1900-2000.
And now, it's over.

**AlsoRan** · 02-02-2016, 10:07 PM

You know something. When I first joined this forum, I always thought of Jazz as being new. Each time I hear someone play Autumn Leaves, they are putting their own spin on it and writing a new song that never existed before.

So I thought to myself, how could it be old? The band just played it for the first time.

Now if you ask was it good? That would be a different topic but was it old? - No. It was just created.

Just my 2 cents...

**MarkInLA** · 02-03-2016, 12:09 AM

Jazz, to the larger percentage of society, sounds like cacophony. It's filled with melodies and harmonies which sound ugly to those not into it. The rhythms are way above common folks and odd time too is a mystery. They just plain can't relate to all the desinence, the trading 4s and 8s, the fast cut-time numbers such as "Giant Steps", "Moment's Notice" and a multitude more. If in 3/4 it's a jazz waltz, such as " My Favorite Things " and "Bluesette". Commoners want a ballroom waltz or ones like "Moon River". IE. It's just too complicated a sound to the masses, too eery, too, well.....way out a sound. Allot of jazz borders on atonalism. They don't have ears for this the way we have; developing this ability along the way.. For these reasons it's, sadly, the least selling form of music in the world, so I'm told.

**henryrobinett** · 02-03-2016, 01:18 AM

To most people it just SOUNDS like a mess. They can't hear it at all. And to be fair it's a music that demands that you figure it out.

**cosmic gumbo** · 02-03-2016, 04:58 AM

In the big band I play in, it's mostly the swing era classic repertoire, Goodman, Miller, Ellington, Basie, etc. We also do some big band style arrangements of classic smaller combo stuff, Miles, Mingus, Zawinul, Herbie.....but the bottom line is, that most of the folks in the big band are not really fans of bebop or contemporary jazz.

I also play/gig with some great country/alt country/bluegrass/americana/funk/blues/rock musicians, and while they respect jazz, they don't really listen or support it, except for a very few.

The point is, if most good musicians don't really dig it, why would the general public give a hoot about it or the people that make it? It's just logical that it is viewed as pretty much worthless. Just like any other serious artform.

Jazz...pursue or practice at your own risk....

**snoskier63** · 02-03-2016, 01:38 PM

Too many musicians of all genres are way too full of themselves and their chosen art form. Why is it that people who don't appreciate Mingus, Coltrane, or even Halverson are too common or overly simple? I get that some among us have spent many years studying music in great detail, but while I think certain music sucks because to my ears it doesn't work harmonically, that doesn't mean I am too simple to understand what is happening. I can appreciate the harmonic movements academically, but aurally I still think they suck. On the other hand, I can diagnose a torn labrum or meniscus without any imaging. It's all about differences and variety. If we all liked the same things life would be unbearable. The more variety there is, the more likely people are to come up with new ideas. Eventually that will lead to something incredibly good.

**Stevebol** · 02-03-2016, 01:42 PM

It's not popular because I'm not doing it.
It's not like i would be doing jazz any favors if I gigged jazz. Jazz wouldn't be doing me any favors either.

who's the musician here;

**Stevebol** · 02-03-2016, 01:48 PM

One thing I learned from the greatest dance band of the 80's- Cameo, is to find humor in life. You only live once so try to enjoy the ride no matter what you are trying to achieve.
Jazz, no jazz, it's all good.

**Hep To The Jive** · 02-03-2016, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by snoskier63

Too many musicians of all genres are way too full of themselves and their chosen art form. Why is it that people who don't appreciate Mingus, Coltrane, or even Halverson are too common or overly simple? I get that some among us have spent many years studying music in great detail, but while I think certain music sucks because to my ears it doesn't work harmonically, that doesn't mean I am too simple to understand what is happening. I can appreciate the harmonic movements academically, but aurally I still think they suck. On the other hand, I can diagnose a torn labrum or meniscus without any imaging. It's all about differences and variety. If we all liked the same things life would be unbearable. The more variety there is, the more likely people are to come up with new ideas. Eventually that will lead to something incredibly good.

Yeah, the jazz police is real! A friend of mine calls them Jazzholes, even better!

On one hand they lament that it's not popular, on the other they call those who are not involved 'commoners', 'squares', 'laymen' etc. Just look how they reacted to Whiplash movie, which I thought was brilliant. Mostly, though, it's not pros who saying this stuff, but some fans with complexes. If you are a gigging pro, you know you want to get as many people to appreciate your music as possible, whether you admit it or not. The fans can talk shit safely, though.

**henryrobinett** · 02-03-2016, 02:22 PM

I see as much or more snobbery from the jazz haters than I do the jazz lovers. I think it may be a reaction against the snobbery of the jazz fans/lovers. So many times its people doing things that are beyond their ability or knowledge or awareness. People tend to put things down they don't understand. Protective and defensive mechanism. Maybe they don't want to appear it feel stupid. So you attack what you don't know.

I've seen it with guitar players a lot. Instead of being amazed at somebody's ability these guys will instantly attack. "We want to all be mediocre! That guys threatening our comfort zone!"

**Hep To The Jive** · 02-03-2016, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

I see as much or more snobbery from the jazz haters than I do the jazz lovers. I think it may be a reaction against the snobbery of the jazz fans/lovers. So many times its people doing things that are beyond their ability or knowledge or awareness. People tend to put things down they don't understand. Protective and defensive mechanism. Maybe they don't want to appear it feel stupid. So you attack what you don't know.

I've seen it with guitar players a lot. Instead of being amazed at somebody's ability these guys will instantly attack. "We want to all be mediocre! That guys threatening our comfort zone!"

Yeah, sure, it goes both ways, but since this is about Why Jazz Isn't Popular on Jazz forum, it's more honest to look into our own probable faults first. There are some IMO.

I think guitar players who are jealous of other guitar players is a whole different issue, a very widespread phenomenon indeed

**MaxTwang** · 02-03-2016, 02:59 PM

Social perception has a lot to do with it, just saying...

**henryrobinett** · 02-03-2016, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Yeah, sure, it goes both ways, but since this is about Why Jazz Isn't Popular on Jazz forum, it's more honest to look into our own probable faults first. There are some IMO.

I think guitar players who are jealous of other guitar players is a whole different issue, a very widespread phenomenon indeed

Look at our faults first OF COURSE, but in order to answer the question you have to look at the totality. I've bent over backwards to listen to and be openly appreciative of all forms of music, especially after long ago being busted as a jazz bigot. You know, snob. But I rarely see it come back the other way. 9 times out of 10 when some guitar player finds out I'm a jazz guitarist they start arguing with me about it. Taking off where they left off with some jazz snob in college or at some bar. But I'm not THAT GUY!! Sheesh.

**Stevebol** · 02-03-2016, 03:23 PM

Are we all snobs in our own way?
I miss the old days doing dance music when a customer had to cough up $300 just to talk to me. I was easily worth $500.

**Hep To The Jive** · 02-03-2016, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by MaxTwang

Social perception has a lot to do with it, just saying...

haha, I wish!

I think that moment for jazz is gone, it's too respected now in society. Maybe that's a problem? Respected doesn't mean loved, doesn't mean popular. Rock'n'roll has replaced jazz as devil music long since... That's the image for the masses. Wanna do drugs and get laid a lot? Join a rock band! And who doesn't? Maybe now even rock has lost that vibe. I teach rock band classes for 10 year old kids, for God's sake!